RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths

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Politesub53 -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 4:26:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Hi Politesub I want no innocents incarcerated...and I'm not as sure as you that they are...Many have been released because of lack of evidence...And as you I want Gitmo closed...then inmates prosecuted or released...and that is what Obama is trying to do. But no one wants them... Just as an example say enemy soldier was captured in WWII… That soldier in most cases was incarcerated until the end of the war then freed under treaty with both sides releasing prisoners. Another example a terrorist or freedom fighter, depending on your perspective, is captured by US forces anywhere in the world…there are no borders in this war. We were faced with a difficult problem…what to do with them. An enemy soldier fighting for what he thinks right is different than terrorist killing innocents. We have both. The world failed... not just Bush in coming up with procedures to handle a fighter without a country at war. Now Obama is trying to come up with an answer himself because Europe refuses to help. He plans on doing just as you propose…prosecuting those with evidence of terrorism and releasing others who pledge not to return to the fight. It is a shame when Europe in particular looks down on the US for doing the necessary job they did not want to do. Now I’m not saying mistakes were not made…I think all evolved with practices like water boarding should be prosecuted here in the US… As a soldier I would not have done it…I would have refused…following orders is not an excuse for me. It is against our laws as well as world laws...There is no reason they should not be held accountable here. But because that happened does not relieve the worlds responsibility to stamp out, punish and imprison those that would commit atrocities on our people… And we need procedures to do it to make sure a Gitmo is not necessary in the future. I just want you to understand the problems evolved with just opening the gates and letting them go...Innocent people will die because of that action. Butch I understand only too well. We had the same problem here with the IRA, and I have stated previously I was against holding them without trial. I am not suggesting everyone who has been released from Gitmo was innocent, some may have been active terrorists, some may have been related to terrorists. That doesnt mean there arent any innocents who have been swept up in vast net cast in Afghanistan though.

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 4:45:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ~FR~ In the case of these three deaths, there was no evidence; they were among people some Afghans sold out (literally) to the U.S. and were picked up. All three were cleared and set to be released in just days. Then their bizarre ends--which are clearly murders, followed by cover up. Whatever else of all this is appropriate elsewhere, the facts provided here just don't add up. Proof give me proof ...I don't believe it... I could see an interrogation going bad on one person but not three...and if you killed three why not more...why not 10 or 20...why these three so called innocents as if you even know that...why not the truly bad ones...It does not make sense you are correct but because it happened does not mean they were murdered...Why do you people insist at making outlandish claims without proof. Clearly murdered my ass…there is nothing clear about what happened and you sure don’t know enough to be making that claim that you know beyond doubt. Butch Sweet Jesus, Butch. You are throwing a tantrum. I can picture you there lying on your tummy pounding your hands and feet, crying "Proof give me proof ...I don't believe it... " like a child. Read the damn Harper's Magazine article, make your own judgment and leave us in peace. You demanded to see a list of prisoners. I showed you a list of 759, many of whom had strange stories and some obviously not captured on a battlefield as you demand. Deceptive, because the fucking battlefield is wherever the president designates, and that is everywhere. You want "proof" but you will not believe anyone. WTF!? Go volunteer to be on the Combat Status Review Tribunal. File a Freedom of Information demand. Oh wait, that was done already. You want proof? Well tough shit, Butch. It is an imperfect world in which we live. Get over it. Meanwhile, your govt acted in your name to torture, murder, and incarcerate without habeas corpus, despite the decision by SCOTUS. It is disgusting.

Musicmystery -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 7:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ~FR~ In the case of these three deaths, there was no evidence; they were among people some Afghans sold out (literally) to the U.S. and were picked up. All three were cleared and set to be released in just days. Then their bizarre ends--which are clearly murders, followed by cover up. Whatever else of all this is appropriate elsewhere, the facts provided here just don't add up. Proof give me proof ...I don't believe it... I could see an interrogation going bad on one person but not three...and if you killed three why not more...why not 10 or 20...why these three so called innocents as if you even know that...why not the truly bad ones...It does not make sense you are correct but because it happened does not mean they were murdered...Why do you people insist at making outlandish claims without proof. Clearly murdered my ass…there is nothing clear about what happened and you sure don’t know enough to be making that claim that you know beyond doubt. Butch Read the article, Butch. It's what we're discussing. Then you'll be up to speed with the facts and the evidence. FYI, I caught an interview on CBC's "As It Happens" with Scott Horton: GITMO SUICIDE INVESTIGATIONS On June 10, 2006, the U.S. military reported that three men held in Guantanamo had been found dead in their cells the day before. These men --- Salah Al-Salami; Mani Al-Utaybi; and Yasser Al-Zahrani -- were the first to have died at the detention centre. Camp authorities said they had carried out a suicide pact. The commander of the Guantanamo facility, Rear Admiral Harry Harris, even went so far as to say that it was not an act of desperation, but "an act of asymmetrical warfare" waged against the U.S. Now, evidence is emerging that it may have been neither of the above. Scott Horton is a contributing editor at Harper's Magazine. He has pieced together an account of what might have really happened. We've reached him in New York. And I'll warn you that there are graphic details in this interview that might upset some listeners. [8\|] Give it a listen. Then read Scott Horton's article in Harper's: The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle It's long. That's because it contains a lot of facts and evidence. When you're actually informed about what the rest of us are discussing, then you can bluster senselessly if you still want.

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 10:58:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Read the article, Butch. It's what we're discussing. Then you'll be up to speed with the facts and the evidence. FYI, I caught an interview on CBC's "As It Happens" with Scott Horton: GITMO SUICIDE INVESTIGATIONS On June 10, 2006, the U.S. military reported that three men held in Guantanamo had been found dead in their cells the day before. These men --- Salah Al-Salami; Mani Al-Utaybi; and Yasser Al-Zahrani -- were the first to have died at the detention centre. Camp authorities said they had carried out a suicide pact. The commander of the Guantanamo facility, Rear Admiral Harry Harris, even went so far as to say that it was not an act of desperation, but "an act of asymmetrical warfare" waged against the U.S. Now, evidence is emerging that it may have been neither of the above. Scott Horton is a contributing editor at Harper's Magazine. He has pieced together an account of what might have really happened. We've reached him in New York. And I'll warn you that there are graphic details in this interview that might upset some listeners. [8\|] Give it a listen. Then read Scott Horton's article in Harper's: The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle It's long. That's because it contains a lot of facts and evidence. When you're actually informed about what the rest of us are discussing, then you can bluster senselessly if you still want. I did read it when you first linked it...it all sounds like stories made up to try and incriminate Gitmo ...no proof just supposition. The truth may be exactly what the Gitmo command said… I am not saying these men were not questioned in illegal ways and there is a possibility that one may have been killed and a lesser that all three may have been killed….but there is no proof and to say as you did that it was fact is wrong. More investigation needs to be done before it becomes fact. Truth has a way of coming out over the years as those who could be held responsible pass on…we may hear and understand more then…but for now making accusations as fact does no one good. Butch

Musicmystery -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 1:12:57 PM)
Well, Butch, if you believe the official account, including the ridiculously impossible way they were supposedly killed, I can only hope we meet in a sales capacity. Take care.

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 1:49:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Well, Butch, if you believe the official account, including the ridiculously impossible way they were supposedly killed, I can only hope we meet in a sales capacity. Take care. Here in St Louis there was a killer that lured ladies into BDSM to his basement...Where he would torture them then kill them. After many victims they finally caught him because he used Mapquest to send a map to a victim. He was arrested and put on suicide watch in a suicide cell under remote cameras. He hung himself…it only took a few seconds but he managed it. You can most likely find the particulars on how he did it in the St Louis Post Dispatch. People were saying the same thing…Police brutality…until the videos were reviewed and they saw how he did it…Quite amazing what people will do if they truly want to commit suicide…Especially if it were designed to look like a murder…Not beyond people that would drive a bomb filled car into a girls school because of their fanatic religious beliefs. One…I want Gitmo closed Two.. If there were murders I want those responsible caught and prosecuted. Three… Until there is proof for prosecution they are innocent…that is how it works below your border. Butch

Aneirin -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 8:01:52 PM)
quote: Three… Until there is proof for prosecution they are innocent…that is how it works below your border. Exactly, so wtf are they doing being held in a prison where no laws it seems governs ? Honestly, it seems as if that those who are guilty of x crimes are being punished now, because there is no evidence available or can be created that sticks, their release is envitable, so those that imprison them, are letting the prisoners know, hey we have all this power over defenceless people, and may you not forget it.

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 9:40:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: Three… Until there is proof for prosecution they are innocent…that is how it works below your border. Exactly, so wtf are they doing being held in a prison where no laws it seems governs ? Honestly, it seems as if that those who are guilty of x crimes are being punished now, because there is no evidence available or can be created that sticks, their release is envitable, so those that imprison them, are letting the prisoners know, hey we have all this power over defenceless people, and may you not forget it. Is a soldier fighting for his country a criminal?...But if he is captured he is kept in prison... If spies are caught they are put in prison... Now we have soldiers fighting for a religion and way of life and spies that help them…they are at Gitmo. I’m explaining to you one more time because you never read what I say...but this is it. What do you do with the above people? They may not be criminals but they are combatants and people who helped them fight in one-way or another. There is no world law covering them…just as there is no world law for the Somalia pirates. You told me to let them go and if they fight they can just take a chance of getting killed…I hope you don’t have any children fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq…Would you not be a little dismayed if your child was killed by a fighter freed from Gitmo? Or people collect information that allows them to blow up another subway in the UK…maybe with your mother on it. You see there has to be another way agreed upon by the major powers of the world as to what to do with these people. Before they are just set free to kill again. Butch

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 9:00:24 AM)
quote: What do you do with the above people? They may not be criminals but they are combatants and people who helped them fight in one-way or another. Butch, in this statement you have convicted them without trial. Can you not see the error?

Musicmystery -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 9:07:10 AM)
quote: Quite amazing what people will do if they truly want to commit suicide…Especially if it were designed to look like a murder…Not beyond people that would drive a bomb filled car into a girls school because of their fanatic religious beliefs. No. Far, far beyond the physically possible. Ridiculously physically impossible. And all three at the same time, in the same way, in separate cells. You've also ignored the evidence that there was no evidence against these detainees, that these were three Afghans picked up on paid tips---and yet you've already convicted them too. Your standards shift depending on where you feel like standing at the moment.

Kirata -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 9:13:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub They may not be criminals but they are combatants and people who helped them fight in one-way or another. You do realize that this (the highlighted part) would apply to every single citizen of a combatant nation, and that it is therefore a fond conceit in the heart of every terrorist because it can be used to justify virtually any act of murder or mayhem committed against civilian populations. K.

DomKen -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 9:43:17 AM)
What I find puzzling is how obvious this situation is. 3 guys tied their wrists and ankles, gagged themselves and hung themsleves simultaneously? Really? If these really are the highest value terrorist prisoners why aren't they under 24/7 video surveillance? These men were murdered shortly before their release, probably IMO because they had been tortured and intended to so say publicly. To deny that obvious fact is much like the pro death penalty sorts who kept denying that an innocent would ever be executed, until of course the evidence became overwhelming. The same thing will happen here BTW, once the evidence cannot be denied those who support holding and torturing random men from muslim nations will havd wave away the murders as aberations or insist that the new safeguards will prevent it from happening again or some other justification for not examing their beliefs in reality's harsh light.

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 10:30:37 AM)
quote: Here in St Louis there was a killer that lured ladies into BDSM to his basement...Where he would torture them then kill them. After many victims they finally caught him because he used Mapquest to send a map to a victim. He was arrested and put on suicide watch in a suicide cell under remote cameras. He hung himself…it only took a few seconds but he managed it. You can most likely find the particulars on how he did it in the St Louis Post Dispatch. Give us a name, Butch. At least a name. How can we verify your accusation? Seriously.

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 11:47:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: What do you do with the above people? They may not be criminals but they are combatants and people who helped them fight in one-way or another. Butch, in this statement you have convicted them without trial. Can you not see the error? Vince in WWII we did not bring them to trial...In Korea we did not bring them to trial...these are soldiers mostly...Yes there are some terrorists and they are to be brought to trial...long over due that’s for sure. Can you not see the difference...and by the way...I can't lie on my tummy beating my hands and feet...unless someone is there to pick me up...I'm still healing from L2 thru L5 posterior fusion surgery….but I do like all the drugs…me and Rush we know how nice it is…lol In the former wars we had a country to negotiate release of prisoners…there is no country now. That is why I am saying over and over we need world laws to cover these men and women. I too believe Gitmo has damaged our countries perception but only because those people are not thinking realistically. They point fingers but will not take responsibility for released prisoners. I understand them not wanting them but then stop bitching if we keep them. You…I… really do not know the circumstances of these prisoners…just as in WWII there was no detailed information about how soldiers were captured. You may be right about their circumstance but you have no more real proof then I have. I am a realist I understand in war you must keep soldiers and spies and you must collect intelligence information…and you must have a place to keep them. But you don’t torture them…and I hope the people responsible are brought to justice. I mean it must be OK to cut the heads off our boys but no way to dip them in water …maybe we should switch tactics since there is less bitching about decapitation then water boarding. Then we would not need a Gitmo. Sounds dumb huh…well so do you folks in your just let them go to kill again attitudes. One more thing…I am for intense investigations into allegations made of abuses but the basic need and reasoning for Gitmo and how to dismantle it is a different subject. Butch

thornhappy -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 8:13:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy Damn, things have gotten sporty since they put away the mod sticks. Really now. Calling someone a lazy forum fucker on a Monday night. lol, thorn I had a thread on that. What is a good night to call someone that? Thursday night? I believe that Friday night would be a good night to do that. So then you can drink in consolation and not worry about getting to work the next day!

AnimusRex -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 9:49:14 PM)
I am thinking of adding "Lazy Forum Fucker" to my list of titles. Has a nice ring to it.

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 9:55:23 PM)
Vince it has been awhile maybe Lockit will remember the name...I'll see if I can find it. If you talk to her first ask...so will I I'm sure she will remember..it was big news here. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 10:13:28 PM)
Vince I believe his name was Maury Travis His mother tried to sue the jail because he was found hanged with his hands tied behind his back...even though he was monitored...a guard checked him every 15 minutes and another inmate across from his cell was also asked to watch over him... Evidently there was a blind spot in his cell where he committed suicide... The guy was an animal there are videos you can look at he took of killing the girls. There is no reason for the guards to hang him he just got there and was only there on suspicion not convicted. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/24/2010 10:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Here in St Louis there was a killer that lured ladies into BDSM to his basement...Where he would torture them then kill them. After many victims they finally caught him because he used Mapquest to send a map to a victim. He was arrested and put on suicide watch in a suicide cell under remote cameras. He hung himself…it only took a few seconds but he managed it. You can most likely find the particulars on how he did it in the St Louis Post Dispatch. Give us a name, Butch. At least a name. How can we verify your accusation? Seriously. Vince when you get to know me better you will know I don't make up anything I state as fact to the best of my recollection...but you don't know me so I understand. It seems this happened 8 years ago so when you do the research you will find I was pretty close to the facts...8 years is a long time. You seem like the sort I could trust I hope you can do the same with me. Butch

blacksword404 -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/25/2010 12:41:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The article gives this as the official story from the NCIS report: According to the NCIS, each prisoner had fashioned a noose from torn sheets and T-shirts and tied it to the top of his cell’s eight-foot-high steel-mesh wall. Each prisoner was able somehow to bind his own hands, and, in at least one case, his own feet, then stuff more rags deep down into his own throat. We are then asked to believe that each prisoner, even as he was choking on those rags, climbed up on his washbasin, slipped his head through the noose, tightened it, and leapt from the washbasin to hang until he asphyxiated. The NCIS report also proposes that the three prisoners, who were held in non-adjoining cells, carried out each of these actions almost simultaneously. I try to be wary of conspiracy theories but after Abu Ghraib and some other bullshit stories we have been given, I don't understand how anyone can read the details without suspicion. I don't understand how the current Justice Department can pass this by. But then I also don't understand how the current Justice Dept and the Senate investigating committees can pass by the allegations of torture at Gitmo and CIA locations around the world. Are we all just like Shultz, the German prison guard in "Hogan's Heros" who happily repeated over and over "I know NOTHING." Then are we not all complicit? Is Obama any different from Bush the Little? What caught my eye about it was the rags in their throats. Remember the descriptions of how waterboarding was done, by placing a rag over the prisoner's faces? It does sound like a cover-up. Who uses two different types of asphyxiation to commit suicide. Sounds like they maybe they were being tortured, had rags down their throats. Something happened. They were left alone for some time. And while they were alone they choked because of the rags. So since they died of asphyxiation you use hanging to explain it. But this sounds like overkill. Tied their hands, and feet. Stuffed rags down their throat. And hung themselves. Possible I guess if they were trying to make some type of statement with their deaths. But not likely.

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