RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 7:28:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And the fact remains, Level, that until the fetus is 20 weeks along, no OB/GYN will stop pre-term labor because the fetus is not viable outside the womb.



And the fact remains that just because it isn't "viable outside the womb", does not take away what it is.

quote:

wyldhrt:


I like you, Level, but here is where we agree to disagree. Really, "convenience?" Are you serious? Believe what you want, but for most, making the decision to abort is agonizing. It is hardly something scheduled between a nail appointment and taking the dog to the vet for a flea dip, FFS.


Well, I like you too; one doesn't have to dislike someone, to disagree with them.

"Convenience" was put in quotes, both to signify that I did not see it as something as mundane as "taking the dog to the vet", but also to show that it was NOT a matter of medical emergency, for the vast majority of women having them.

I'm not stupid, I realize that it isn't an easy thing, for what I'd guess is almost (not quite, though) every woman going through it. The fact that it's hard doesn't make what it is totally acceptable to me.

Having said that, I don't look down on those who've done it, I don't retract my friendship from them, and I don't wish them ill.




Growing up, i would listen to my mother and her friends talk about the mistakes they made having kids at young ages. The only brith control thats 100% is abstinence ( the second a hysterectomy, but pregnancies can still occur in the abdominal cavity... just an fyi). If men were the ones who were getting pregnant, who were carrying the child 9 months, then raising it solo in many cases, this would be a non-issue. Sorry fellas, its not your place. And you can thank the one's who planted seed and ran before you. But dont blame a woman, who made one mistake, because she did not want to compound it with another. i raised mine alone. i made that choice. NEVER would i tell another woman to make the same decision because i dont live her life.

what gives anyone that right?

nothing.

butt out unless you are willing to step in and stay there.




Level -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 7:36:08 AM)

If someone has a part in creating a child, damn right they should "stay in there". Leaving a child, and the mother, to fend for themselves, is contemptable, and not nearly enough is done to remedy that.

What gives someone the "right" to speak out on this, is the fact that some of us, male and female, see abortion as the taking of a life. People can get indignant as all fuck, it don't matter to me, if you or anyone expects silent compliance when the subject is brought up, they can expect to be disappointed.




truckinslave -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 8:15:11 AM)

quote:


I don't regret it, nor do many others- that's what you somehow don't understand.




Well, you're right insofar as I don't know how anyone could fail to regret an abortion. Certainly no one in my family could, as far as I know.
But that poses a dilemma about the airing of the ad, doees it not?
Those who do not, truly, regret having an abortion will not be upset or offended by the commercial.
Those who do regret having had one should, I believe, be willing to help others come to the other decision.
Those who haven't had an abortion and are offended? Are they actually pro abortion?




truckinslave -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 8:27:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:



Congrats to the nice relationship you and your son-in-law have. Too bad you feel its all about you.

This ad is being promoted to help those who are sitting on the fence. Sorry, there are so very few who are on the fence about this issue. This ad is going to change no one's mind. Its merely an ad to promote hate under the guise of love. And thats truly the saddest part of all this.


That's either a complete misrepresentation or a complete misunderstanding. It's about the baby, which I advised my daughter to adopt out. Never was about me. The relationship with my son-in-law, which I described in part as a surprise, was in my view one othose unexpected benefits that often flow from good choices.
Promote hate? That you can reach that conclusion without having seen the ad seems to me a projection of  bitterness or hate all by itself. All anyone professes to want to do, and all I believe anyone will do, is celebrate a very difficult decision to have a baby. And, admittedly, imo, undoubtedly hope it reinforces the choice of some struggling pregnant women to have their child, hope it helps some to reach that decision, and maybe even change the minds of some who are leaning in the direction of killing their own unborn child.
If you see hate there you're looking in a mirror, not at what we know of the ad.
I would bet a lot of money there will be nothing- nothing!- directed at women who have aborted.




camille65 -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 8:28:37 AM)

FR

No matter how a person feels about abortion, one fact remains. They will occur. They will occur whether a woman uses herbs or surgery, my priority is to make sure that women stay safe no matter what choice they make.

That is why I am pro choice, because I see the importance of assuring that women who terminate their pregnancies can do so in a way that is medically safe.

There is no way to unring the bell folks, termination of pregancy has been going on as long as women have been conceiving and it will continue. I'd rather women be able to turn to a reputable and safe doctor rather than experiment with homemade concoctions or having to go to someone who is unsafe and doesn't care about medical proceedures.





truckinslave -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 8:32:00 AM)

"butt out unless you are willing to step in and stay there"
One of the side evils of abortion is that it "butts men out". Those who beg women not to abort, who want to take their child and take full responsibility for it, have absolutely no rights in the matter.
Nor does the baby.




Aynne88 -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 9:22:10 AM)

Baby? It is far from a baby. It's a zygote, a clump of cells, whatever term at that stage, but baby? Emotional tactics to provoke emotional response. Like the bullshit made up term "Partial birth abortion." That does not exist in the medical community.

Look, women will have abortions no matter what. For now it is still legal in this country, but you know what will happen if it isn't kept that way? I do. I am determined to never ever be a mother. At 43, I don't think I have to worry much, but If I were to get pregnant 10 years ago, and abortion were illegal here, luckily I have the means and resources to go out of the country and find a place where it is legal. So, who is left? Poor women of course, without the financial resources to obtain an abortion, so she is forced to have the child. Therefore adding yet another child she can't afford to pay for, so who does....we do. So, for all of you Republicans against welfare, ummmm, you might want to rethink your plan.

Because we all know how generous you are when it comes to social programs.[8|]. Oh and please spare me the "then keep your legs closed" bullshit, because most of you guys have a hard enough time getting laid as it is, so encouraging us to keep 'em closed won't exactly help you out.




kittinSol -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 9:52:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
Oh and please spare me the "then keep your legs closed" bullshit, because most of you guys have a hard enough time getting laid as it is, so encouraging us to keep 'em closed won't exactly help you out.


[sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]




Aynne88 -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 10:01:36 AM)



Merci~ I tried. And well....you know it's the truth. So do they.[;)]




WildRebel -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 2:47:48 PM)

Although I'm pro-life I'm not really that crazy about commercials involving political and/or social issues airing during the Super Bowl.  If CBS or the NFL wanted to keep it from airing I wouldn't blame them, and I'm not sure it wouldn't be the best decision.  But I'll wait until I actually see the commercial before I judge it. 




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 3:15:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

If someone has a part in creating a child, damn right they should "stay in there". Leaving a child, and the mother, to fend for themselves, is contemptable, and not nearly enough is done to remedy that.

What gives someone the "right" to speak out on this, is the fact that some of us, male and female, see abortion as the taking of a life. People can get indignant as all fuck, it don't matter to me, if you or anyone expects silent compliance when the subject is brought up, they can expect to be disappointed.



Damned good post. If someone truly believes that abortion is murder, it absolutely is their business to speak up about it. It's not just their right, it's their moral obligation. If that irritates people, they're just going to have to find a way to live with being irritated.




Level -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 3:51:19 PM)

Thank you, Panda.




tazzygirl -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 4:37:33 PM)

LOL

How funny! Men coming out to say they want to take care of the child, and the mother has no right to say otherwise. Do any of you understand the complications of becoming pregnant? That bearing a child is a risk in itself? Any idea what it was like before Roe? Backstreet abortions? Dirty tables and instruments? Women dying because of botched jobs or infections? Dr's not wanting to treat them because they HAD an abortion?

Add to this the following...

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[8]

And the effectiveness of contraceptives...

CONTRACEPTIVE USE
• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[9]

• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[9]

• Eight percent of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.[9]

• About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives. Most of these women have practiced contraception in the past.[1,10]

And include the following...

MEDICATION ABORTION
• In September 2000, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the abortion drug mifepristone to be marketed in the United States as an alternative to surgical abortion.

• In 2005, 57% of abortion providers, or 1,026 facilities, provided one or more medication abortions, a 70% increase from the first half of 2001. At least 10% of nonhospital abortion providers offer only medication abortion services.[2]

• Medication abortion accounted for 13% of all abortions, and 22% of abortions before nine weeks’ gestation, in 2005.[2]

SAFETY OF ABORTION
• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[12]

• Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or birth defect, and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.[13]

• Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other cancers.[13]

• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[14]

• The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[15]

• Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[16]

• Teens are more likely than older women to delay having an abortion until after 15 weeks of pregnancy, when the medical risks associated with abortion are significantly higher.[17 ]

And now, legalities...

LAW AND POLICY
• In the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court ruled that women, in consultation with their physician, have a constitutionally protected right to have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancythat is, before viability—free from government interference.

• In 1992, the Court reaffirmed the right to abortion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. However, the ruling significantly weakened the legal protections previously afforded women and physicians by giving states the right to enact restrictions that do not create an “undue burden” for women seeking abortion.

• Thirty-five states currently enforce parental consent or notification laws for minors seeking an abortion. The Supreme Court ruled that minors must have an alternative to parental involvement, such as the ability to seek a court order authorizing the procedure.[18]

• Even without specific parental involvement laws, six in 10 minors who have an abortion report that at least one parent knew about it.[19]

• Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman’s life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy or in cases of rape or incest.

• Seventeen states use public funds to pay for abortions for some poor women, but only four do so voluntarily; the rest do so under a court order.[20] About 13% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds[21] (virtually all from state governments).[22]

• Family planning clinics funded under Title X of the federal Public Health Service Act have helped women prevent 20 million unintended pregnancies during the last 20 years. An estimated nine million of these pregnancies would have ended in abortion.[23]


http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Repeatedly on these boards, from many who are vocally in opposition to abortions cite the constitutional rights of freedom of speech among others. THIS constitutional right is different how?





Level -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 5:07:16 PM)

Speaking for myself:

Just because it's in the Constitution does not make it right. It was once unconstitutional for a woman to vote; that was rightly corrected.

Are abortions a "risk"? Of course. Does that risk outweigh another's life?

I've said it before: I can understand it when a woman's life is in imminent danger. I can also understand, if not agree with, abortion when there has been rape or incest.




tazzygirl -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 5:20:44 PM)

Im not trying to sound condecending, but, you cannot possibly understand the mindset of a woman who discovers she is pregnant. I really wish you could. I really do.




Jeffff -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 5:30:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im not trying to sound condecending, but, you cannot possibly understand the mindset of a woman who discovers she is pregnant. I really wish you could. I really do.


Tazzy?, let me say that I believe in a woman's right to choose, but it isn't neccesary that he understands a womans mindset. Is it neccesary that I understand how a woman feels to support the right of choice?

He is entitled to his core beliefs. Level has been.......well....level through this whole debate.

People won't change their minds, the Tebow add won't change anyone's mind.




KatyLied -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 5:43:34 PM)

quote:

I can also understand, if not agree with, abortion when there has been rape or incest.


I have never understood how the value of "less" is placed on a child conceived by rape or incest.  I am pro-choice and I have never understood this.




Level -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 5:50:59 PM)

It isn't "less", Katy.

It's that I have far more sympathy with the mother. As I stated, I said I still can disagree in those instances.

It's the difference between "I'm just not ready for a kid", and an 18 year old being dragged into an alley and gang-raped and impregnated.




tazzygirl -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 6:01:45 PM)

Only an 18 year old can be raped? How about date rape? Or rape by a husband? Or a 40 year old woman who has been raped? Whats the difference between a woman who has been raped and a woman who does not want to be pregnant? In both instances, its an unwanted situation, no?




Level -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 6:07:12 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Only an 18 year old can be raped? How about date rape? Or rape by a husband? Or a 40 year old woman who has been raped?


Shaking my head here....

quote:

Whats the difference between a woman who has been raped and a woman who does not want to be pregnant? In both instances, its an unwanted situation, no?


Surely you see the difference...




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