RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (Full Version)

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truckinslave -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 7:21:11 PM)

Until you try to harm/kill someone else I have some general agreement.




tazzygirl -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 8:19:11 PM)

And who would you be referring too? A non-viable life form? Or yourself when i spoke of cutting off your balls? Or perhaps the woman who enjoyed your company, and cock, and got pregnant and had to make the decision as to what to do after all the risks are explained?

Im curious... who is being harmed?




truckinslave -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 8:57:46 PM)

Some 12 years ago my youngest daughter was born at a gestational age of 23 weeks with a birth weight of just over one and one half pounds. When she finally got to come home I'm the one who quit work to care for her.
I just put her to bed. Don't tell me about "non-viable life forms".

It's the baby I care about- and only the baby.




Brain -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 9:15:51 PM)

Apples and oranges, so there is no comparison with child support. But to answer your question, your kid is your responsibility, not the taxpayers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Usually I have the remote and I avoid watching commercials but I look forward to hearing what the lady has to say. I doubt she can change my mind that a woman has the right to do what she wants to her own body. As if men would accept someone else telling them what to do if men were having babies. And I will never believe embryos have souls. I don’t like late term abortions and I don’t think the doctors who do it take it lightly. I think late term abortions are done because of health of the mother like the doctor who was murdered said during an interview of him I saw; what he said was very reasonable. There is no melt down or fuss from me.


If I have the right to do what I want with my body, why do I have to pay child support if she proves paternity?
Just looking for a little consistency here....    there are so many surefire arguments against that "her own body" riff that I tire of making them, and it's a side issue anyway.





truckinslave -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 9:58:01 PM)

"But to answer your question, your kid is your responsibility, not the taxpayers"

I have no problem, financially or otherwise, taking care of my kids. I do have problems, financially and otherwise, taking care of other peoples.

But you missed the point, and I'm tired. C'est la guerre....... 





slvemike4u -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 10:11:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Usually I have the remote and I avoid watching commercials but I look forward to hearing what the lady has to say. I doubt she can change my mind that a woman has the right to do what she wants to her own body. As if men would accept someone else telling them what to do if men were having babies. And I will never believe embryos have souls. I don’t like late term abortions and I don’t think the doctors who do it take it lightly. I think late term abortions are done because of health of the mother like the doctor who was murdered said during an interview of him I saw; what he said was very reasonable. There is no melt down or fuss from me.


If I have the right to do what I want with my body, why do I have to pay child support if she proves paternity?
Just looking for a little consistency here....    there are so many surefire arguments against that "her own body" riff that I tire of making them, and it's a side issue anyway.


Because you DID what you wanted with your body, abandoned your sperm, and left them in the care of another. Sorta like kids with a babysitter. Pst... you are still responsible.

But your argument would lean more towards the abotion end, not the anti-abortion. Even men who claim they are against always fall back to this argument, showing they are all for it, as long as they dont have to be responsible for their own actions, and the outcome of said actions.


No no no. You don't get to tell me what my positions are.
I would force DNA from every man accused of fathering children, and damned well collect child support from him. I'm tired of paying for the little bastards.

As far as looking for consistency, while I admit it is evil following evil, or two wrongs not making a right- if she gets to kill the baby, so do I.
Now I understand...they are "little bastards" after they are brought to term.....but prior to viability they are just precious defenseless victims of murder?
Interesting take on conservitive family values.......do you guys really listen to your own arguments.....are do you just throw bullshit against the wall and see what sticks?




Kirata -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/29/2010 10:23:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now I understand...they are "little bastards" after they are brought to term.....but prior to viability they are just precious defenseless victims of murder?

Well after all, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Being little bastards after they're brought to term doesn't rule out them still being precious, or them being precious defenseless little bastards until then.

[:D]

K.




Level -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 3:34:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

WICHITA, Kan. - A man who said he killed prominent Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in order to save the lives of unborn children was convicted Friday of murder.
The jury deliberated for just 37 minutes before finding Scott Roeder, 51, of Kansas City, Mo., guilty of premeditated, first-degree murder in the May 31 shooting death.


DOes this change the tone of this debate at all?

Is this pro-life?


Good, and difficult, question, Jeff.

I sympathize with him. But he did murder the doctor, and he does deserve life in prison. Killing isn't the answer to changing things, in this matter, but I do have to tell a little piece of me to "shut up", as it isn't always in agreement with me on such topics.

And, as I always do in abortion threads, here's a reprint of something I posted a few years ago:

"According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of the nation’s leading abortion provider, Planned Parenthood:

At current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45.

Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.

Fifty-two percent of U.S. women having abortions are younger than 25 years old.

About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3 "






Social Reasons (given as primary reason)


- Feels unready for responsibility
21%

- Feels she can't afford baby
21%

- Concern for how baby would change her life
16%

- Relationship problem
12%

- Feels she isn't mature enough
11%

- Has all the children she wants
8%

- Other reasons
4-5%




TOTAL:
93%


"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)


- Mother's Health
3%

- Baby may have health problem
3%

- Rape or Incest
1%





TOTAL:



7%



Source: Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?"
Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20 No. 4 (July/August 1988) p. 170.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, there has been nearly 40,000,000 abortions in the United States from 1973 through 1998. If the above cited statistics are correct, that means over 37,000,000 were for "convience".
-------------------
Week 3

At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus. Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun. The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming. The heart has begun to form.

Week 5

The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one. The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible. Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun. The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow. The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo.

Week 7

Major organs have all begun to form. The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s. Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible. Facial features are also observable. The eyes have a retina and lens. The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move.

Weeks 9-12

The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office. Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver. The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed. The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week. Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed. Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums. Fetus can make a fist with its finger. Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus.

And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here is one of many links: http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm




WyldHrt -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 4:22:06 AM)

Back on topic, and with a slightly different perspective.
Many here have said, "Who could object to a celebration of life?"
While I don't know what the commercial entails specifically; given the info about the content that has been posted on the web, I'll raise my hand.

As one who has had to make that decision, and at a rather young age, about the last thing I care to see during the freaking Superbowl is a reminder of one of the most painful parts of my life. I can't even imagine the reaction of the women who have recently had an abortion or made the decision to have one, especially those that have no clue that such an "advertisement" will be played during the game.

CBS has rather made it a policy to keep political ads out of Superbowl Sunday, for good reason. Pity they didn't choose to keep it that way.




tazzygirl -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 4:24:01 AM)

And the fact remains, Level, that until the fetus is 20 weeks along, no OB/GYN will stop pre-term labor because the fetus is not viable outside the womb.

Interesting site, Level. But one glaring fact was omitted, not that it surprises me.

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women aged <25 years (52%), women who were white (57%), and unmarried women (81%). Fifty-eight percent of all abortions for which gestational age was reported were performed at <8 weeks of gestation, and 88% were performed before 13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2000, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks of gestation. Few abortions were performed after 15 weeks of gestation; 4.3% were obtained at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% were obtained at >21 weeks. A total of 31 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 1.0% of all reported procedures from the 42 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

Eighty-nine percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, 2004.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Now, hopefully, with the morning after pill, many of these will be unnecessary.





WyldHrt -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 4:35:26 AM)

quote:

that means over 37,000,000 were for "convience"

I like you, Level, but here is where we agree to disagree. Really, "convenience?" Are you serious? Believe what you want, but for most, making the decision to abort is agonizing. It is hardly something scheduled between a nail appointment and taking the dog to the vet for a flea dip, FFS.




truckinslave -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 5:57:33 AM)

That fatherless children are little bastards is simply a matter of fact.
That I am tired of paying for them is another matter of fact.




subrob1967 -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 6:06:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Pro abortion= pushing women to aborting their viable fetus
Pro choice = letting the woman make an informed choice about her many possible choices
stupid question really


Hardly stupid

For the record  you're ok with someone having the right to murder an innocent child, as long as they have an "informed choice"?

Your bullshit definition isn't flying here, being "pro choice" is exactly the same as being "pro abortion".  you're either against murdering babies, or for it.




truckinslave -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 6:17:44 AM)

My older daughter got pregnant out of wedlock. All the relevant parties (which we considered to include all the grandparents) discussed options (abortion not really being one of them, according to me and her). I was for giving the baby up for adoption, with my wife and I as potential adoptees if necessary (ages, then, 55/49). The two parents got married some three weeks before the birth; my granddaughter turns three this week. After a somewhat rocky start, the happy couple seem to be doing well, one of the surprises to some being the excellent relationship my son in law and I have. I think he makes a great husband and father; he is grateful to have someone in the family who has dealy with PTSD and survivor's guilt himself.
Anyway.... lots of people have had to make decisions.
I'm sure many women regret having made a decision to abort. I personally believe that this ad will be produced and intended not with an intent  to acerbate that regret, that pain, but to prevent others from ever having to feel it at all.
It will, in its effect, be about the future, not the past.




Lucylastic -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 6:23:10 AM)

Dont put words in my mouth just because you cant get your head around MY rights as a living person, over those of a possible life.
Ive had four possible lives that werent
dont dare to infer that you are better placed to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body, just so I can be an incubator for your conscience






WyldHrt -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 6:40:19 AM)

quote:

My older daughter got pregnant out of wedlock. All the relevant parties (which we considered to include all the grandparents) discussed options (abortion not really being one of them, according to me and her). I was for giving the baby up for adoption, with my wife and I as potential adoptees if necessary (ages, then, 55/49). The two parents got married some three weeks before the birth; my granddaughter turns three this week. After a somewhat rocky start, the happy couple seem to be doing well, one of the surprises to some being the excellent relationship my son in law and I have. I think he makes a great husband and father; he is grateful to have someone in the family who has dealy with PTSD and survivor's guilt himself.
Anyway.... lots of people have had to make decisions.

How nice for you and yours. That said, please don't assume your experience is common when it comes to unwanted pregnancy.
quote:

I'm sure many women regret having made a decision to abort. I personally believe that this ad will be produced and intended not with an intent  to acerbate that regret, that pain, but to prevent others from ever having to feel it at all.
It will, in its effect, be about the future, not the past.

I don't regret it, nor do many others- that's what you somehow don't understand.





Level -> RE: Tim Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 7:12:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And the fact remains, Level, that until the fetus is 20 weeks along, no OB/GYN will stop pre-term labor because the fetus is not viable outside the womb.



And the fact remains that just because it isn't "viable outside the womb", does not take away what it is.

quote:

wyldhrt:


I like you, Level, but here is where we agree to disagree. Really, "convenience?" Are you serious? Believe what you want, but for most, making the decision to abort is agonizing. It is hardly something scheduled between a nail appointment and taking the dog to the vet for a flea dip, FFS.


Well, I like you too; one doesn't have to dislike someone, to disagree with them.

"Convenience" was put in quotes, both to signify that I did not see it as something as mundane as "taking the dog to the vet", but also to show that it was NOT a matter of medical emergency, for the vast majority of women having them.

I'm not stupid, I realize that it isn't an easy thing, for what I'd guess is almost (not quite, though) every woman going through it. The fact that it's hard doesn't make what it is totally acceptable to me.

Having said that, I don't look down on those who've done it, I don't retract my friendship from them, and I don't wish them ill.




Jeffff -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 7:16:11 AM)

Level... you are a really good guy.


Jeff




tazzygirl -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 7:22:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

My older daughter got pregnant out of wedlock. All the relevant parties (which we considered to include all the grandparents) discussed options (abortion not really being one of them, according to me and her). I was for giving the baby up for adoption, with my wife and I as potential adoptees if necessary (ages, then, 55/49). The two parents got married some three weeks before the birth; my granddaughter turns three this week. After a somewhat rocky start, the happy couple seem to be doing well, one of the surprises to some being the excellent relationship my son in law and I have. I think he makes a great husband and father; he is grateful to have someone in the family who has dealy with PTSD and survivor's guilt himself.
Anyway.... lots of people have had to make decisions.
I'm sure many women regret having made a decision to abort. I personally believe that this ad will be produced and intended not with an intent  to acerbate that regret, that pain, but to prevent others from ever having to feel it at all.
It will, in its effect, be about the future, not the past.


Congrats to the nice relationship you and your son-in-law have. Too bad you feel its all about you.

This ad is being promoted to help those who are sitting on the fence. Sorry, there are so very few who are on the fence about this issue. This ad is going to change no one's mind. Its merely an ad to promote hate under the guise of love. And thats truly the saddest part of all this.




Level -> RE: Tom Tebow's Mom. (1/30/2010 7:23:37 AM)

Thanks, Jeff, feeling is mutual, my friend.

Well, my place-kicking ad idea didn't float, maybe we could get Ray Lewis to spike an infant in the end zone, and have John Madden doing a voice over: "Choose to score, score one for choice"?

[8D]




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