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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 2:22:17 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		May I have everybody's attention,
while I pull out the Vanilla Extract this moment.

I say Vanilla Extract because I'm going to Extract a concept from the so called Vanila world. All too often The BDSM Community likes to paint things out as being eithically driven, consentual, safe and even sane. While we are just as fucking crazy as the vanilla's, our ethics vary just like the vanilla's, we do shit that is a bit risky just like vanilla's do, and everything is not always fully consentual even. GASP...

Pardon me, do I have your permisson to Play a Practice Joke on you? Excuse me, may I have permission to Lead you on and see how Gullable you are?

Time to "Tear Down the Wall" (going Pink FLoyd on everybody's ass for a moment).

Seriously, the same concepts and rules of engagement in the Vanilla world regarding, Mind Fucks, Practical Jokes, Leading somebody on, Pranks and Cranks... well apply here in BDSM land. We like to believe that we are the DisneyLand of it all, with our fancy St. Andrews crosses and other fun excieting rides, but the truth is that... underneath our Latex Micky Mouse suits we are human beings identical in nature to the rest of the human race.

If you know somebody can't deal with practical jokes very well, it's best to not fuck around with 'em. Then again, it's enteratining to pull practical Jokes on those that don't deal with it very well. Can be pure fucking enteraining fun. It all depends upon how they Deal with it.

Are there going to be moments, when perhaps the target of such things will get round up, perhaps pissed off, scared silly, perhaps be dumb founded, or humilated? You betcha they will, and this is all 100% for real. You betcha it is. Now us Dom/mes or Tops will get the same exact charge or thrill as our Vanilla Prankesters peers do. We will take pleasure, entertainment, laughter, and Glee in it afterwards... all that the expense of our victims. Those wonderul yummy targets to our sadistic yet comical deceptions.

Anyways, the eithics involved in BDSMland are the same eithical issues the Vanilla world faces. In regards to who can or can not take a good joke or mind fuck, the same skillsets in figuring that out in the Vanilla world apply here.

When's the last time you seen somebody ask for permission to slip to the bathroom to put Red KoolAid in the shower head, while in the middle of watching a scarey movie, knowing damn well your target victim plans on taking a shower after watching an extremely Intense Horror/Gore movie with lots of blood in it? No, this simply is not how mind fucks work, either in the Vanilla or BDSM world.

In fact, it's almost better to catch your victim outside of a scene play for added effectiveness, this is when they have their guard down. Wait, I can't believe I just said that. None, the less... timing can be everything. Also, the mood of your victim factors into things.

I know us Dominants/Tops like to be in control of everything, however when we engage playing a MIND FUCK, we have no control over how our victims are going to truely react. In a sense, it can be a little scarey. Which is part of the reason we ourselves get a charge out it too. It's putting our control of the situation on the line.

The stuff we do is no different than the crap, everybody watches on TV shows such as P'unked or Scare Tactic. There is a time to let your victim in on the Practical Joke. Again, Timing and knowing the moment to end things is just as important as it is in when to strike.

MIND FUCKS can be extremely simple or very Elaborate and well planned out. I assure you the reactions are 100% real, if you pulled it off effectively.

I still have yet to figure out how one truely Ethically Violate somebody in this manner, let alone get their consent ahead of time to do it.

You can always have the "How well do you deal with practical jokes and mind fucks" as part of regular old fashioned conversation. You can test out lesser degree Pranks and mind fucks first.

Hope this all sort of makes sense to somebody.. or at least something to think about.

(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 7:16:01 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I think you may be making a progression that I didn't intend in the original.  I am looking at this as knife play and actual cuttings as two different things.  I never said the knife play was the hard limit, but in fact cutting.


Okay, that makes sense. I really wasn't making a clear distinction between the two in my head. Now that you put it that way it is clearer and I can see how they are separate things. Sorta like gun play and actually shooting the bottom.

My post wasn't so much a progression of yours but rather your post related to a question I have been kicking around for a while so I took the opportunity to pose it in the least hijackingly manner possible. I had contemplated making it a separate thread but couldn't muster the motivation to throw myself to the jackals in that fashion. Thanks for the explanation - it makes sense now.




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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:03:39 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleepingbeauty2

since Master would never REALLY hurt me, and I know this, how can Knife play be "real". I think it would be cool to work to that fear level, but I don't think I could do it.


But this begs the question.  You use the phrase "REALLY hurt" when I think you mean "harm" (as in "do no harm.")  NONE of us want "harm" on either side of the kneel.  That would be abuse and illegal.

This discussion is about "hurt," in the same way that one can hurt using a cane, but it's very different than harming the bottom..... maybe by opening the skin to the bone.

So, if I were to try to rephrase the OP's original question in much more general terms.....  How far does a Dom/Domme go with playing before the fear of "twue" harm overrides the fear of <play> hurt?  <not quite right, but you get my drift.......>

When playing with knives as sensation toys only, which fear do you (as the bottom) experience?  Is it the fear of hurt (temporary or damage-lite) or the fear of harm (cut to the bone)?  As a bottom, does fear of harm prevent you from "enjoying" the fear of hurt.

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:17:17 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Imus, yes, that is how I was seeing the original.  Not that I think that a thread shouldn't go in whatever direction of thought that it brings the participants, but I didn't want anyone to be confused.  (That was probably confusing in itself.  The caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.)  I certainly would like to encourage you to start the thread that is on the concept you're thinking about (if I've got it in My head the same way).  It would make for an interesting discussion.

Whip. I see where you're going, and that element of surprise factor is a cornerstone of what can make a mind fuck effective.  For a subject of mind fucks, the question at the end of the original here takes on the part of whether it was real or not.  From the bottom's perspective, in the moment, it has to be real or the mind fuck doesn't work.  From the top's, it's probably not.  It may be interesting to explore the differences in something like that.  In the knife play where cutting isn't the intent, the top doesn't necessarily have to encourage the thoughts that the bottom might be cut.  The bottom does that all on their own, and the top doesn't necessarily have to play into it.




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(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:18:04 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		One of the best mind fucks with Knife Play I've pulled is the "OH SHIT, I just fucked up" rabbit out of the hat. Where I pretend to freak out. Subbies don't like to see their Dominant partner panic and freak you know, we supposed to be in control of things. (Evil wicked laugh). It's amazing when somebody can't see what you're doing how a pinch, slight slap, with a fumble of the knife hitting the floor, with "oh.. no, no no.. CRAP.. oh fuck no.. I can't believe I just did that and this is happening.."... If they are Bond up.. to hear or watch you go running off in a mad dash for the First Aid kit, and/or a towel. Even more interesting when you add fake blood into the mix. Where you press down the towel (whatever it is) to soak up the blood (at the same time you squirt out the fake blood or pop the packet)... then pull the towel back into their view (PRICELESS)... you then bandage them up. Jokes on them later, when they peak under the bandage cause they wondering why they don't feel any pain. :-)

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/9/2010 8:22:26 AM >

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:24:17 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		As to ethics:

Leathermen (gay male BDSMers) contest.  Bottom is given a code.  Top is to "torture" bottom to reveal word.  Fastest top wins. Last bottom wins.

Top has bottom break beer bottles and stand them on flat ends to make a 2' by 4' rectangle completely filled in with jagged edges.  Meanwhile, top is making zig-zag of fishing line over said space, tying ends of each cross-wire to frame-work erected for sling use....... That is, top makes a sling of fishing line.  Accomplices grab Bottom, blindfold him and throw him into sling where he is tied to the sling with more line.  Basically round and round his body in cocoon... not too much, just enough to hold him.  Judges are there, watching this procedure...... Top says "Tell me the code," bottom says "no", top cuts a string.  Judges start to protest this procedure and argue with top and among themselves.  Top repeats while they are arguing.  Finally, after about 5 strings, the judges allow the top to proceed.

The bottom is holding out, calculating his weight against how many strings are left, versus the bragging rights of "winning"... versus the pain of dropping onto all those bottles that he knows are real because he put them there......

There are few strings left.  The top says "tell me the code", the bottom does so, and the top cuts through all the strings......

Is there ANY ethical behavior ANYWHERE in this scenario? 

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 2/9/2010 8:40:36 AM >

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:25:38 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

One of the best mind fucks with Knife Play I've pulled is the "OH SHIT, I just fucked up" rabbit out of the hat. Where I pretend to freak out. Subbies don't like to see their Dominant partner panic and freak you know, we supposed to be in control of things. (Evil wicked laugh). It's amazing when somebody can't see what you're doing how a pinch, slight slap, with a fumble of he knife hitting the floor, with "oh.. no, no no.. CRAP.. oh fuck no.. I can't believe I just did that and this is happening.."... If they are Bond up.. to hear or watch you go running off in a mad dash for the First Aid kit, and/or a towel. Even more interesting when you add fake blood into the mix. Where you press down the towel (whatever it is) to soak up the blood (at the same time you squirt out the fake blood or pop the packet)... then pull the towel back into their view (PRICELESS)... you then bandage them up. Jokes on them later, when they peak under the bandage cause they wondering why they don't feel any pain. :-)


Seriously, he'd never see me again.

I realize there are endless ways people enjoy playing.  As for myself, I don't relate to the "mindfuck" side of knife-play because my experience has been with actual sharp knives, actually piercing my skin and actually making me bleed.  To each their own - others can't relate to this just as I can't relate to other stuff, no harm no foul.  But I'm not a fan of practical jokes, in fact, they tend to piss me off (in general, not just in BDSM play).  Something like the above would end up making me so angry it would take a LOT to ever pull me back and then I'm sure things would never be the same after that.  Not just because of the breach of trust, but for a variety of reasons.

And yet, someone else would love this.  It's fascinating to me how we are all so different from each other.  Cool stuff.


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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:50:36 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

As to ethics:

Leathermen (gay male BDSMers) contest.  Bottom is given a code.  Top is to "torture" bottom to reveal word.  Fastest top wins. Last bottom wins.

Top has bottom break beer bottles and stand them on flat ends to make a 2' by 4' rectangle completely filled in with jagged edges.  Meanwhile, top is making zig-zag of fishing line over said space, tying ends of each cross-wire to frame-work erected for sling use....... That is, top makes a sling of fishing line.  Accomplices grab Bottom, blindfold him and throw him into sling where he is tied to the sling with more line.  Basically round and round his body in cocoon... not too much, just enough to hold him.  Judges are there, watching this procedure...... Top says "Tell me the code," bottom says "no", top cuts a string.  Judges start to protest this procedure and argue with top and among themselves.  Top repeats while they are arguing.  Finally, after about 5 strings, the judges allow the top to proceed.

The bottom is holding out, calculating his weight against how many strings are left, versus the bragging rights of "winning"... versus the pain of dropping onto all those bottles that he knows are real because he put them there......

There are few strings left.  The top says "tell me the code", the bottom does so, and the top cuts through all the strings......

Is there ANY ethical behavior ANYWHERE in this scenario? 

I don't know if I want to argue the ethics of it.  Not knowing the whole scenario or if there was some trick to the whole thing, could certainly make the difference.

In the near future, we'll have to bring up the topic of interrogation.  If I'm reading right, that's basically what you've got here.  Bottom has info, top wants info and gets to use the method that they see fit to obtain it.  All kinds of angles to work that one, too. 


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 8:56:52 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Not knowing the whole scenario or if there was some trick to the whole thing, could certainly make the difference.


Oh, I "forgot" to mention.... while they were arguing, by pre-arragement, the judges removed the bottles.

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:06:02 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		>.<   Edited to remove too fast a reply on my part.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 2/9/2010 9:11:31 AM >

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:06:36 AM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
Status: offline 		That's a big piece of information to neglect when debating ethics...lol.

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:08:56 AM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		I think it "fits" in this string as an example of a bottom being convinced the situation is different than what the reality is.  Plays to the harm/hurt dichotomy, where that boundary is, and how clearly the line is defined.

Using the word "ethics" was a red herring, specifically meant to mis-lead the reader.  If I'd titled it "Example of mind-fuck" most would've guessed what was happening from the get-go.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 2/9/2010 9:35:32 AM >

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:14:28 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Seriously, he'd never see me again.

I realize there are endless ways people enjoy playing.  As for myself, I don't relate to the "mindfuck" side of knife-play because my experience has been with actual sharp knives, actually piercing my skin and actually making me bleed.  To each their own - others can't relate to this just as I can't relate to other stuff, no harm no foul.  But I'm not a fan of practical jokes, in fact, they tend to piss me off (in general, not just in BDSM play).  Something like the above would end up making me so angry it would take a LOT to ever pull me back and then I'm sure things would never be the same after that.  Not just because of the breach of trust, but for a variety of reasons.

And yet, someone else would love this.  It's fascinating to me how we are all so different from each other.  Cool stuff.



Hence in an early post I wrote about somebody I knew without question would not be able to deal with blood or the thoughts of blood of any kind. It's always wise to know how well somebody will react "in the end" to things. As you expressed Mind Fucks or Practical jokes of any kind will tend to piss you off.

For some people (not all), there is an element of personal growth from going through the experience of these things.

Now in regards to MIND FUCKS, there's an aspect where there's a submissive who surrenders their body to you, is in your hands. You pretend you are doing it for real, they don't put up a fight, however attempt to mentally asborb in their mind (OH My God, I'm really being cut). They are truely being deeply submissive in regards to the experience, they are pushing themselves mentally deeper into a state of submission, while their mind my be screaming out thoughts about saying something and making it stop. Some submissives have a very difficult time in using a safeword, because to them it's a sign of failure. However, this is a completely different mindset. Needless to say, the experience of this mind fuck drives them into mentally pushing themselves into a greater and deeper sense of submission. I hope this somewhat makes sense to you. This is rather different in nature. None the less, they endure the experience, and find relief when they realize it was a MIND FUCK. Hence the real reason why PRACTICAL JOKES are called Practical.

If the nature of a MIND FUCK is one centered around Humilation, regardless of who it is, they are challenged with the mental aspects of humilation. It does provoke a certain degree of emotion within the bottom/victim. There is a certain strength a person has if they can deal with humilation and deal with it well. It becomes harder to truely humilate them, and they find a sense of mental freedom at the same time.

Practical Jokes, Mind fucks, Pranks or whatever you wish to call them, can be an effective conditioning and training tool. I will probally take heat from some people for expressing things as being a "Tool"... It also tests the relationship dynamic itself some.

Now D/s for some people is rather akin to a 50"s lifestyle, Who's the head of household. For others it's more akin to that of being a slave to a Master/Mistress/Owner. This is the best way I can humanly describe it. It's one thing to have a submissive that offers themself and seeks to offer themself as completely or as much as humanly possible. Another thing to have a submissive that looks for you to be simply in charge of things with a limited level of submission.

Some people can take a Mind Fuck, but only if it's not at their own expense. This is why at times it best to get to know somebody first before leaping feet first into a relationship.

In regards to Mind Fucks, I can go either way, with or without them. They don't make or break a relationship for me. However, with them, it's adds a certain extra added spice to things. It even breaks up the tension of Day to Day life. It's just one of the many different flavorings.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/9/2010 9:17:45 AM >

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:22:05 AM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
Status: offline 		I agree it fits in along with the topic. However, if I were to answer your initial question without that bit of information, my reply would have been considerably different. I try not to assume information that isn't there. Assuming the Top in that scenario was ethical because *I* would have made sure those broken bits were removed is not a safe thing to do; only because there are some really twisted people who would not remove the broken glass first.

I think that was a brilliant mind fuck...it fucked with my mind by not having that info .

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:29:37 AM   
FetishHound


Posts: 27
Joined: 11/11/2009
Status: offline 		Any type of knife play involving bloodletting would be a hard limit with me.I wouldn't let anyone cut me and wouldn't do it to anyone.

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:41:35 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

As to ethics:

Leathermen (gay male BDSMers) contest.  Bottom is given a code.  Top is to "torture" bottom to reveal word.  Fastest top wins. Last bottom wins.

Top has bottom break beer bottles and stand them on flat ends to make a 2' by 4' rectangle completely filled in with jagged edges.  Meanwhile, top is making zig-zag of fishing line over said space, tying ends of each cross-wire to frame-work erected for sling use....... That is, top makes a sling of fishing line.  Accomplices grab Bottom, blindfold him and throw him into sling where he is tied to the sling with more line.  Basically round and round his body in cocoon... not too much, just enough to hold him.  Judges are there, watching this procedure...... Top says "Tell me the code," bottom says "no", top cuts a string.  Judges start to protest this procedure and argue with top and among themselves.  Top repeats while they are arguing.  Finally, after about 5 strings, the judges allow the top to proceed.

The bottom is holding out, calculating his weight against how many strings are left, versus the bragging rights of "winning"... versus the pain of dropping onto all those bottles that he knows are real because he put them there......

There are few strings left.  The top says "tell me the code", the bottom does so, and the top cuts through all the strings......

Is there ANY ethical behavior ANYWHERE in this scenario? 


OH lord, I just laughed my ass off reading this. Why you Inglorious Bastards... God, I love this one. I'm assuming the broken Beer Bottles were removed... wait a minute.. some people would debate about how ethical it is to Drink Beer in the first place while playing. Assuming this was not a Dry Event. LOL...

This is great at how to force somebody to concentrate one thing, so they don't stop and think about the possibility that the bottles were removed. (assuming they were). Distraction of thought, sight or whatever else.. The Whole MISDIRECTION angle. :-)

In terms of ethics, man I would have loved to been one of the Judges or on lookers. I would have sucked at being the Bottom, cause I would have figured out the bottles were removed at some point in time, and I would have been as Smart as a Smart-Ass-Masochist about it. Frack it, you ain't getting the word.

This raises a Questioning point, just how far will one or can one really go? It becomes more and more difficult to pull off a Good Mind fuck in time, or with somebody with is a rather sharp cookie. The more you do can actually condition other people to the KEY Elements and nature of it.

Personally Leatherman, I find nothing ethically wrong with what you just layed out. In fact, I'm smiling over it. The only question in my mind, were the Broken Bottles removed. Cause this is sort of Mind Fucking with my response a little.


< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/9/2010 9:43:36 AM >

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:48:48 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Knife play for me - boring.

My Sir isn't going to hurt/harm/damage me, and i know it and Sir knows it.

If there isn't that frizzle of fear then there isn't anything.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:49:43 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Not knowing the whole scenario or if there was some trick to the whole thing, could certainly make the difference.


Oh, I "forgot" to mention.... while they were arguing, by pre-arragement, the judges removed the bottles.


OKAY, totally eithical then, even more so since the bottom did not freak out and stop the show.

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 9:52:55 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Knife play for me - boring.

My Sir isn't going to hurt/harm/damage me, and i know it and Sir knows it.

If there isn't that frizzle of fear then there isn't anything.


Yeah, that's why I came up with the whole accidental cutting bit, I mentioned in my previous post. Because it set things up to believeble. However, I could not effectively pull it off again on her. It was onward to new Territories to explore.

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RE: Knife Play - 2/9/2010 10:04:52 AM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Knife play for me - boring.

My Sir isn't going to hurt/harm/damage me, and i know it and Sir knows it.

If there isn't that frizzle of fear then there isn't anything.


Yeah, that's why I came up with the whole accidental cutting bit, I mentioned in my previous post. Because it set things up to believeble. However, I could not effectively pull it off again on her. It was onward to new Territories to explore.


Which I think it also has to be stated again that as a bottom and a mostly self identified sub, it is amazing how our minds will instantly recreate worst case scenarios in our heads especially when we are bound and blindfolded and our minor doubts will be exaggerated out of proportion. Even when both people involved have no intention to do any cutting but simply do a knife play scene, there is always that slim chance of the bototm acquiring a small nick...it happens. Yet the mind will assume the worst even if that is NOT what is going to happen. Our own minds do play great mind fucks with or without the help of a top.




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