RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 6:44:50 AM)

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/01/opinion/oe-mcmanus1

The administration has been talking to Iran, here is one little op ed.

And your purple link has nothing to do with anyone saying anything about Las Vegas, it is McCain bitching about talking to enemies without preconditions.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 6:48:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/01/opinion/oe-mcmanus1

The administration has been talking to Iran, here is one little op ed.

And your purple link has nothing to do with anyone saying anything about Las Vegas, it is McCain bitching about talking to enemies without preconditions.

Thanks Ron - Fixed the link. The other one came from the Iran thread.



mnottertail -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 6:53:11 AM)

cool, now your point doesnt look 'whacked out'. i dont know whether i agree or disagree with your point that he shouldn't badmouth las vegas in any sort of fashion (LOOKING AT IT FROM MY VIEW AS A SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY) balanced against his right to free speech as an american.

I am still tossing and turning (not very intensely I can assure you) on this issue.

Ron



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 7:05:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

cool, now your point doesnt look 'whacked out'. i dont know whether i agree or disagree with your point that he shouldn't badmouth las vegas in any sort of fashion (LOOKING AT IT FROM MY VIEW AS A SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY) balanced against his right to free speech as an american.

I am still tossing and turning (not very intensely I can assure you) on this issue.

Ron

I bet you are! [;)]

You lose a bit of "free" speech as President. Every word you say comes with a cost, which is why Obama using Vegas as a reference twice is noteworthy. Once he got a pass - this time even his Senate front man from Nevada took him to task. Only his most adamant disciples see it differently. Interesting though, that they defend the reference and so much him. Must be a function of the dropping poll numbers.

A President in transition; now he's even backing off from his banker bonus comments. President Barack Obama said he doesn't "begrudge" the $17 million bonus awarded to JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon or the $9 million issued to Goldman Sachs Group Inc. CEO Lloyd Blankfein, noting that some athletes take home more pay.

The president, speaking in an interview, said in response to a question that while $17 million is "an extraordinary amount of money" for Main Street, "there are some baseball players who are making more than that and don't get to the World Series either, so I'm shocked by that as well."

"I know both those guys; they are very savvy businessmen," Obama said in the interview yesterday in the Oval Office with Bloomberg BusinessWeek, which will appear on newsstands Friday. "I, like most of the American people, don't begrudge people success or wealth. That is part of the free- market system."

How do you think that will play to his supporters? Think he's looking to restock his campaign money war-chest?



mnottertail -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 7:10:37 AM)

I dont think anything is as choreographed or juxtaposed as all that.

Las Vegas aint putting no money in my pocket, and every cocksucker that comes in here wants to know if I have seen pawn stars.....

Yeah, out here in rural minnesota I am getting 4 or 5 civil war swords and medieval suits of armor a day on pawn.............

They may be hurting, but sorta divorced from my lifestyle issues. I'm mostly not feeling their pain, Merc. Sorta small potatoes compared to where I am at.

Ron



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 7:31:53 AM)

quote:

They may be hurting, but sorta divorced from my lifestyle issues. I'm mostly not feeling their pain, Merc. Sorta small potatoes compared to where I am at.

Ron


I can honestly represent that I do feel their pain. Where you are at, or where I am at, is a function of where we all are. You and I have the luxury of not having our words affect the masses; Obama doesn't.

Me going to Vegas, using the facilities, telling as many workers and friends who live there to hang in there has a limiting impact. All these people are trying and working as best they can under the circumstances. How would you feel if, considering your hard work, the President announced on a national platform that your city should be avoided? No matter how he qualified his comments, specifying a visit in lieu of college tuition or buying food, you were singled out. Your job, business dependent on tourism was deemed as he poster child for wasted resources.

That's how many, actually all, of he people we know and met in Vegas felt about his statement the first time Vegas was referenced. Many who supported Obama financially and with their votes, were upset but gave him the benefit of a doubt - at the time he said it was a mistake. In your opinion what's their appropriate feeling now?



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 8:03:19 AM)

I hope that every American who believes in equal opportunity for his fellow men, understands this distinction that I have made. For we shall never achieve a free and prosperous and hopeful society until we have suppressed the fires of hate and we have turned aside from violence--whether that violence comes from the night riders of the Klan, or the snipers and the looters in the Watts district. Neither old wrongs nor new fears can ever justify arson or murder.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=27170

Sometimes when you push too hard a point, your point will be proven wrong. As above ,,, a sitting President.... naming a city... and denigrating it. or is he? actually, not denigrating, because these things were happening in watts at the time, though the Klan certainly was not behind it. And likening the citizens of Watts to the Klan i thought a denigration in itself.

But, did Obama denigrate LV? I assume in your opinion he may have. In mine, he did not.


to denigrate... To attack the character or reputation of; speak ill of; defame.

LV has a reputation of carefree fun, gambling, and the ever favorite... what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Sorry, i dont see Obama's words as a denigration of LV's reputation since that IS the reputation they have promoted themselves... a place of lose morals and losing money.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 8:10:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I hope that every American who believes in equal opportunity for his fellow men, understands this distinction that I have made. For we shall never achieve a free and prosperous and hopeful society until we have suppressed the fires of hate and we have turned aside from violence--whether that violence comes from the night riders of the Klan, or the snipers and the looters in the Watts district. Neither old wrongs nor new fears can ever justify arson or murder.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=27170

Sometimes when you push too hard a point, your point will be proven wrong. As above ,,, a sitting President.... naming a city... and denigrating it.

Watts isn't a city. Did Johnson mention LA? He didn't even suggest it represented anything 'evil'. He said people living in that particular neighborhood needed their "fires of hate" suppressed.

That was a stretch, even for you - but nice try. Again - if that's the best you can do, my point regarding Johnson's fellow Democratic President, stands.



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 8:12:59 AM)

LOL

Try the edit Merc. As usual, you twist things to support your own opinion.



mnottertail -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 8:21:22 AM)

How about Ike and the military-industrial complex? sorta an attack on the entire economy and might of the US, if we are going to take this so far removed from intrinsicity.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new_york_washington_speak_on_communion_for_proabort_politicians/

Comon, politico talking heads (and the prez is nothing much more) talk against cities and sectors, hell Reagan was the worst in all classes, right up with Bush...even against foreign countries.

Everybody in Washington talks against Washington.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 9:37:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
LOL
Try the edit Merc. As usual, you twist things to support your own opinion.

No - lets focus on yours.

You want to put up "Watts" as an example to compare the situation of Vegas.

With apologies to my friends at my favorite Roscoe's Chicken & Waffles; Watts when President Johnson made those remarks had set fire to itself.

The people of Watts decided it was in their best interest to burn down their neighborhood. You compared them to Vegas who has been building and constructing in the hopes of establishing businesses which generate income to support families.

President Johnson cited the hatred necessary to burn and destroy your own neighborhood. President Obama only focused on Vegas as a place not to go.

I'm grateful for you research. Brining up the comparison to a neighborhood on fire versus a city under economic fire helped serve my point.

quote:

LV's reputation since that IS the reputation they have promoted themselves... a place of lose morals and losing money.
But if Johnson made the point that the people in Watts deserved their burned out houses and businesses that would have been bigoted, prejudicial, and racist. What rationalization for your prejudice do you use to paint all the families currently unemployed and suffering economic hardship to refer to them all having "lose morals", who earned President's scorn?



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 11:17:39 AM)

President Johnson cited the hatred necessary to burn and destroy your own neighborhood. President Obama only focused on Vegas as a place not to go.

Johnson also associated it to the Klan. Obama only said.. dont spend the rent.

Johnson drew paralles to the violence between blacks and whites. Obama instructed us not to buy boats.

You made a broad statement that Obama was the ONLY sitting president to talk about any city of the US. At the time of this statement by Johnson, everyone knew exactly where Watts was, there was no need to explain it was a part of LA.

I dont draw silly little distinctions between cities and districts... real people involved in both cases. LV is a town made of tinsel and cards. No different than any other town trying to make it on what they grew up on. Its acutally laughable that you are whining their case, the big man who claimed that if business cant support itself, it shouldnt BE in business. Maybe you need to look at Vegas as a business, thats exactly what it is. Or is it because you are your buddies will have no where to go to moan and bitch about how you cant have fun anymore? and how the big mean President said you shouldnt go? i can assure you, merc, he could care less where you go. i believe he was actually speaking to americans who give a damn and are tired of struggling while people like you wallow in your money and self pity of an era that is, obviously, now dead... sorta like the riots in Watts.



quote:

quote:

LV's reputation since that IS the reputation they have promoted themselves... a place of lose morals and losing money.



But if Johnson made the point that the people in Watts deserved their burned out houses and businesses that would have been bigoted, prejudicial, and racist. What rationalization for your prejudice do you use to paint all the families currently unemployed and suffering economic hardship to refer to them all having "lose morals", who earned President's scorn?


Now, see, this is even funnier coming from you. Where was the outcry when the businesses were going under right and left, leaving people out of work, no insurance, losing their homes, all accross this country, and you just NOW decide to come out and cry.. foul?

Your hypocracy is unbelievable. You dont give a damn about those people. You dont care who is dealing your cards, making your beds, delivering your drinks. you just want something to bitch about and pin it on Obama.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 11:33:16 AM)

quote:

I dont draw silly little distinctions between cities and districts
Obviously or else your point would be even more irrelevant. Johnson needed a label and used the 'Klan'. Obama needed, and needs, a visual enemy - he chooses to pick Vegas. It's your comparison - and it's disclosing of your agenda.

quote:

Its acutally laughable that you are whining their case, the big man who claimed that if business cant support itself, it shouldnt BE in business.
Not backing away from that position what so ever. I only want to credit the President for helping them fail, and keeping prices so low for the things I enjoy doing.

quote:

are your buddies will have no where to go to moan and bitch about how you cant have fun anymore?
Hell - we have more fun cheaper! I appreciate the President's efforts to keep Vegas cheap.
quote:

you just want something to bitch about and pin it on Obama.
No - Obama provided the opportunity to do so - I'm sorry pointing it out troubles you.
quote:

believe he was actually speaking to americans who give a damn and are tired of struggling while people like you wallow in your money and self pity of an era that is, obviously, now dead... sorta like the riots in Watts.
It's you who have illustrated more of the "don't give a damn" mentality. I not only give a damn, but put my money and effort rewarding people who do.

You failed to prove your point. You just want, you need, you look for someone else to contribute to you. Your support of Obama and his desire for government to be pointed to for making decisions for your serves you. I understand your need for him to succeed and any point he makes, to the detriment of a City, isn't meritorious of consideration because you and your needs aren't where the President's remarks were directed - so YOU don't give a damn.

Really, appreciating your need to rationalize your hypocrisy, who is selectively "not giving a damn"?



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 11:51:23 AM)

I gave a damn months back. Wasnt it you who stated that business is there to run a business, and if they cant, then they should close, regardless of the reason?

Vegas is a business... a city was built up around that business. In times of economic trouble, that business has always suffered. I have worked the service industry half my adult life. It comes with the territory. Its an understood side effect of troubled times. Vegas was in trouble long before Obama made those comments. They, like you, wish to find someone else to pin it on. Certainly it cant be because people need to save. Certainly it cant be because people were worried about actually having a job in the wake of so many other businesses closing. Certainly it couldnt have been because people saw the economy going down the drain and slammed their wallets shut to frivilous spending. Of course not. IT HAD to be Obama's fault.



thornhappy -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 11:56:37 AM)

I'm even more amazed that this thread's gone for 13 pages...



mnottertail -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 11:57:46 AM)

Obamas pretty smart to get thirteen pages outt us, huh?



Thadius -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 12:12:39 PM)

He is also smart enough to avoid the shark pit (White House press corps) and the daily press conferences. It's been 7 months now, he is going for a record or something.

It's all about message discipline. Can't have those beat reporters asking an off topic question.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 12:15:09 PM)

quote:

I gave a damn months back. Wasn't it you who stated that business is there to run a business, and if they cant, then they should close, regardless of the reason?
You did? Did your "give a damn" have an expiration date, or a locality restriction?

Must have been in cases which you supported and not, as in this case, a specific City that the President has identified as, to quote you directly "a place of lose morals...". Painting an entire city and its economy being the result of "lose morals" requires a prejudice I'm happy to say - I can't relate to.

Would it be redundant to again say that I still believe that a person or business should suffer, or enjoy, the consequences of their actions and decisions as a fundamental principle of economics?

I don't have one sentence dedicated to the belief that Vegas should be bailed out. Everything I've posted is regarding the President of the United States accelerating, if not encouraging, their demise by his comments.

quote:

IT HAD to be Obama's fault.
Neither do I say it's his "fault". I stand behind my position that he was contributory to their problems the first time he used them as a negative reference; and has contributed again by this latest occurrence.

You know - sometimes you make my points better than I do, especially when you add some straw man argument like these instead of addressing the specifics of my responses. I appreciate you giving that opportunity to keep restating my positions as well as your assistance in confirming them to be correct.



mnottertail -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 12:16:39 PM)

I can just about lay even odds that would have been 'loose' morals on his teleprompter, Merc



Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 12:20:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I can just about lay even odds that would have been 'loose' morals on his teleprompter, Merc

Quoted directly from the source Ron - Wouldn't want to be accused of misrepresenting the point. I've been told, on this thread for example, it's gauche to point to spelling and grammar errors.



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