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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:30:34 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Fair enough.

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:32:17 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Im sorry, but your question really bothers me. You wish for a positive effect of this administrations economic policies when the main policy has been to keep the economy from going under.


No, even in the words of the Administration, they only say it would have been worse. They don't say how. They speak to their own impotency by continuing to blame the circumstance they were given yet not accomplishing, or providing rhetoric to affect the change they represented. Nothing stood in their way to accomplish anything until the Massachusetts election. Now fear stands in their way.

Although this serves as digression from the original premise of incompetency to implement improvement.

My position is that the words and actions coming out of Washington indicate a person in charge incapable of managing the current economic conditions. If Obama couldn't make the same point without the negative reference to either the boating industry or Vegas, with the negative consequences to a similar reference only one year old, he's not as smart as many assumed he was.

Forbes is in the business of selling magazines. Their target market is entrepreneurs who can, and do, survive if not thrive in a down economy. I, and many people I know, have made investments taking advantage of the desperation of many people to sell their assets at below market prices. You want me to point out how this economy has been good for me personally - I'll be happy to do so.

As business manager I appreciate the huge negative impact that last year's Obama comments had on the city of Las Vegas. I would think he too knew how his words, at minimum accelerated what occurred. Now one year later he does the same thing?

Doing so again, now when things are far worse, either discloses his intentions or ability.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:32:30 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I am curious.. and this is to anyone who wishes to answer.

How did you do while the economy was bright and the bubble was huge?

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:36:21 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		And i take him at his words, face value. If you cant pay the mortgage, why the hell are you buying a boat or going to vegas? Vegas will survive... so will boating. this time should be a good time for everyone, including businesses, even in Vegas, to trim back the fat and work lean and mean. Its also a good time for invention and innovation.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:36:25 AM   
housesub4you


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quote:

I've never seen one "liberal" blame themselves or take personal responsibility or accountability for that matter. Whether their child's failure in school, their failure to make their mortgage payment, or their inability to purchase health insurance;



This line is as much BS as the one where their are no GOP supporters on food stamps, or unemployment ( a theme in other threads)

How you take something about Vegas to saying liberals don't accept responsibility for their child's education is just nonsense.   Which makes your whole point meaningless.

it was only one year ago that the Vegas collapse started as a result of this comment:"You can't go take that trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on taxpayers' dime,

So Vegas collapsed because of a single sentence the President said?????  Not because of the housing drop in Vegas and the country, not because several companies over extended themselves on development and had to shut down, not because the recession has been going for 3 years, but from 1 line the President said.

WOW...never knew he had that much power, no wonder Demint stated he hoped to see this President fail , cause when the president fails the country does better


< Message edited by housesub4you -- 2/3/2010 11:52:23 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:36:56 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Not how it works, taz...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Perhaps your research skills need honing.


http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

"The increase in real GDP in the fourth quarter primarily reflected positive contributions from
private inventory investment, exports, and personal consumption expenditures (PCE). Imports, which
are a subtraction in the calculation of GDP, increased.

"The acceleration in real GDP in the fourth quarter primarily reflected an acceleration in private
inventory investment, a deceleration in imports, and an upturn in nonresidential fixed investment that
were partly offset by decelerations in federal government spending and in PCE."

Seems I told you a few months back that inventories were low and businesses would have to start increasing them as sales depleted existing stock. An idea you ridiculed, taking the position it was silly to expect any further demand.


quote:

The stock market it up too! When I pointed that out to the people in Vegas and those in business; we both laughed.

Seems their economic analysis skills are lacking. Perhaps that's why business isn't so good for them.

Or maybe they should think more, laugh less.



Instead, they blame their problems not on themselves, but on the government:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Fortunately for them, their government bureaucratic executives agree with them because it perpetrates their existence. They enable and seek to increase, the occurrences of failure. Personal responsibility? That's for fools who believe in their own ability and not someone indoctrinated to believe they aren't responsible for their situation or need to suffer the consequences for their actions.


Easier than taking personal responsibility for poor business decisions.


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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:49:17 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
What nonsense.

Did a national poll of liberals, did you?

btw, see previous post---edited to add link.

quote:

Did a national poll of liberals, did you?
btw, see previous post---edited to add link.


The point regarding liberals was in response to a post representing "personal responsibility is only for liberals". You'll have to ask Jeff where he got his polling data. My comments are based upon positions given represented as 'liberal'. Although I did ask whether any entitlement program was a 'conservative' initiative. If Jeff choices to apply that label to the entitlements - my position stands applied to them.

Regardless of the label, the pragmatic application of those entitlement programs is contrary to personally accountability on their face.

To your referenced link...

MM - The report's good news in contradiction to the reality facing the majority of US citizens points to the reality that improvement in personal living conditions in only occurring at the top end of the economy. I'd agree with that. I know you hate the first hand Vegas references, but truth be told the 'downtown' shops and casinos were doing a LOT worse than the high end places like the Bellagio, Wynn, and Caesars.

As I said before there is a small percentage of people spending money; me for one. I try again to focus on my point. The Vegas comment by Obama didn't hurt me or stop me from going there. It doesn't stop the top end individuals or executives from doing so either. But when the President of BoA goes alone instead of taking 1500 of his employees because the President of the USA says it's wrong, its not the President of BoA who suffers, or even their employees or stockholders; its the people working for wage in the city that feel it.

It's akin to when President Carter decided to put a 35% luxury tax on boats. The rich still bought boats; they 'suffered' and bought used ones not affected by the tax. Meanwhile, the new boat factory workers got laid off.

Based upon his rhetoric that concept seems too difficult for the President to appreciate.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:52:06 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		OK. But based on yours too.

You're both ignoring reality.

Seems to me plenty of your acquaintances are trying to shift the responsibility too.

A static business plan is not a plan.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/3/2010 11:54:07 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:56:30 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		First, my reply was clearly tongue in cheek.  Second if BoA was genuinely concerned with shareholders they would act in manner that indicated it.

A real board of directors for instance. Perhaps a prospectus that does more than encourage blind investments for short term gain.

BoA only cares now, when they are tanking.

And as for their employees?.. with a national unemployment rate of 10%, they can stfu and fucking go to work.

Jeff


Edited for typing

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 2/3/2010 11:57:16 AM >

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 11:56:44 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Instead, they blame their problems not on themselves, but on the government:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Fortunately for them, their government bureaucratic executives agree with them because it perpetrates their existence. They enable and seek to increase, the occurrences of failure. Personal responsibility? That's for fools who believe in their own ability and not someone indoctrinated to believe they aren't responsible for their situation or need to suffer the consequences for their actions.

Easier than taking personal responsibility for poor business decisions.

Personally I don't blame them for my success; it occurred despite them and their best efforts to encumber me and my businesses. I take full responsibility.

Happy to make this all about me and my circumstance. Obviously I present a much better target in hope of digressing from the reality of failure surrounding this administration concerning the bulk of it's citizens. Either that - or you all must be public employees, the only secure job market. That being the case, I don't blame you for defending and protecting your meal ticket.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 12:01:20 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Although I did ask whether any entitlement program was a 'conservative' initiative.



...so all subsidies to industry are liberal initiatives?

One of the problems i have with many right wingers is that they appear to see a qualitive difference between subsidising an industry and helping out an individual.

They're both entitlement programs. Liberals tend to want to help individuals........conservatives tend to want to help industry.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 12:03:12 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		[edited to clarify this is in response to Merc's last post]

What the fuck are you talking about? I earn my living the same as anyone else.

You have two claims--the economy sucks, and liberals dodge personal responsibility, asking the government to bail them out.

You've ignored the reality and the hard evidence that the economy is rebounding, spinning it bizarrely with nothing to back it up but your friends. You've made this about you. It's your only "evidence."

I see you hanging around bitching about a bad business climate that doesn't exist, particularly maintaining all would be well without the current administration. No evidence, just a lot of whining.

To repeat--if they're not doing well, they made crappy business decisions, and should take responsibility. No matter who's in Washington.

You'll also notice that nowhere in that did I defend Obama or his policies. I'm pointing out that your argument is baseless.

You're wrong.

"Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property
located in the United States -- increased at an annual rate of 5.7 percent in the fourth quarter of 2009,
(that is, from the third quarter to the fourth quarter), according to the "advance" estimate released by the
Bureau of Economic Analysis. In the third quarter, real GDP increased 2.2 percent."

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/3/2010 12:09:44 PM >

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 2:03:27 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Vegas overbuilt during the enthusiasm of the Bubble and is now paying the price for bad decisions during the crash. It is a cycle built into capitalism. There have been at least nine bank panics during the history of the US. To blame the relentless, inexerable cycle of bubble and burst on Obama's rhetoric is rather short on knowledge of the history of capitalism's boom and bust going back to the South Sea Company Speculative Bubble in 1720. Many were ruined for making the wrong bet. Vegas made the wrong bet at the wrong time. There are other examples before that.

I was in Vegas several times around 2005, before and after. The enthusiasm was palpable. Good times were here to stay. We never learn, Merc.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 2:04:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You frequently bring up Vegas.

It's a gambling town, an industry extremely sensitive to economic downturns. It's expensive entertainment, not durable goods.

Using it as an illustration for the nation buries your arguments. No, that's not a dismissal or a refutation--just that the same points you're getting at under that cloud would be far more credible with better illustrations. No point in sifting through all that from the starting point of a poor example--it would just continue to cloud the conversation.




It doesnt in the least bury his arguments, and LV actually very cheap entertainment if you dont get carried away. If your standard for not demeaning an indusgry is that it creates "durable goods" then fuck the NFL, MLB, NHL, NASCAR, Movies, TV, eating out, 75% (a guess) of internet use, resort hotels, golf courses and so on.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 2:08:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		Oh, and to the subject line, yes, he's smart...book smart and street smart. Unfortunately he has no experience doing anything that would qualify as making him POTUS smart, and he proves it every day.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 2:44:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...so all subsidies to industry are liberal initiatives?

One of the problems i have with many right wingers is that they appear to see a qualitative difference between subsidizing an industry and helping out an individual.

They're both entitlement programs. Liberals tend to want to help individuals........conservatives tend to want to help industry.
I would agree with your definitions in the macro for both the conservative "right wingers" and liberals, which I guess since you added the modifier to the other side, should be appropriately labeled 'left wingers'.

I distinguish myself from both of them because the only "subsidizing" I seek from the government for myself or my businesses is to NOT subsidies, and subsequently encumber me from succeeding. I'm ready for the consequences of failure and will be happy to accept them. I'm not ready for the current administration's consequences for success which is why I, and many other so inclined investors, are not expanding or investing.


quote:

You're wrong.


In your mind; and without any substantiation of your position to compare it too. Really MM - is that the totality of your position - "you're wrong"?
quote:

You've ignored the reality and the hard evidence that the economy is rebounding, spinning it bizarrely with nothing to back it up but your friends.
My friends? I represented the actual condition of the State of California, The State is a "friend"? The city of LA? The owners of mall?

It's not about me, because I'm not in that condition. The "bad business climate that doesn't exist" is all around you - refusing to see it is your decision. Believing in the "all is well" and working attitude would seem to be in direct contradiction with the President's position. Where is the practical 'regular guy' thriving?

quote:

To repeat--if they're not doing well, they made crappy business decisions, and should take responsibility. No matter who's in Washington.
Couldn't agree more! I would like the same exact attitude applied to the crappy business decisions made by burocrates to suffer the same consequences. Why don't you?

quote:

You have two claims--the economy sucks, and liberals dodge personal responsibility, asking the government to bail them out
I actually had one claim. Based upon his words and actions; President Obama is not a smart man nor has he any ability to manage people, or the issues he's facing.

On the tangents that have been raised...

Check your facts - who raised the labels liberal or conservative? You seem to need a label before deciding whether an action or position merited your agreement.

I'll attempt to make my position perfectly clear. Regardless of the label any individual, corporate entity, or limited liability partnership wears, if they requests a government bail out or intervention to protect them from the consequences of their decisions or actions; that request should be denied. Hand outs and bail outs, are the provision of charity - not government.

quote:

I'm pointing out that your argument is baseless.
You've made no argument against the original argument, directed to the ability and intelligence of the President. You attempted to create diversions, and I've enable you to do so by reponding directly.

Should I take as a directed reply to the OP, your comment; "you'll also notice that nowhere in that did I defend Obama or his policies."? Okay - I guess that's as direct as you get.

To the other factors of the discussion; without any substantive base to the contrary other than two quarters of statistics, which the source itself qualifies in the narrative; your position of "you're wrong" is noted as the best you can do in contrast to my "friends". Noting that my "friends" based on your position, must be defined as given in the examples provided; the State of CA, the City of LA, the mall across the street, the taxi drivers in Vegas, the pit bosses, the card dealers, the waiters, and my landlord, to name a few. (Damn-If they all show up, I'll need to order more food for my Superbowl party!) Tell you what I'll even agree with you. ALL of them, especially those running CA and LA, have made extremely "crappy business decisions" and should be allowed to fail without any further contribution from those of us succeeding.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 3:03:11 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You frequently bring up Vegas.

It's a gambling town, an industry extremely sensitive to economic downturns. It's expensive entertainment, not durable goods.

Using it as an illustration for the nation buries your arguments. No, that's not a dismissal or a refutation--just that the same points you're getting at under that cloud would be far more credible with better illustrations. No point in sifting through all that from the starting point of a poor example--it would just continue to cloud the conversation.


It doesnt in the least bury his arguments, and LV actually very cheap entertainment if you dont get carried away. If your standard for not demeaning an indusgry is that it creates "durable goods" then fuck the NFL, MLB, NHL, NASCAR, Movies, TV, eating out, 75% (a guess) of internet use, resort hotels, golf courses and so on.


Point is, that Vegas is not a good measure of the entire economy. Whomever uses it thus. Especially when the data shows, that with two successive quarters of positive growth, robust at that last quarter, the recession is over--six months into Obama's term at that.

quote:

to the subject line, yes, he's smart...book smart and street smart. Unfortunately he has no experience doing anything that would qualify as making him POTUS smart

Agreed. And as to that last phrase, not unique among Presidents.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 3:10:07 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Vegas made the wrong bet at the wrong time. There are other examples before that.

I was in Vegas several times around 2005, before and after. The enthusiasm was palpable. Good times were here to stay.


Vincent,
I wish I went to Orlando (a similarly directed resort town) and President Obama warned people not to travel there and have the focus on the issue I raised about the President's competence instead of the terrible economic times I encountered in Vegas. Of course, what you and other's say about overbuilding and expecting the 'good times' to go on forever are fact based.

I would expect the President also knows those facts. I would also expect him to learn from the last time he made such a comment. He is President over a sick national economy. However it got sick, he's the 'doctor' in charge of getting it well. Vegas is a part of that nation. As a leader, why be stupid and make a comment that can only serve to make Vegas sicker? Better put, in reality is not going to Vegas specifically going to solve the issue it was used in reference by the President? Would the point be less served if President Obama said; "You don't blow a bunch of cash going to Europe when your trying to save for college."? No competent administrator or manager would denigrate a division of his own entity to make a point. President Obama has now done it twice in the span of one year - directed to the same victim.
quote:

We never learn, Merc.

I'd disagree and bet you, like me, learn well; especially lessons taught recently with conditions worse now than when similar comments were made a year ago. Shouldn't we expect the same from those representing us? My question is this; is the reason it appears they, or in this case specifically President Obama, didn't "learn" a function of an agenda, special interests that got him elected, or ability?

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 3:16:35 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

"You don't go buying a boat when you can barely pay your mortgage. You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you're trying to save for college." ~ President Obama


I am just trying to figure out what the original argument is here.
Are you trying to make a case that we SHOULD spend the college money on a trip to Vegas? Or that people who can't pay their mortgage SHOULD go out and buy a boat?

I took Obama's words to mean that we shouldn't gamble rashly (as the Wall Street banks have done) or lavishly spend money on frills when we should be saving.

Seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

quote:

""You can't go take that trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on taxpayers' dime."

Frankly Vegas, and all the other convention spots are a great place to go on the taxpayers' dime.


Huh? On one hand you object to the growth of public employees, and the large sums of money we spend on them, then you claim no objection to them going to the Superbowl on our dime.
As before, I assume he was speaking metaphorically, saying those who receive public money (like the Wall Street banks) shouldn't spend that money frivolously.

Again- seems pretty obvious and common sense to me.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 3:21:27 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

I am just trying to figure out what the original argument is here.
Are you trying to make a case that we SHOULD spend the college money on a trip to Vegas? Or that people who can't pay their mortgage SHOULD go out and buy a boat?

I took Obama's words to mean that we shouldn't gamble rashly (as the Wall Street banks have done) or lavishly spend money on frills when we should be saving.

Seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

I'm sorry for your comprehension skills regarding the points I made in this thread concerning the statement pointed to Vegas. I can't help you.

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