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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 3:34:27 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth



I would agree with your definitions in the macro for both the conservative "right wingers" and liberals, which I guess since you added the modifier to the other side, should be appropriately labeled 'left wingers'.

I distinguish myself from both of them because the only "subsidizing" I seek from the government for myself or my businesses is to NOT subsidies, and subsequently encumber me from succeeding. I'm ready for the consequences of failure and will be happy to accept them. I'm not ready for the current administration's consequences for success which is why I, and many other so inclined investors, are not expanding or investing.




...well a quick couple of points. No, the other side to the right in the US are not left wingers.....because, quite frankly, there aren't any in the mainstream parties. You basically have centre-right and further right. The desire to paint those not classified as fairly far right wing as left wing is one of the most absurd elements in US politics.

Secondly, i get your position. No help, no hindrance.....just you and the market. Now, i'm afraid that is a right wing position as usually defined. There may not be a political party that actually espouses that position, although the Republicans are probably the closest you have, but nevetheless it is a right wing position.

Seems to me that you and Ayn Rand have more in common than you do with the current crop of pols in the US.

From my pov, Ayn Rand is one of the least humanitarian thinkers i have ever read. i find her work, at base, horribly negative and quite lacking in empathy for her fellow human beings. Her value system is set, not on anything human, but on the artificial measure of wealth. While she is not fascist, her work provides impetus for some fascists just as Nietzsche was co-opted by Nazis.

Please Merc, while your skills and talents suit you to a regulation free market, have some sympathy for the vast majority of people who don't.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 3:39:41 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I am just trying to figure out what the original argument is here.
Are you trying to make a case that we SHOULD spend the college money on a trip to Vegas? Or that people who can't pay their mortgage SHOULD go out and buy a boat?

I took Obama's words to mean that we shouldn't gamble rashly (as the Wall Street banks have done) or lavishly spend money on frills when we should be saving.

Seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

I'm sorry for your comprehension skills regarding the points I made in this thread concerning the statement pointed to Vegas. I can't help you.


Seems to me he gets it exactly.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 4:02:36 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		I am in Vegas thirty or forty days a year four to five days at a time.
Your position that Vegas tanked on the presidents comments is just absurd.
Vegas like the rest of the world in in the tank. It did not suddenly take a nose
dive on a few words by the president or anyone else.
The Four Queens is downtown and the place is about half full. The Bellagio is
on the strip and is way less than half full. The upside is that one can drive on
Las Vegas blvd and average almost 5 mph (almost twice what it was just a year ago).

HST

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 4:07:25 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Please Merc, while your skills and talents suit you to a regulation free market, have some sympathy for the vast majority of people who don't.
You know philo, your inability to appreciate the existence of a left wing active and operating in the US may be attributed to not knowing the reality of US politics. Or, it could be that you compare it to the UK model of left and right wing. However it does exist.

Find a place or a reference where I desire a "regulation free market". You assumed and didn't ask, but I'll tell you that the market regulations I desire include a condition where failures are allowed to fail while successes are encumbered as little as possible. I don't define "as little as possible" as what's occurred in either Bush Bail Out I or Bush/Obama Bail Out II; which has had as a result many marginal successes encumbered to the point of failure.

I not only have sympathy for any person that doesn't have the skills and talents you assign to me; I have empathy for those who have been indoctrinated by the social engineers to believe they don't have the ability for self improvement or sufficiency.
quote:

No help, no hindrance.....just you and the market. Now, i'm afraid that is a right wing position as usually defined. There may not be a political party that actually espouses that position, although the Republicans are probably the closest you have, but nevetheless it is a right wing position.

I like you to tell me why self sufficiency and determination represents a Republican position? As a corollary, I'd ask why its not a universal government goal for its citizens?

Finally, I doubt good old Ayn would agree with any of my fundamental positions concerning the role of government in the lives of its citizens. I'm pragmatic in the understanding the need and cost of fundamental government services. Where I find myself now is disagreeing with a government that seems intent on two goals; universal government reliance and allocating a disproportional percentage of resources to address problems faced by a small minority of its citizens.

In the case of allocating resources, most were implemented when conditions provided for the ability to afford the payment of government taking the place of charity. It becomes a problem during the current economic climate when no extra money is lying around and yet the bureaucratic entitlement programs remain. In a similar context to government charity, my humanitarian efforts and contributions are not reflected in my position of an ideal government.

You should consider that some people have the ability to separate personal responsibility from political position.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/3/2010 4:22:35 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 4:11:31 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

However it got sick, he's the 'doctor' in charge of getting it well. Vegas is a part of that nation. As a leader, why be stupid and make a comment that can only serve to make Vegas sicker? Better put, in reality is not going to Vegas specifically going to solve the issue it was used in reference by the President?


Merc, I cannot speak for Obama's motivation. Yes, you make a good point when you say Vegas is part of a sick economy and Obama's comments may be considered to be not encouraging for the people in LV. So maybe it was a stupid comment. Granted.

On the other hand LV is a perfect metaphor for what brought down the economy - Wall Street derivative gambling at 43 X leverage and bundling of mortgages along with Main Street greedy "flipping" of homes by multiple people through multiple sequences. The whole thing was a giant ponzi edifice. I take Obama to be telling people to not gamble their precious resources.

Additionally, you may call LV an entertainment center akin to Orlando but I see a world of difference. The entertainment in LV is designed to lure people to the tables where the house always wins eventually. I am not saying that is inherently immoral or even dishonest. I am saying let's shine a bright light on it for what it really is. If these guys like Wynn are so smart why do they build so elaborately during the frenzy? You would think they would set aside their bankrolls for hard times when construction is cheaper.

I don't think the reality of so many people out of work and so many people underwater in their mortgages will permit trips to Vegas. Whoever he is and whatever the President says is not going to alter that reality. Just my opinion. Oh, except some Europeans given the exchange rate. LV might do well by marketing more abroad. Maybe even Asia. Just a guess.

After the dotcom bubble burst and the attack on the Twin Towers GWB did tell people to go out and shop, much to his credit although he was criticized for it, but the travel and hospitality industry took a hit anyway. Again, in reality I am not sure history backs up your lament against the effect of Obama's words.

As for the comment "we never learn" i was speaking historically and universally, not particularly. But, if you have plans you think will succeed, I send you good wishes and sincerely good luck.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 2/3/2010 4:12:48 PM >

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 4:15:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I am in Vegas thirty or forty days a year four to five days at a time.
Your position that Vegas tanked on the presidents comments is just absurd.
Vegas like the rest of the world in in the tank. It did not suddenly take a nose
dive on a few words by the president or anyone else.
The Four Queens is downtown and the place is about half full. The Bellagio is
on the strip and is way less than half full. The upside is that one can drive on
Las Vegas blvd and average almost 5 mph (almost twice what it was just a year ago).

HST

You should run for mayor - your position regarding the President's comments and the economic conditions of the city would be in direct opposition. "All is Well!" is not what the mayor is representing. You'd be the perfect "all is well" candidate! MM could be your campaign manager for national office.

Mayor Oscar Goodman says he's worried the statement will damage Las Vegas' already suffering economy.

"This president is a real slow learner," Goodman said after the speech. "He has a real psychological hang-up about the entertainment capital of the world and an apology won't be acceptable this time."Shortly after the mayor's remarks, Obama sent a letter to U.S. Senator Harry Reid of Nevada in which he states, "I wasn't saying anything negative about Las Vegas."

The president goes on to praise Las Vegas as a great place to have fun. Mayor Goodman says unless the president does more than just apologize, his visit to Las Vegas later this month will be a very awkward one. Although the mayor does welcome friends to Las Vegas, at this point, he says President Obama is not his friend. "I want the president to straighten this out. Otherwise, he's not welcome in my city," he said.

PS - As noted, it was 15 minutes from one end of the Strip to the other at 11PM on a Saturday night. One year ago during the same weekend - the same trip took 45 minutes. Yeah - you have your finger on the pulse of Vegas. You - not the Major or anyone thinking the President is, at minimum, insensitive to the plight of the people of Vegas.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/3/2010 4:17:40 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 4:39:49 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I am in Vegas thirty or forty days a year four to five days at a time.
Your position that Vegas tanked on the presidents comments is just absurd.
Vegas like the rest of the world in in the tank. It did not suddenly take a nose
dive on a few words by the president or anyone else.
The Four Queens is downtown and the place is about half full. The Bellagio is
on the strip and is way less than half full. The upside is that one can drive on
Las Vegas blvd and average almost 5 mph (almost twice what it was just a year ago).

HST

You should run for mayor - your position regarding the President's comments and the economic conditions of the city would be in direct opposition. "All is Well!" is not what the mayor is representing. You'd be the perfect "all is well" candidate! MM could be your campaign manager for national office.

PS - As noted, it was 15 minutes from one end of the Strip to the other at 11PM on a Saturday night. One year ago during the same weekend - the same trip took 45 minutes. Yeah - you have your finger on the pulse of Vegas. You - not the Major or anyone thinking the President is, at minimum, insensitive to the plight of the people of Vegas.


Do you not read English?
How you got that interpretation from what I wrote defies logic.
I point out that Vegas has less than half of its normal contengent of people leaving money there and you think that means "all is well"
I point out that the speed on Las Vegas blvd doubled due to the lack of cars and you think that means "all is well"

HST

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 5:00:08 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Do you not read English?
How you got that interpretation from what I wrote defies logic.
I point out that Vegas has less than half of its normal contingent of people leaving money there and you think that means "all is well"
Perhaps I don't - at least as a first language.

You'll have to reconcile this latest statement with this one that you made; "Your position that Vegas tanked on the presidents comments is just absurd." Which also seems in opposition with the Mayor of the town. The expertise of your "30-40 days" days duly noted - you think the President's comments helped promote more people to visit Vegas?

BTW If that's the case - I have on average for that past 4 years more first hand expertise, both on business and pleasure. However that representation is as irrelevant as yours.


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/3/2010 5:08:22 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 5:25:37 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Do you not read English?
How you got that interpretation from what I wrote defies logic.
I point out that Vegas has less than half of its normal contingent of people leaving money there and you think that means "all is well"
Perhaps I don't - at least as a first language.

You'll have to reconcile this latest statement with this one that you made; "Your position that Vegas tanked on the presidents comments is just absurd." Which also seems in opposition with the Mayor of the town. The expertise of your "30-40 days" days duly noted - you think the President's comments helped promote more people to visit Vegas?

BTW If that's the case - I have on average for that past 4 years more first hand expertise, both on business and pleasure. However that representation is as irrelevant as yours.



So it appears that your position is that Vegas was doing just fine till the president cautioned people against spending the rent money on gambling and booze.
Is knowledge of Vegas and its economic condition a linier function of who spends the most time there yearly? My point was and is that I go to Vegas on a regular bassis and have for the past thirty years. Anyone who spends that amount of time there would notice the decrease in visitors. I fail to see how your comparison of how many days a year you spend there actually validate your position. We both agree that the Vegas economy is in the tank. You seem to think it occured when the president suggested that people act responsibly.
For a person who constantly carps on the theme of responsibility your opposition to the presidents call for responsibility seems to place you in a rather sticky ethical position.
Doesn't it hurt your mouth when you talk out of both sides of it at the same time?

HST

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 5:38:51 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

My point was and is that I go to Vegas on a regular bassis and have for the past thirty years. Anyone who spends that amount of time there would notice the decrease in visitors. I fail to see how your comparison of how many days a year you spend there actually validate your position.
You made the original point, why if not to represent some kind of validity behind it? I noted mine in comparison. Note that also in comparison - I said our visits were irrelevant. However I'd disagree - 5 years ago it was MUCH more busy than it was 10 years ago. It's been a relative ghost town for the last two. As one who has been there, on average 30-40 days a year for 30 years, I'm surprised you don't know that.

Well.... I'm not really surprised.

quote:

So it appears that your position is that Vegas was doing just fine till the president cautioned people against spending the rent money on gambling and booze.
No, you'll have to quote where you used to make that assumption. I said it reflected on his ignorance about the impact of his words affect markets.

quote:

For a person who constantly carps on the theme of responsibility your opposition to the presidents call for responsibility seems to place you in a rather sticky ethical position.
Once again you missed the point - maybe it's simply beyond your comprehension. When any local economy is down, a leader doesn't specify it as a bad example in a context to keep it down; not an intelligent one having the best interest of ALL his citizens under consideration.

It takes a perspective outside a blind political identity to be able to focus on the subject and consequences.
quote:

Doesn't it hurt your mouth when you talk out of both sides of it at the same time?

You're so cute to be concerned about my mouth and it's discomfort! Thank you for your concern!

Does it hurt your head to think contrarily to your political indoctrination?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/3/2010 5:43:48 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 5:39:13 PM   
MrMister


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Status: offline 		I'm just curious to know; would you say (or anyone else who would like to answer) that Obama's comments have a positive impact, a negative impact, or no impact at all?

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 6:05:48 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
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Status: offline 		What haven't you heard, his one sentenced tanked Vegas, though since he said it only a short time ago, it seems odd that it could travel back in time and screw everything up.  But then again that is what someone is saying, 1 sentence tanked Vegas

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 6:10:14 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"Smart?" Well, some people were saying that he was a "Brilliant Legal Scholor" a year or so ago but that doesn't really mean anything as they're all brilliant legal scholors.

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 6:53:14 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Hey, if Obama's statements have so much power, can't he just use his voodoo powers and say "Go to Vegas. Hire people. Pass health care reform"?

These are not the droids you're looking for.

--Obama Wan Kenobi

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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 7:06:38 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 7:14:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Hey, if Obama's statements have so much power, can't he just use his voodoo powers and say "Go to Vegas. Hire people. Pass health care reform"?

These are not the droids you're looking for.

--Obama Wan Kenobi


The results on the health care front with the polarity he enjoyed do point to him being impotent as well as incompetent to accomplish anything under ideal circumstances. You may be right though, after the no confidence vote result in Massachusetts his position on anything may be irrelevant at this point.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 7:18:15 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		As I've noted elsewhere, health care is dead, no matter what they're saying.

He has no coattails. Even where popular, it doesn't translate to other candidates. Dems will run for cover.

If he can still pull it off somehow, I'll be fucking impressed.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 7:20:48 PM   
MrMister


Posts: 272
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Status: offline 		In response to your question Merc:

No, decidedly not, for look how he relies on force rather than reason.

If he were smart, he would persuade us with reason.

If a person is stupid, they resort to force.

Therefore, Obama is not smart.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 7:25:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

look how he relies on force rather than reason.

If he were smart, he would persuade us with reason.

If a person is stupid, they resort to force.


Have you told this to any neocons?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? - 2/3/2010 7:42:37 PM   
MrMister


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

look how he relies on force rather than reason.

If he were smart, he would persuade us with reason.

If a person is stupid, they resort to force.


Have you told this to any neocons?


For what purpose, I was answering Merc's question.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 60
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