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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:02:28 AM   
popeye1250


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Julia, what is a "migrant neighborhood?"

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:06:19 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Julia, what is a "migrant neighborhood?"


A neighborhood comprised of people who come here from other places.,... many of which go back several generations... like I go to school with people who are citizens whose parents came here or grandparents came here... they are not all "illegal"... in fact most of them are not....especially in the Cambodian community, etc.

There are two young people in my year in grad school that are giving back to the children in the communities they came from because the outlook for many of them is not good educationally and they want to contribute something back...


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:13:50 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you completely...where did I ever say anything different?

How many millions of immigrants do you think had to learn English and take a civics test... they managed.

I am just saying the idea is not racists.

Butch



I would disagree... those who do not want brown people to vote and think that literacy tests will keep them from it, well yeah, that is racist



There are illiterate white ...red… and yellow people too dear...now who is being a racist...do you think only brown people can be illiterate…you are typical.

Butch



I quoted references and stats... you are just attacking with no information to back you...

I work in a field that is used to address questions like these, and in fact just took a class that addressed what I am saying last semester.... and I have to say it is not shocking for people of different ethnic backgrounds to know that money gets spent on predominantly White kids than on kids that live in ethnically diverse and migrant neighborhoods... so please save your accusations of racism...THAT is typical from someone who does not want to address the education disparity that truly exists in this country



Interesting. I didn't see any stats or references in that quote, but I could be mistaken. However, for your other point you do realize that the top 3 in spending per capita are DC, New York, and New Jersey? I would also point out that most studies show that there is no correlation between spending and student performance. In other words, it is not how much money is spent per student, but more likely how the money is spent per student.

I noted that most studies suggest this, there are opposing views on the issue such as the study by Larry V. Hedges and Rob Greenwald; who found that there is a significant impact on student achievement with increased funding.

Just from my personal experiences over these last couple of years (being back in school), I would suggest that a majority of students in college couldn't pass a civics test, much less read and understand it. That is what scares me.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:49:20 AM   
kdsub


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Do you always ramble...do you not read the posts... do you always get your mindset on a thought and forget to read what others say?

Your posts to me on this subject having nothing to do with what I am saying...perhaps you need to take another class...One on reading comprehension .

Butch


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:54:27 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

What I mean is that there are a lot of people that never learned to read that still have enough brains to be able to vote in a coherent enough manner so as not to deny them the franchise... that's all...

example... some people have learning disabilities... this does not mean that they are cognitively so regressed as to be considered intellectually disabled....



Then why do we require immigrants who want to become voting citizens learn to read and write English and take a civics test?

Where I worked we required every new worker to take and pass a CDL- A test within 6 months before they could become full time employees. Some could not read so we provided them an employee to help them with study time and set up a verbal test with the state agency. There were no problems at all.

We also did our best to make adjustments that allowed the partially disabled to perform duties by modifying equipment… They make excellent employees and are usually quick learners. No problem at all

Just because some cannot read, or is disabled, does not mean they can’t, with help, pass a civics test.

Now I am not advocating this but it is not a racists comment in my opinion anyway and that is the only reason I commented in the first place… Just not realistic or practical… And I really do not like the Tea Beggars movement.

Butch




You do realize we have millions of functionally illiterate folks in this country

Found this link that broke it down by race in 1975... long ago, but still proportionately minorities still suffer from from functional illiteracy

quote:

Statistics indicating that the problem of illiteracy is lessening mask a greater problem--that of functional illiteracy. Functional illiterates may have some reading and writing skills but are not able to apply them as functioning members of society. A 1975 study using the most sophisticated instrument that had ever been used to determine illiteracy in the United States adult population indicated that 16% of white, 44% of black, and 56% of Spanish-speaking adults in the United States were unable to write a check, address an envelope, or calculate the amount of change they should receive from a purchase with a 20-dollar bill. Parents and students blame the educational system for this failure while educators blame the students themselves. Researchers contend that children are watching too much television and not reading enough. The cost of functional illiteracy to the national economy in decreased productivity and in social welfare expenses is estimated at six billion dollars a year, but it is difficult to determine how many aspects of economic life are linked, directly or indirectly, to functional illiteracy. A number of federal and state funded programs such as Title I and Right to Read have been initiated along with basic adult education and literacy training by employers. In addition, private organizations are working to stem the tide of functional illiteracy in the United States. (HTH)
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED224030&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED224030

Then there is this

quote:

In the United States, according to Business magazine, an estimated 15 million functionally illiterate adults held jobs at the beginning of the 21st century. The American Council of Life Insurers reported that 75% of the Fortune 500 companies provide some level of remedial training for their workers. All over the U.S.A. 30 million (14% of adults) are unable to perform simple and everyday literacy activities.[1]


Here is the thing, just because someone cannot read or write they still deserve the same shot at self determination that the rest of us have... they still pay their taxes and they still deserve representation... if not then this isn't America anymore



for those who missed it the first time


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:58:07 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

There are illiterate white ...red… and yellow people too dear...now who is being a racist...do you think only brown people can be illiterate…you are typical.

non sequitur... I never said that "only" brown people are illiterate or functionally so, I said that a disproportionate number percentage wise are... which is why Jim Crow was effective, and would still be today if implemented...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:59:16 AM   
philosophy


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FR

....does anyone know what the literacy rate was when the founding fathers set up the voting system in the first place? Was it higher or lower than today?
If lower, then isn't demanding literacy as a condition for voting anti-american?

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:06:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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Definition of Illiteracy
The exact nature of the criterion varies, so that illiteracy must be defined in each case before the term can be used in a meaningful way. In 1930 the U.S. Bureau of the Census defined as illiterate any person over ten years of age who was unable to read and write in any language. By the next census (1940), however, the concept of "functional" illiteracy was adopted, and any person with less than five years of schooling was considered functionally illiterate, or unable to engage in social activities in which literacy is assumed.

Since that time, the concept of functional illiteracy has grown in popularity among American educators, but the standards of definition have changed with the increasing complexity of most social activities. Thus, by 1970, the U.S. Office of Education considered at least six years of schooling (and sometimes as many as eight) to be the minimum criterion for functional literacy. In 1990 over 5% of the adult population living in the United States did not meet that criterion

http://www.reference.com/browse/illiteracy?jss=1&o=100042

So while many here believe its simply because you cant read write or 'rithmatic, its not that simple.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:12:26 AM   
Thadius


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Tazzy,

That is why I bought me one of these new fangled electronical cypering machines. It also does all the reading and writing for me...

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:19:07 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So while many here believe its simply because you cant read write or 'rithmatic, its not that simple.



...yup, your analysis is correct as far as i can understand. However i was attempting to drive at a much more simple point. The founding fathers set up a system of voting based on certain assumptions regarding the ability of voters to actually vote. Did they consider literacy to be a necessary precursor to the ability to vote or not? If not, then to argue for literacy tests prior to voting is clearly unamerican.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:26:39 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

There are illiterate white ...red… and yellow people too dear...now who is being a racist...do you think only brown people can be illiterate…you are typical.

non sequitur... I never said that "only" brown people are illiterate or functionally so, I said that a disproportionate number percentage wise are... which is why Jim Crow was effective, and would still be today if implemented...



Julia it is amazing we agree on so much but in the last few threads we seem to be butting heads out of misunderstandings.

I am not refuting your statistics…I never in all my posts suggested there be a civics test for voting…All I have said is we need more education in America and a civics class would be a good start… Then I said it is ironic that we require naturalized citizens to learn English and take a civics test.

Finally I said the statement was not in itself racist for the above reasons. I don’t know the speaker in question so I don’t know what is in his heart but the statement itself is not racist.

Butch


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:36:31 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Tazzy,

That is why I bought me one of these new fangled electronical cypering machines. It also does all the reading and writing for me...


~grins

Master has one too... me!



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:38:56 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Tazzy,

That is why I bought me one of these new fangled electronical cypering machines. It also does all the reading and writing for me...


~grins

Master has one too... me!





Hmmm... where does he plug you in at? Nevermind.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:44:00 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So while many here believe its simply because you cant read write or 'rithmatic, its not that simple.



...yup, your analysis is correct as far as i can understand. However i was attempting to drive at a much more simple point. The founding fathers set up a system of voting based on certain assumptions regarding the ability of voters to actually vote. Did they consider literacy to be a necessary precursor to the ability to vote or not? If not, then to argue for literacy tests prior to voting is clearly unamerican.


Here is what i found about the founders...

Suffrage
Background
When the United States was founded, only white, male, property-owners were allowed to vote. The Founding Fathers felt that only property-owners would take this right of citizenship seriously since they owned a literal stake in the young nation.
During the early 1800s, the property requirement was lifted as the government became obligated to offer suffrage to veterans fighting for the United States. By the mid-1800s, one had to be a white male in order to vote, but did not need to own property.




Suffrage Amendments

15th (1870) Provided universal male suffrage (voting).
19th (1920) Provided female suffrage (voting).
24th (1964) Bans poll tax as a requirement for voting.
26th (1971) Set minimum voting age at 18.

African-American Suffrage
The early Women's Suffrage Movement and the Abolitionist Movement merged in order to achieve their common aims. However, after the Civil War, it soon became clear that while voting would be opened to all men, regardless of color, it would still be denied to women. The Fifteenth Amendment, passed in 1870, provided universal male suffrage. However, voting rights would soon be denied to African-American men.

After Reconstruction ended in 1876, voting rights were denied to African-American men through a variety of means, including the poll tax, literacy tests, and grandfather clause:

Post-Reconstruction Disenfranchisement

Poll Tax State laws that required that citizens pay a tax in order to be able to vote.
Literacy Test State laws that required that citizens demonstrate the ability to read in order to be able to vote.
Grandfather Clause State laws that required that citizens prove that their grandfather was eligible to vote in order to be able to vote themselves.

African-Americans were often uniformed or misled as to the date that poll taxes were due, thereby disqualifying their vote. The literacy tests administered to African-Americans were often much more difficult than those given to poor whites, causing them to fail. Since most freedmen had only been recently freed from slavery, their grandfather had definitely been slaves, making it impossible for them to meet the grandfather clauses enacted in many states. Thus, African-Americans were disenfranchised until the modern Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s and 1960s.

The Civil Rights Movement renewed the struggle for African-American voting rights, resulting in the passage of a series of federal laws and an amendment to the Constitution

24th Amendment Banned the use of the poll tax.
Voting Rights Act of 1965 Banned the use of literacy tests and authorized Federal examiners to register African-Americans to vote if necessary.

Today, the African-American vote accounts for a large percentage of the electorate. Politicians carefully plan their election strategies and support for legislation and programs based on the needs of this group.

Women's Suffrage
The struggle for women's suffrage dates back to the early 1800s. By the mid-1800s, women had become organized under the leadership of women such as Lucretia Mott, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony.

In 1848, suffragists organized the Seneca Falls Convention in upstate New York. There, Stanton composed the Declaration of Rights and Sentiments which was modeled after the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration of Rights and Sentiments contained several resolutions including that a man should not withhold a woman's rights, take her property or refuse to allow her to vote.

Suffragists were greatly disappointed to learn that women were excluded from the Fifteenth Amendment that granted all men the right to vote. However, they continued to protest, march, and organize in the hope that they would soon be able to legally vote.

Finally in 1920, the Nineteenth Amendment was passed which provided women with the right to vote.

Vietnam Conflict
Protest against the Vietnam Conflict also led to suffrage reform. At the time, eighteen-year olds were being drafted to fight by the United States in Vietnam. Many protestors pointed out that while these young men could be drafted, they were not eligible to vote until they had reached the age of twenty-one. The inequity was realized because these soldiers could not vote for a policy they were being forced to carry out, at risk of their own lives.

Subsequently, the Twenty-sixth Amendment was passed making the minimum voting age the same as the draft age of eighteen.

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/ushisgov/themes/reform/suffrage.htm

So, it shows that literacy was NOT a condition initially to vote... only that you are white and male. How many of us would have been left out on voting?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:45:42 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Tazzy,

That is why I bought me one of these new fangled electronical cypering machines. It also does all the reading and writing for me...


~grins

Master has one too... me!





Hmmm... where does he plug you in at? Nevermind.


~grins

anywhere he likes? he has not seen this message, but i do believe he would approve of its contents.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:46:46 AM   
Thadius


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Could one not assume from the original "conditions" that literacy was an assumption? (Just curious)

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:51:53 AM   
mnottertail


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"...comparing the American colonies first with the English metropolis
and then with Ireland (which was colonized by the English at roughly
the same time as North America), I would maintain that literacy rates
in the colonies on the eve of the Revolution were only slightly below
those in England (rates among whites were roughly the same as those in
provincial England, but extensive illiteracy among American blacks and
Indians lowered the overall American rates) and significantly above
those in Ireland, testifying to the vitality and efficacy of American
educational institutions.'
From Traditions of American education, pp. 32-33


Lawrence Cretin (LOL, how appropo is that name here?)

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 11:57:09 AM   
Thadius


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Ron,

Thanks for the citing. Indeed a name that says it all.

I was just pointing out that there was probably an assumption that a property owner at that time was literate or at the very least had more education than those that did not (in general).

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:13:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Could one not assume from the original "conditions" that literacy was an assumption? (Just curious)


Its my understanding that not all land owners were literate, Master.

The general object of Jefferson's educational scheme was to provide instruction "adapted to the years, to the capacity, and the condition of every one, and directed to their freedom and happiness" (D: p, 125). In 1814 he wrote: "every citizen needs an n education proportional to the condition and the pursuits of his life" (D: p, 125). For the average citizen who belonged to the "laboring" class, a basic level of elementary education would suffice. For those citizens who gave evidence of belonging to "the learned class", however, elementary education was to serve as the foundation for further study. Those boys "whom nature endowed with genius and virtue" required more advanced preparation in order to qualify them for their varied pursuits and duties in a republican society (D: p, 125).

He embraced education as the equalizer for all children. Goals and objectives of elementary education as written and presented by Jefferson in the "Rockfish Gap Report of 1818 (D: p, 120): - To give every citizen information he needs for the transaction of his own business - To enable him to calculate for himself, express and preserve his own ideas, contracts and accounts in writing. - To improve by reading, his morals and faculties. - To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either. - To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor, and judgment. - And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed.

7. Theory of Opportunity

Who should be educated?

Although Jefferson wrote about the need for education and self-governance, it is quite evident he saw a difference between the classes as far as educational opportunity. Jefferson viewed literacy as a liberating and transforming force the equalizer for the masses and the essential mechanism necessary for human liberation. He was a staunch proponent of a basic education for all. However, since he separated the laboring from the learned class, himself a member of the learned class, I would think he viewed the opinion of the learned class as that which ultimately would take precedence.


http://www.newfoundations.com/GALLERY/Jefferson.html

Of course Jefferson was pushing for an educational system in the US. But i do believe the push was great because so many were illiterate at the time.

At one time, a literate person was one who could sign his or her name. At other times, literacy was measured only by the ability to read and write. So when we see numbers saying 90% could read and right at the time of the Revolution here, one has to wonder if they truly could read or write.. or just could sign their name.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:24:27 PM   
Thadius


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I understand the differences between the understanding what "literacy" was.

My point, and even your own citation points out that there was a difference between the classes (one would assume that the well to do were in the educated or need to be further educated class). Further, that it was understood or at least argued at that time: in order for a citizen to understand and be responsible for their rights and duties they should be educated. It seems that Jefferson himself argued that such a condition was appropriate to being involved civicly and of great importance to those that would be elected.

I suggest that accordingly most of the laboring class did not own property, and thus were not in need of "higher" education. Don't get me wrong I am not arguing that being literate should be a requirement, I am simply arguing that at the time of founding the condition of owning property suggests an assumption that there was literacy among that class of individuals.

I could be wrong.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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