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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:26:13 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Ron,

Thanks for the citing. Indeed a name that says it all.

I was just pointing out that there was probably an assumption that a property owner at that time was literate or at the very least had more education than those that did not (in general).


...well, we're into mind reading land. What we can say, with certainty, is that literacy was not explicitally required, at least not until later.

Oh, and thanks to Tazzy and Ron for the informative posts. i sincerely appreciate their efforts.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:26:37 PM   
mnottertail


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the laboring classes that didnt own property got the right to vote much later (it was a veterans question that got it for them)

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:31:25 PM   
mnottertail


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not that this makes any difference, the supreme court banned literacy tests permanantly in 1975.

any 'literacy' amendment isnt going to get to get a chance at ratification.


Ron

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:43:00 PM   
tazzygirl


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i dont believe you are wrong in your thinking, Master Thadius.

But, also, many small landowners were not as well educated as the larger land owners. Most could only write their names, making them, then, literate, but not by standards now. There were also many land holders who were black, and those also owned slaves. Again, many could do little more than make a mark, or sign their name. By making the right to vote exclusive to white land owners, they blocked the black landowners from voting. by changing it to afford vets the ability to vote without owning land... but only white vets... then again ensured that blacks and women could not vote, regardless of how literate they were.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:49:02 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Ron,

Thanks for the citing. Indeed a name that says it all.

I was just pointing out that there was probably an assumption that a property owner at that time was literate or at the very least had more education than those that did not (in general).


...well, we're into mind reading land. What we can say, with certainty, is that literacy was not explicitally required, at least not until later.

Oh, and thanks to Tazzy and Ron for the informative posts. i sincerely appreciate their efforts.


Neither was that firearms be used for hunting or self defense.


Then again it may just be easier to cite from one of the citations that you have already accepted.

quote:


Jefferson cited a direct correlation between literacy, citizenship and successful self-government (D: p 80). With literacy came knowledge and discernment and with these came the means of safeguarding self-government and independence (D: p 81). Jefferson hypothesized that literacy and self-government work hand in hand and was a key component to self-preservation. The basis for Jefferson's belief system on the merits of literacy was derived from his own personal experiences related to reading in the pursuit of knowledge. Reading paved the way for self-discipline, self-governance, and self-efficacy. Jefferson viewed the link between literacy and successful citizenship as unambiguous and direct (D: p, 81). He saw literacy as a liberating and transforming force the equalizer for the masses and the essential mechanism necessary for human liberation.

Emphasis mine.

Oh and a portion that tazzy cited earlier:
quote:


Although Jefferson wrote about the need for education and self-governance, it is quite evident he saw a difference between the classes as far as educational opportunity. Jefferson viewed literacy as a liberating and transforming force the equalizer for the masses and the essential mechanism necessary for human liberation. He was a staunch proponent of a basic education for all. However, since he separated the laboring from the learned class, himself a member of the learned class, I would think he viewed the opinion of the learned class as that which ultimately would take precedence.


You suggest that we are out in mind reading territory, I suggest that simple deduction and logical reasoning suggests what I have stated. However, we can attempt to lay it out a bit more for you. Arguably the largest group of property owners were the Puritans, who believed heavily in learning to read and write as it helped with Bible studies. These are also the same people granted the right to vote and who helped to write many of the clauses and laws of the time. Simplified version help lay it out a bit better?

As a side note. The original conditions did not preclude all women from voting, as some states did allow widows of property owners the right.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:54:16 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i dont believe you are wrong in your thinking, Master Thadius.

But, also, many small landowners were not as well educated as the larger land owners. Most could only write their names, making them, then, literate, but not by standards now. There were also many land holders who were black, and those also owned slaves. Again, many could do little more than make a mark, or sign their name. By making the right to vote exclusive to white land owners, they blocked the black landowners from voting. by changing it to afford vets the ability to vote without owning land... but only white vets... then again ensured that blacks and women could not vote, regardless of how literate they were.


Indeed the extra conditions did control the "who" of being able to vote. Too, as I noted some states allowed widows of property owners to vote. Hell at one point our very own SCOTUS ruled that Native Americans living on a reservation had no right to vote because they didn't pay any taxes, and that was in the 20th century.

The only criteria I feel that is justifiable is that the voter is a citizen and living (added for my friends in Cook County).

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 12:56:20 PM   
tazzygirl


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lol Master

such radical ideas. i got a few of my own. but, if i were to post them, i would be labeled a liberal, and, possibly worse, a bleeding heart.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 8:38:34 PM   
thornhappy


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Yep, a fate worse than death!

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 8:42:40 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

We have all met some people who are so ignorant and clueless that we cringe at the thought of them voting


And in many cases, cringe at the thought of the ignorance and cluelessness of those for whom they are voting.

Does anyone care that the Supreme Court already struck down such tests?

[Yeah, I guess it was a silly question...]




We all know he was trying to gain political support by saying something popular among the Tea Party faithful. I don't believe the statement he made was racist in itself... I don't know what was in his heart. But to claim he is a racist based on that statement is wrong.

When I was talking of the tests I was talking of the requirements for naturalized citizens... they are required to take a civics test. I thought that was ironic.

Butch



I don't think he's racist.

I think he's xenophobic and ill-informed.


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 8:54:09 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I don't think he's racist.

I think he's xenophobic and ill-informed.



Oh I think he knows what he is saying is impossible...I think the people he was talking to are ill-informed and he is taking advantage of them for political gain.

I think the Tea Partiers are myopic and don’t care to see the big picture of Americas needs.

Butch


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:06:30 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Voter litercy tests? The Dems will try to block that, half of their "base" can't read or write.



Heyyy, wait a minute!

I thought we were all snobby condescending college elitists, and that you all were the humble workin stiffs.

Which is it, man?

I will be back, just stepping out for some brie and white wine.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:18:10 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I am not refuting your statistics…I never in all my posts suggested there be a civics test for voting…All I have said is we need more education in America and a civics class would be a good start… Then I said it is ironic that we require naturalized citizens to learn English and take a civics test.

Finally I said the statement was not in itself racist for the above reasons. I don’t know the speaker in question so I don’t know what is in his heart but the statement itself is not racist.



If you look at the context of his comments, and the historicity of them, then it becomes evident to me that it is indeed a racist comment that is intended to pander to tea party people, that often sport signs that are very derogatory to the first African American president of this country...

Now being anti-Obama is not in and of itself racist... but when one speaks to crowds with Obama on signs depicted as a witch doctor, pandering to the lowest common denominator, well yeah... making statements that harken back to the days of "separate but equal", and  Jim Crow... well, yeah, that is racist to me... at least I interpret it that way. You are free to view it in a completely different paradigm... it is America after all....


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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:30:15 PM   
kdsub


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And I thank you for your permission....

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:31:33 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

And I thank you for your permission....


I wasn't giving permission.... I was stating a fact


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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:36:22 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

And I thank you for your permission....


I wasn't giving permission.... I was stating a fact




Why start with facts now...you were doing just fine making up descriptions of people you don’t know...although I did the same come to think of it.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:39:47 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Why start with facts now...you were doing just fine making up descriptions of people you don’t know...although I did the same come to think of it.



I thought this might show how I am not making shit up... a "tea partier"

Edited to add.... there are many many more examples....





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/10/2010 9:40:39 PM >


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:45:50 PM   
kdsub


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Considering there are hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps a few millions who claim to be tea party sympathetic I think you are being irresponsible painting them all because of a few fanatics.

Most are just like me and you worried about taxes…but if you want to call them all racists be my guess… or because he was white… you as a white are also racists...see easy to make stupid assumptions.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:50:36 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Considering there are hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps a few millions who claim to be tea party sympathetic I think you are being irresponsible painting them all because of a few fanatics.

Most are just like me and you worried about taxes…but if you want to call them all racists be my guess… or because he was white… you as a white are also racists...see easy to make stupid assumptions.

Butch



I know that not everyone that goes to tea parties is a racist... i would never say that...

I will say, with good reason, that those who are often attracted to them are also the very same people that are threatened that there is a Black man in the White House...  These are the same people that jumped on the Birther Band Wagon along with Lou Dobbs... fearful of immigrants, fearful of a Hawaiian born Black president named Barrack Hussein Obama. If there had been so much disdain over taxes and deficits, why not make an issue when Bush was in office? He was no fiscal conservative for a fact.

Edited to add... bringing up the return of Jim Crow to feed into the fears of those already afraid of a Black man winning again in 2012 is fanning the flames of racial tension.



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/10/2010 9:54:40 PM >


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 9:52:09 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I think a test like that would be a good thing. If more voters knew how to read, McCain / Palin would be in office right now.


I got the chance to talk to McCain about his positions in '99 and really liked him but by the time he was done selling his soul so that his own party wouldn't backstab him again, well he was unelectable. Sometimes he couldn't even look people in the eye while stating "his" positions.

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RE: Tea Party speaker calls for voter literacy tests - 2/10/2010 10:01:26 PM   
kdsub


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I attended a tea party rally of a few thousand people here in St. Louis just to see what their platform was... They were most all middle-income families under heavy tax pressures that were worried about the added burden of healthcare and the economic give aways... There was not one fanatic or racists person that I could see or hear and no radical signs or speakers. Not one person attacked Obama as a black man in the Presidency.

Now I don't agree at all with their political stance but they are good people that I believe are not looking at the big picture. They are shortsighted looking at their pocket books rather than the future of their children.

You are too fixated of a false mental picture of the nature of these people...remember this is America and people can disagree with your political beliefs without being racists.

Butch

Edited to say goodnight

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/10/2010 10:04:40 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 140
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