RE: Doormats

RE: Doormats (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:05:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Why does someone feel the need to post a comment about not having anything to say?(waits for the smartarse sarcastic answers to an obvious illogical action)[:D] Actually I missed a post from NZ last night because I was tired, then I saw it this morning when reviewing the thread, and then I realized I indirectly answered the question in my response to someone else... But you know.. I can be the biggest smart ass in the world to people who need it, NZ isn't someone I am likely to be a smart ass to, but I am starting to think you are Works for me. People who can't debate me usually prefer that, true Whatever you want to think is fine by me..I don't have to live withya.

Icarys -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth *~ Fast Wipe ~* It's threads and debates like this one that point to a contradiction in the belief that 'lifestyle' people are more intelligent than 'vanillas'. Perhaps it is something else. The precursor debate of distinguishing slave v. submissive; seems to have been played out and is now considered unworthy of comment for all but 'newbies' and those who enjoy mocking them. Is it the product of group insecurity displayed primarily in this thread by females afraid to be associated with the perception of negativity associated with a word? It's a word! The power of it as a word doesn't come from the person saying it or even labeling you with it. The power derives from the recipient, or those afraid of being labeled by a word they feel denigrates them and what they do in the context of their relationship. It's a word. Whether as debate fodder, from ignorance, or out of jealousy; if it hurts or affects you the problem is with you. Particularly amusing is when I see people assigning their personal aversion to a specific act to distinguish themselves from the doormat label. It's like the Meatloaf song; "I would do anything for love"!"; but I won't to THAT! Well hell then, okay in that case you're NOT a doormat! Does that really help or change anything about whatever it is you do, or how you perceive yourself? If so - you need confidence more than you need a definitive word definition. Really, what's the purpose or goal in coming to a common reference? What would happen if all other dictionary definitions and web references were reduced to one? Based upon the posts the only purpose it would serve would be to let people point to it as a benchmark to say what they are not. Defining what you are is a much more productive exercise. However, you have to be confident enough to not care what words, and which definition or reference they have in mind, when someone else uses them to try to describe you. That seems to be the disconnect and problem I'm observing regarding the word "doormat". I agree absolutely..It's completely a personal issue...My only problem with any of it is the seemingly impossible ability of others to except that there are people who are a positive side of that word and that they have a right to be here just like everyone else..Whatcha gonna do *shurgs

juliaoceania -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:18:16 AM)
quote: You don't know the first thing about what I want. Stop pretending you do.. What I want is someone who has a heart of gold..who doesn't mind getting dirty from time to time sure and your right..somebody who doesn't have a chip on their shoulders in life about their position in it..someone who isn't such a smartarse know it all with a bad attitude about such a position. I've loved a few women just like what a majority of you point your fingers in disgust at...They had grace and class in their submission..If I'm going to be honest..I don't see any grace in a whole lot of submissives anymore. Your so worried over the fear of what might happen or have the notion that what you have is god's gift to someone that it hinders a deeper connection...I personally think that's where most of the problem is to begin with. I could care less what you find attractive in a female. I have a partner and he loves every smartassed hair on my head, and when I am a smart ass to him it is to make him laugh, and we laugh a lot. I am completely accepted for the debate driven, opinionated tall glass of lemonade that I am. He can actually talk to me, which is a major portion of the service that he requires of me.... He wanted a brainy submissive that studies anthropology... First of all, this is not about your partners, it is about starting a thread because some submissives do not like being termed doormats and somehow you took this to be a sign of disrespect to all those who you think of as doormats... Some people wouldn't call their doms "daddy", and they think it is creepy that I do... should I proclaim all doms are "daddys", even though most wouldn't like it? My sigline says Once you Label me you negate me... why not allow people to label themselves and have tolerance for their self applied labels instead of getting bent out of shape that they do not subscribe to yours? It doesn't make me intolerant that I do not self identify as a doormat and that I have a negative view of the term.

Icarys -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:29:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: You don't know the first thing about what I want. Stop pretending you do.. What I want is someone who has a heart of gold..who doesn't mind getting dirty from time to time sure and your right..somebody who doesn't have a chip on their shoulders in life about their position in it..someone who isn't such a smartarse know it all with a bad attitude about such a position. I've loved a few women just like what a majority of you point your fingers in disgust at...They had grace and class in their submission..If I'm going to be honest..I don't see any grace in a whole lot of submissives anymore. Your so worried over the fear of what might happen or have the notion that what you have is god's gift to someone that it hinders a deeper connection...I personally think that's where most of the problem is to begin with. I could care less what you find attractive in a female. I have a partner and he loves every smartassed hair on my head, and when I am a smart ass to him it is to make him laugh, and we laugh a lot. I am completely accepted for the debate driven, opinionated tall glass of lemonade that I am. He can actually talk to me, which is a major portion of the service that he requires of me.... He wanted a brainy submissive that studies anthropology... First of all, this is not about your partners, it is about starting a thread because some submissives do not like being termed doormats and somehow you took this to be a sign of disrespect to all those who you think of as doormats... Some people wouldn't call their doms "daddy", and they think it is creepy that I do... should I proclaim all doms are "daddys", even though most wouldn't like it? My sigline says Once you Label me you negate me... why not allow people to label themselves and have tolerance for their self applied labels instead of getting bent out of shape that they do not subscribe to yours? It doesn't make me intolerant that I do not self identify as a doormat and that I have a negative view of the term. The first part is true..The second part isn't..You are in fact intolerant as far as I can tell... For the record I'm glad he thinks as highly of you as you do yourself....

juliaoceania -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:37:41 AM)
quote: The first part is true..The second part isn't..You are in fact intolerant as far as I can tell... For the record I'm glad he thinks as highly of you as you do yourself.... I am glad too, self esteem is a good thing in this world, it keeps one from being treated in ways they don't wanna be treated... I want everyone in this world to have a high opinion of themselves and to be treated in a way that feels good to them. I think that people who have relationships in which person A cedes control over everything to person B to be intriguing and I think that it has a certain beauty to me. I do not care what they call themselves or their relationship.. as long as everyone is happy in it, I am happy for them.. the labels don't mean jack squat to me, other than don't call a rose a piece of shit and then proclaim it smells the same even though you renamed it... The people you describe loving are roses in my eyes, not doormats.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:41:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth *~ Fast Wipe ~* Really, what's the purpose or goal in coming to a common reference? What would happen if all other dictionary definitions and web references were reduced to one? Based upon the posts the only purpose it would serve would be to let people point to it as a benchmark to say what they are not. Defining what you are is a much more productive exercise. However, you have to be confident enough to not care what words, and which definition or reference they have in mind, when someone else uses them to try to describe you. That seems to be the disconnect and problem I'm observing regarding the word "doormat". I agree absolutely..It's completely a personal issue...My only problem with any of it is the seemingly impossible ability of others to except that there are people who are a positive side of that word and that they have a right to be here just like everyone else..Whatcha gonna do shurgs quote:* I agree absolutely..It's completely a personal issue...My only problem with any of it is the seemingly impossible ability of others to except that there are people who are a positive side of that word and that they have a right to be here just like everyone else..Whatcha gonna do *shurgs Well Icarys, you have to appreciate that there is more 'dominance' exibited by those identifying as submissive than there is from those self labeled dominant. What I do is discount any label and observe behavior and narrative representations where people provide insight about themselves. I see a lot of 'qualifying'. It isn't just exhibited by "I'll do anything for my dominant - but I won't do that!". It also is personified by; "I'm a submissive, but I have a job/school/children/parents (pick one) that takes piority over anything my dominant requests." Is conditional submission dominance or submission? On the dominant side, the desire to be on the given side of the flogger at any opportunity provided, empowers submisssives to take that stance. Often non-consent is the demarcation to define 'abuse'; however I'd say taking advantage of opportunities provided by conditional submission are just as abusive. As a dominant sadist I've taken advantage of those opportunities often in the past. When the session was over, or when the enabling became boring - I left. I was seeking submission and desired a position of total dominance where I set the conditions; however I wanted to have some fun along the way. I didn't want conditions and any bottom sensation seeking individual who labeled themself 'submissive' who set them, set up the reason why any long term relationship wasn't possible. I'd bet, this same reasoning is behind a lot of failed relationships.

Icarys -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:46:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The first part is true..The second part isn't..You are in fact intolerant as far as I can tell... For the record I'm glad he thinks as highly of you as you do yourself.... I am glad too, self esteem is a good thing in this world, it keeps one from being treated in ways they don't wanna be treated... I want everyone in this world to have a high opinion of themselves and to be treated in a way that feels good to them. I think that people who have relationships in which person A cedes control over everything to person B to be intriguing and I think that it has a certain beauty to me. I do not care what they call themselves or their relationship.. as long as everyone is happy in it, I am happy for them.. the labels don't mean jack squat to me, other than don't call a rose a piece of shit and then proclaim it smells the same even though you renamed it... The people you describe loving are roses in my eyes, not doormats. Self esteem is a great thing but over inflated sense of it is just as bad as anything it mirrors.

Smutmonger -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:48:56 AM)
Merc...I can totally understand the difference between the conditional-and the passion you can feel for one with a 100% commitment to you. I see nothing wrong with subs who have a lot of conditions and limits.....but I do find them rather frustrating, and they tend to shut down my interest and desire after a while. Potential is everything.

juliaoceania -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:50:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The first part is true..The second part isn't..You are in fact intolerant as far as I can tell... For the record I'm glad he thinks as highly of you as you do yourself.... I am glad too, self esteem is a good thing in this world, it keeps one from being treated in ways they don't wanna be treated... I want everyone in this world to have a high opinion of themselves and to be treated in a way that feels good to them. I think that people who have relationships in which person A cedes control over everything to person B to be intriguing and I think that it has a certain beauty to me. I do not care what they call themselves or their relationship.. as long as everyone is happy in it, I am happy for them.. the labels don't mean jack squat to me, other than don't call a rose a piece of shit and then proclaim it smells the same even though you renamed it... The people you describe loving are roses in my eyes, not doormats. Self esteem is a great thing but over inflated sense of it is just as bad as anything it mirrors. My self image is rooted in the real life community that I come from, not my online connections... My Daddy would not be happy with me if I adopted any other opinion than his of who I am, my good qualities, and since he thinks I am beautiful, kind, empathetic, intelligent, and have a good sense of humor, it must be true... he is my Daddy after all and his opinion is more important than any other

NihilusZero -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 8:57:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl We dont always like the commands we receive. There are days when we dont wish to obey. But we do to please, its natural for a submissive to want to please on some level. When that level becomes harmful to one, then its entering doormat territority. This is something I've been tossing about in my head. Part of what seems to be suggested of the doormat is that, in situations such as these, the willing sacrifice of doing the unwanted thing is due to a certain naivete or 'blindness'...but what if that martyrdom is done specifically because of the fact that serving, to them, is just a higher priority (in action) than reticence? It's actually fairly common to view certain types of martyrdom as virtuous if it's easy to see the benefactor(s) of that martyrdom as noble, which brings me back to the fact that it seems a great determining part of whether someone would qualify as a doormat or not (based on this definition) actually has little to do with the s-type at all, but rather the D-type and Hir 'character'. [Edit to add:] I'm starting to see the doormat issue as similar to people who openly trust 'too much', in the sense that the only thing wrong with being that sort of person is the fact that humanity is filled with people who would abuse it. But then, that very though started steering me back down the "abuse" issue which becomes inevitably tangled in circular reasoning because "abuse" must ultimately be defined by the person receiving it (if we are to treat hir as an autonomous adult)...

SimplyMichael -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:02:39 AM)
To ME, the difference between a doormat and healthy adult submissive/slave is easy to spot. A healthy adult seeks out someone special to give them orders A doormat seeks out anyone to give them special orders

NihilusZero -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:04:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael A healthy adult seeks out someone special to give them orders A doormat seeks out anyone to give them special orders So, once already in the hands of a "special" adult, there is no discernible difference between the two.

NihilusZero -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:14:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl at what point do you decide the serial nutcase has to hit the curb and you walk out the door, lally? I've really started wondering, honestly, how many relationships or former relationships actually have anyone that would qualify as a "serial nutcase" as opposed to it just being an exaggeration we tend to put on former partners because of simply byproducts of bad compatibility. Getting hurt is part and parcel of most relationships. Obviously, we all work towards finding a partner with whom that happens to not happen because of fantastic compatibility...

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:15:33 AM)
To reassert a previous assertion... Where somebody can be too much of a doormat, that it causes troubles/problems in a D/s relationship. Where outside forces such as friends, family and such place demands upon the submissive. Basically, where the submissive ends up catering and trying to please everybody. A submissive that's a doormat in this context, ironic as it sounds may result in there being issues/problems in the D/s relationship. Because their submissive behavior is all over the place and not focused upon the D/s relationship alone. The sub may end up feeling a bit like a piece of rope in a tug of war contest. This very much would apply, even more so, if she did not stop and question/critique the wants of others being placed upon her. I can see a Dom truely getting upset by some rather "thoughtless" behavior by the doormat submissive.

Smutmonger -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:19:07 AM)
A lot of this comes from a dissonance in desire. People wanting different things from each other. Could it be that the desire to please is seen as somehow offensive when one person will actually do things others would find distasteful to others in service? And that,rather than seeing this as degrading,the one submitting feels it as empowering instead?

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:32:03 AM)
I'm still currently holding onto this View for the moment and it centers upon Discipline. This was after reflection upon tazzygirl's post to the thread and the following link she shared. http://www.ehow.com/how_5265493_not-doormat-people.html This is what helped me draw the following conclusions so far. Doormat = Somebody that lacks the assertive discipline of boundary management. No Discipline = No setting Boundary + No Asserting Boundary = Doormat Can Apply to Dominant, Submissive, Switch and Vanilla. This does not apply in the context of a well discplined slave, since the owner sets the boundary and the slave obeys and is well disciplined to follow. The slave might appear to be a Doormat, however does not lack discipline. The slave is not off trying to please the world and everybody in it, has high levels of self esteem and self worth. Clearly not a doormat???

Mercnbeth -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:41:56 AM)
quote: Merc...I can totally understand the difference between the conditional-and the passion you can feel for one with a 100% commitment to you. I see nothing wrong with subs who have a lot of conditions and limits.....but I do find them rather frustrating, and they tend to shut down my interest and desire after a while. There you go! An illustration of reality not on-line fantasy. I too see "nothing wrong with subs who have a lot of conditions". They are very useful commodities. In fact, they are more likely to represent the 'doormat' persona since they are used by sadists and dominants as targets of opportunity. I'd be much more likely to abuse a conditional submissive with safe-words than I would with one who didn't because I wouldn't need to rely on my ability to read and/or determine when the sensation had "gone too far". The submissive with the safe-word dictates and dominates that decision; while I don't have to 'read' or worry if anything I was doing was too intense. If it was, I'd hear 'red!' and being the honorable submissive sadist in that situation, I'd stop; suppressing as best I could a little sadistic giggle. As you say, after a while a dominant would tend to lose interest in that situation of submitting; especially if they are seeking a mental and emotional power exchange and connection. You move on from the person, not the desire for a outlet to placate sadistic desires. There is something to be said, and I greatly appreciate, the symbiotic relationship between a dominant submissive sensation seeker and their facilitating dominant sensation seeking partner. I was one for the majority of time I was involved in the lifestyle. Frankly I didn't care what anybody called me or called themselves. Given the opportunity to have some FUN and enjoy myself with a submissive playmate superseded any labeling encountered in the process.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:45:28 AM)
I would expect any sub/slave to be able to adhere to a set of boundaries that their Dominant partner establishes. (i.e. No Drinking without permission) and to not be a doormat when interacting with other people and be assertive about it. (i.e. No thank you I'm not drinking tonight, or let me make a phone call first). This would require Discipline. A sub/slave lacking Discipline, just might give in to the pressure of social influence of friends, family, neighbors or whoever and end up breaking boundaries because of her Doormatted Submissive Nature. All of which has nothing to do with the concept of being a Doormat that lends itself to abuse. Because they are letting other people walk all over them and the boundaries set forth by their Dom/Master/Owner. Intially I was not looking at Doormat being applied in this context, but rather with regards to being the possible subject of abuse.

Smutmonger -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:45:57 AM)
And yet,we so often see these same women complaining about "feeling used and empty" after scenes. It's like going to a pusher for another fix.

Icarys -> RE: Doormats (2/24/2010 9:56:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 I would expect any sub/slave to be able to adhere to a set of boundaries that their Dominant partner establishes. (i.e. No Drinking without permission) and to not be a doormat when interacting with other people and be assertive about it. (i.e. No thank you I'm not drinking tonight, or let me make a phone call first). This would require Discipline. A sub/slave lacking Discipline, just might give in to the pressure of social influence of friends, family, neighbors or whoever and end up breaking boundaries because of her Doormatted Submissive Nature. All of which has nothing to do with the concept of being a Doormat that lends itself to abuse. Because she is letting other people walk all over her and the boundaries set forth by her Dom/Master/Owner. Intially I was not looking at Doormat being applied in this context, but rather with regards to abuse. Maybe you'll make logic of this or maybe you won't..Who knows. I would with no hesitation rather take a female that had those issues than have the opposite. If she were having a problem not saying no to others and was getting spread to thin sure it might be an issue..Yet the mere fact that she had such a giving heart would draw me like a fly to a web and as her Master I would work on easing that a touch..IF I saw that as unhealthy for her. The mirror opposite of a female like that draws no interest from me. A lot of females that take pride in strength as far as I'm concerened are doing nothing more than hiding their decisions of fear or letting go. Extremely pliable doesn't always equal weakness. Strength to say no doesn't always equal power. So on and so on..

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