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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 11:19:33 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

agreed, to some extent, I am having some troubles with healthcare and beancounters and whatnot (not me personally, in my family) so you wont get shed of me easily, but if they would reinstitute the old VA system before Reagan primarily and Bushes (moreso W) decimated it, that would be a good healthcare system.

But I favor single payer and the government run healthcare that the senators get (using private insurers). Along with some other things. No beancounters allowed for them.



Clinton helped with taking it apart as well, got to love that means test.

Hell, I think we should pull their coverage and subject them to the system the way the rest of us are. Perhaps, that may open their eyes to where the real fixes and changes need to be made.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 11:20:46 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and this separate for cause.

So, there is a problem with our healthcare, our infrastructure, our future and more....

and our government is the root cause..... not always the policy or the law, but those who we elect to manage and sustain our government.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 11:24:35 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

That definitely could account for the difference. Having the disease detected earlier would extend the survival rate if it is set at 5 years. One could also conclude that with earlier detection, less radical procedures are required to treat and hence more women survive longer.

Thanks for the insight.


Yes, those who trust the information presented in the DVD will conclude that radical procedures tend to do more harm than good. There's much more, but I don't wish to derail this thread. IMO, the DVD is worth a look.

Radical procedures covers a pretty wide territory, though. Some are a lot more effective than others, like excising a tumour or cancerous organ that hasn't started to metastise yet.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 11:31:09 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		well, actually it advocates well for wellness style medicine, moreso than radical last ditch efforts.



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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 11:33:22 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thadius,

I think you're making a lot of assumptions (at least implied assumptions).

Wouldn't it be great if anyone could just have any care at all? Well, no. Why not? First, not all care is necessary or even desirable, and not everyone wants to hear it.

I have a doctor I like and trust. If he says I don't need something, I believe him. If he says to get the flu shot and here's why, I listen and do it. But not everyone trusts their doctors and/or are going to want to do everything possible whether it's realistically indicated or not. That's expensive and unnecessary.

That means someone or ones, somewhere and somehow, will have to make decisions regarding care, whether through public or private insurance. Can that be abused? Of course. It is--and by private insurance.

We need bean counters, like it or not. And we government regulation and oversight, like it or not.

And we need a better health care system, like it or not. In its absence, we have an expensive health care crisis treatment system, and we have a lawsuit-nervous overtreatment system. It's not working well.

Live well,

Tim




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/24/2010 11:34:41 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 11:56:47 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Thadius,

I think you're making a lot of assumptions (at least implied assumptions).

Wouldn't it be great if anyone could just have any care at all? Well, no. Why not? First, not all care is necessary or even desirable, and not everyone wants to hear it.

I have a doctor I like and trust. If he says I don't need something, I believe him. If he says to get the flu shot and here's why, I listen and do it. But not everyone trusts their doctors and/or are going to want to do everything possible whether it's realistically indicated or not. That's expensive and unnecessary.

That means someone or ones, somewhere and somehow, will have to make decisions regarding care, whether through public or private insurance. Can that be abused? Of course. It is--and by private insurance.

We need bean counters, like it or not. And we government regulation and oversight, like it or not.

And we need a better health care system, like it or not. In its absence, we have an expensive health care crisis treatment system, and we have a lawsuit-nervous overtreatment system. It's not working well.

Live well,

Tim




Tim,

Thanks for hitting on 2 other key parts of this discussion. Choice and liability.

In terms of choice shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want full on coverage, no coverage, or something in between? Fining me $325 a year for not having coverage is going to do what to bring down the costs to taxpayers when I have an emergency (all hypothetical, I have coverage), it definitely is not an ammount that comes close to paying premiums all year long. I suggest that many will choose to remain uninsured and pay the fine, because it is the lesser amount, especially the young and healthy.

Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.

WE are in agreement something needs to be done, I am leaning more towards tweaking than a complete overhaul.

Enjoying the beauty of the snow that has fallen recently,
Thadius

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 12:10:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.


Thad, I agree that this adds costs but the general consensus amongst the analysts is that this issue of tort reform is a drop in the ocean for what needs fixing that will control costs with healthcare. Many many more efficiencies can be found that are far more important than this.

Ron

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 12:20:21 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Letting wellness issues become medical emergencies also contributes greatly to cost.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 1:22:16 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

I have a tubal ligation at age 33 in California, no questions asked by my Ob/Gyn.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

Try getting a sterilization in this country if you are female-and under the age of forty or so. The conservative medical community simply will not do it. I can see why people travel to other countries to have things done.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 2:40:12 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.



This is propaganda that has been put out by health care opponents that is accepted at face value.  It gets repeated so many times it is assumed to be true but is far from the actual truth.

A Study To End the Frivolous Malpractice Lawsuit Myth



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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 3:08:21 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.



This is propaganda that has been put out by health care opponents that is accepted at face value.  It gets repeated so many times it is assumed to be true but is far from the actual truth.

A Study To End the Frivolous Malpractice Lawsuit Myth




Shit man, even the guy pushing for reform admits that defensive medicine and malpractice insurance add to the waste and higher costs.

Oh and...

A 2008 study from PricewaterhouseCoopers found that wasteful spending in the health system accounts for more than half of all of health care spending. The firm identified defensive medicine as the biggest area of excess.

There is no way to quantify exact amounts it adds to the total medical cost fiasco, because every doctor maintains a different risk profile.

Nobody is saying that it is the fix to all of the problems with our health care system, just that it is one problem with the system that could be fixed pretty easily.

Or should I have gone the route of posting the numerous articles about doctors closing their practices because of those costs?

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 3:16:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		fast reply... life expectancy is listed by country here, with our Canadian neighbors living living an average of 80.7 years...they come in at 11 worldwide...

In the US we come in at 38th with a lifespan of 78 years...

So I guess at the end of the day Canada kicks our ass in the only measure of health care that matters to me at the end of the day, where would I live longer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 3:21:38 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

I have a doctor I like and trust. If he says I don't need something, I believe him. If he says to get the flu shot and here's why, I listen and do it. But not everyone trusts their doctors and/or are going to want to do everything possible whether it's realistically indicated or not. That's expensive and unnecessary.



How does a patient know with absolute certainty that his doctor isn't recommending something because he's late on his yacht payment? Conversely, how does a doctor know with absolute certainty that his patient wouldn't sue his ass off, given an opportunity?

As long as we continue to endear ourselves to a system of competition, greed, and feeding off of one another... we are forced to trust... sometimes with devastating results.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 3:35:18 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Life expectancy and quality of health care are two completely different things. I bet if you tried really hard you could even come up with several reasons of why that is on your own.


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply... life expectancy is listed by country here, with our Canadian neighbors living living an average of 80.7 years...they come in at 11 worldwide...

In the US we come in at 38th with a lifespan of 78 years...

So I guess at the end of the day Canada kicks our ass in the only measure of health care that matters to me at the end of the day, where would I live longer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy



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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 3:42:40 PM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Not that you want any facts to correct your Fox recap, Archer, but for those who are curious, here's a piece with some pertinent facts.

Those readers may be particularly interested in the facts of mitral valve repair. 

As you may know, the number of Canadian patients who seek treatment in the US is miniscule, and the vast majority of those involve arrangements between care providers across the border from each other. I've already cited research on this point.

And one other note: while some cancer outcomes are indeed better in the US, the reason the insurance company asks you to disseminate that particular talking point is this:  The US trails in most other health outcomes, so those won't be in the talking points they ask you to repeat, but cancer, and many heart procedures, tend to be profitable, and more of that market is older, upper-income males.

I know a number of Americans whose health I care about, and I hope they get free soon from the current income-based rationing of care.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:00:57 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Life expectancy and quality of health care are two completely different things. I bet if you tried really hard you could even come up with several reasons of why that is on your own.


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply... life expectancy is listed by country here, with our Canadian neighbors living living an average of 80.7 years...they come in at 11 worldwide...

In the US we come in at 38th with a lifespan of 78 years...

So I guess at the end of the day Canada kicks our ass in the only measure of health care that matters to me at the end of the day, where would I live longer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy




I can't, so why don't you enlighten everyone?

It would seem to me that higher quality health care would lead logically and naturally into a longer life expectancy.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:05:05 PM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

The Dark Report


So, Racer Jim, "The Dark Report" is a good source of journalism about health care, huh?

I had a lot of fun on their page.

The Dark Report, we learn,  is a publication that "reports news about the latest facts and trends that affect medical laboratories, to investigate sensitive, dollar-driven hot spots. Our lab intelligence is the single-best source of the information you need to maximize the money you make, and the money you keep!"

Their concern for patients and good health care is touching, as one can see from this list of audio tapes for sale on the site:

Using Your Lab's Culture To Turbocharge Productivity & Profits
Increase Your Lab Revenue With Better Billing & Coding: How To Collect More Money While Slashing Collection Costs
Managed Care Lab Contracting: How To Negotiate The Best Pricing And Terms For Your Lab
Creating Patient Requisition Forms That Dramatically Increase Market Share and Profitability 



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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:13:25 PM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Letting wellness issues become medical emergencies also contributes greatly to cost.


We do have one problem in Ontario: a shortage of family practitioners. Clinics try to pick up the slack, but the chances are each time you go you'll see someone different, so you are constantly explaining things to people who can't help but treat you as a generic case. In five minutes they are expected to diagnose and treat, "next?".

It is difficult to detect the early symptoms of problems so they can be treated. When one is faced with the ordeal of being 30th in line at the clinic (and considering all the wonderful contagious things that one might find amongst so many sick people) it can be difficult to detect a problem and develop a therapeutic regimen.

In my case, I had lost 100 pounds and thought I was pretty much in the clear when I had my heart attack. What I didn't know was that the plaque build-up in my arteries had reached a crisis point.

I was lucky.

A regular doctor might have tested for it, detected it early and treated it. No doctor and who would suspect after losing 100 pounds?

My mother's mother died from a heart attack after losing weight, and she was only a couple years older than me. Perhaps there is a genetic link.

The point is, an underfunded medical system ends up costing more in the long run because early detection is the first cost-cutting measure. Family doctors don't get paid enough so they move on to more lucrative prospects.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:18:42 PM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:


How does a patient know with absolute certainty that his doctor isn't recommending something because he's late on his yacht payment?

As long as we continue to endear ourselves to a system of competition, greed, and feeding off of one another... we are forced to trust... sometimes with devastating results.


Good point, sf, and there's a mountain of data that shows the same result, over and over: When a doctor owns all or part of a lab that does, say, transesophageal echocardiography, suddenly the number of his patients referred for transesophageal echocardiographies skyrockets. It's easy to document, and has been, often.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:20:25 PM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
fast reply... life expectancy is listed by country here, with our Canadian neighbors living living an average of 80.7 years...they come in at 11 worldwide...

In the US we come in at 38th with a lifespan of 78 years...

So I guess at the end of the day Canada kicks our ass in the only measure of health care that matters to me at the end of the day, where would I live longer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy




Now compare our popularity world-wide ...



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When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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