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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:48:05 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Its A cause, as is obesity and exercise rates, lifestyle choices, etc., though I am not advocating government control over every minute detail of our lives.

The point was try to think more logically, a point which you apparently missed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

Coming from you, it surprises me that you list gun ownership (twice) as a leading cause for dying at an early age.

It is true (far more crimes turn into murders in the USA, although the overall crime rate is really not all that different), but is still really a drop in the bucket. Crime is actually a rarity in the USA (and in Canada) compared with natural causes of death. Think about it: about 2.5 million people die in the USA every year (from all causes including old age). We have a few tens of thousands of murders per year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
A few reasons are gun ownership, large smoggy cities, and violent crime rates. People who have excellent health care can still die at a fairly early age.





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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:49:59 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

Whats sad about all this is how people are afraid of lines because those who are currently uninsured and without medical care will be able to finally afford to see a Dr., freeing up ER space. reducing the number of sick days from work, adding to the general health and welfare of the communities they live in.

Its mindboggling how so many can look at others and only see themselves.


Well, I am one of those types of people that figures we should add in secondary and even tertiary costs of letting so many people go without adequate health care. For crying out loud, people could still purchase out of pocket care if they wanted to.


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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:53:57 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Patients who have the financial resources for the best treatment available are going to whatever hospital, doctor, clinic, etc they choose.  That is not the case for most people with basic insurance or no insurance.

Patients routinely leave the U.S. for cheaper treatments and surgeries in other countries too, Mexico is one popular destination.




usually because they cant get a corporate commercuially sanctioned procedure done here because some asshole determined for you that it wont work when in the case of cancer people die every day in hospitals that are corporate sanctioned and well thats ok.


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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:55:41 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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What is unbelievable is the way you so-called "progressives" applaud while all these scum sucking atourneys get unbelievably wealthy through bankrupting hard working physicians and driving everyone's health care costs up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I admire your bravado in the face of contrary fact, Sanity. It is what makes you so believable.


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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:56:35 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

Whats sad about all this is how people are afraid of lines because those who are currently uninsured and without medical care will be able to finally afford to see a Dr., freeing up ER space. reducing the number of sick days from work, adding to the general health and welfare of the communities they live in.

Its mindboggling how so many can look at others and only see themselves.


Well, I am one of those types of people that figures we should add in secondary and even tertiary costs of letting so many people go without adequate health care. For crying out loud, people could still purchase out of pocket care if they wanted to.




and then of course you have the medical industry plugging for preople to come in for a fucking hangnail instead of telling them how to manage it themselves.

quite the solution you have to make up for poor education in many cases.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:58:17 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


What is unbelievable is the way you so-called "progressives" applaud while all these scum sucking atourneys get unbelievably wealthy through bankrupting hard working physicians and driving everyone's health care costs up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I admire your bravado in the face of contrary fact, Sanity. It is what makes you so believable.



if you seen the level of health care or ever had to deal with it first hand we could get rid of 50% of these hard working physicians and the people would be 75% healthier as a result.

and those blood sucking attorneys are starting to get their asses kicked by lawyers.

yes there is a difference.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/25/2010 7:01:02 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:58:24 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, alot of people given the hard times are opting out of insurance, so those that say nothing is broke will carry the weight for the country.

Gotta love the haves.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 7:02:54 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

n
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, alot of people given the hard times are opting out of insurance, so those that say nothing is broke will carry the weight for the country.

Gotta love the haves.


I and others have pointed out the roots of the problem and ya all cant seem to grasp the depths. so suck it up and enjoy the shit system you got.  I am glad I am not a party to it.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 7:07:04 AM   
cloudboy


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Your title to the thread is dishonest.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 7:14:59 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

That will completely depend on what tax bracket I am in next year...

BULLSHIT...since you have no idea what the new law would be how can you make such an assinine statement?

I can tell you that personally I prefer an HSA with a supplemental policy for major problems... If we go to a universal single payer system, I would guess that my taxes are going to go up more than I pay for my current coverage and hopefully service will not be changed for the worse
So are you saying that you would prefer partial coverage to full coverage if the full coverage were the same price or less?
I realize that your next disingenuous question is how do I know that the costs will be less...look around the world at the countries with socialized medicine and look at the costs...but then you already knew that.

(there is no guarantee that it is going to get better with an influx of 30 million new patients and the shortage of family practioners and nurses).
You do know that it is the AMA that controls the number of doctors and nurses in this country don't you?


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/25/2010 7:16:02 AM >

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 5:50:41 PM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
Average award of malpractice lawsuits: $42,607.03. That number is from 2001, but hasn't changed significantly over the last decades.

Many states have capped awards at very low levels.

If a doctor does such shoddy work that his practice gets destroyed from a malpractice lawsuit, then that's the way it is intended to be.

Defensive medicine is a bogus claim. If a procedure isn't medically necessary, then there is no risk for a lawsuit, either.

If there is a problem with malpractice lawsuits, they should do what the American Society of Anesthesiologists did in the 1980s: analyze where the problems are, and find ways to eliminate medical errors. Today, their insurance rates are at 1985 levels. The University of Michigan did something similar in 2002, and their malpractice spending is down two thirds.

So the solution is not to do shoddy work, and you won't get sued.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Jury awards can be so massive though that they can destroy a practice, and so the resulting defensive medicine costs due to these awards dramatically drive up the price of health care. The damage to our health care system from ambulance chasing lawyers may be indirect, but its a problem just the same.
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
The lawsuits are a non-issue. Lawsuit awards are 0.58% of total health care expenditure (that number has remained unchanged well below 1% for the last 30 years, and there is no indication that it is increasing). If you add the total cost of lawsuits, you are still at around 1% of health care cost.

"Defensive medicine" is nonsense. Remember, you can't file a lawsuit unless somebody got harmed. Are they afraid that 85 year old woman will die during childbirth? If a hospital really did that testing, it was insurance fraud, not defensive medicine.

So if a doctor is confident that a patient doesn't have a condition, testing for it anyway won't protect him in any way, shape or form. And if the doctor was wrong in his confidence, then the lawsuit is justified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:12:28 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

Average award of malpractice lawsuits: $42,607.03. That number is from 2001, but hasn't changed significantly over the last decades.

Many states have capped awards at very low levels.

If a doctor does such shoddy work that his practice gets destroyed from a malpractice lawsuit, then that's the way it is intended to be.

Defensive medicine is a bogus claim. If a procedure isn't medically necessary, then there is no risk for a lawsuit, either.

If there is a problem with malpractice lawsuits, they should do what the American Society of Anesthesiologists did in the 1980s: analyze where the problems are, and find ways to eliminate medical errors. Today, their insurance rates are at 1985 levels. The University of Michigan did something similar in 2002, and their malpractice spending is down two thirds.

So the solution is not to do shoddy work, and you won't get sued.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Jury awards can be so massive though that they can destroy a practice, and so the resulting defensive medicine costs due to these awards dramatically drive up the price of health care. The damage to our health care system from ambulance chasing lawyers may be indirect, but its a problem just the same.
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
The lawsuits are a non-issue. Lawsuit awards are 0.58% of total health care expenditure (that number has remained unchanged well below 1% for the last 30 years, and there is no indication that it is increasing). If you add the total cost of lawsuits, you are still at around 1% of health care cost.

"Defensive medicine" is nonsense. Remember, you can't file a lawsuit unless somebody got harmed. Are they afraid that 85 year old woman will die during childbirth? If a hospital really did that testing, it was insurance fraud, not defensive medicine.

So if a doctor is confident that a patient doesn't have a condition, testing for it anyway won't protect him in any way, shape or form. And if the doctor was wrong in his confidence, then the lawsuit is justified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.





Another aspect that is being overlooked are the number of Drs who should not be in practice. Each state requires its own licensure. Many Drs hold liscenes in more than one state. Screw up in one, get complaints, lawsuits ect, skip to the next, clean slate... there.

The AMA needs to police their own more stringently. The ANA does, many others do. Drs tend to be allowed to "make mistakes".. sometimes small ones... sometimes major ones. National Licensure would go a long way in helping to prevent Drs from skipping across state lines after their screw-ups.

Its called the "practice of medicine" for a reason... there are no finite answers. However, when Drs make bad decisions... not mistakes... just bad, bad decisions... then people should be allowed to sue, and Drs should have to forfeit licenses.

Also, take this into consideration. We pay into SS. Yet, to gain disability, you have to hire a lawyer. A lawyer who takes 1/3 in many states of the settlement after years (sometimes) of fighting for what you are entitled too.

Personally,. i believe the whole system is rigged. Lawyers have managed to imbed themselves into our health care system in ways so many do not understand. Add to that the bean counters who base everything upon profit margin, and Joe Smith is pretty much screwed.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/25/2010 6:14:15 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 7:14:56 PM   
Brain


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Joined: 2/14/2007
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No,  that's at most 2% of the cost problem. The main problem is health insurance companies increasing rates in order to make ridiculous profits to meet Wall Street expectations.  Health insurance companies are scum sucking maggots and why you Defend them I will never understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


What is unbelievable is the way you so-called "progressives" applaud while all these scum sucking atourneys get unbelievably wealthy through bankrupting hard working physicians and driving everyone's health care costs up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I admire your bravado in the face of contrary fact, Sanity. It is what makes you so believable.


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 7:22:46 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline
These are the real scum suckers:

Health care in America continues to decline in the interest of supporting obscene profits and bonus for the very rich.
 
Top five health insurers posted 56 percent profit gains in 2009 | Raw Story
 
If no health care overhaul passes Congress, health insurers may be in for a windfall -- and one far larger that most Americans probably realize.
 
According to a study by a pro-health reform group published Thursday, the nation's largest five health insurance companies posted a 56 percent gain in 2009 profits over 2008. The insurers including Wellpoint, UnitedHealth, Cigna, Aetna and Humana, which cover the majority of Americans with insurance.
 
The insurers' hefty profit gains came even as 2.7 million more Americans lost their insurance coverage due to the declining economy.
 
"Insurers will - perversely - try and blame the economy for their record-breaking fortunes, saying employers have been shedding jobs and therefor dropping insurance coverage, leading to a decrease in customers," a press release for
 
Health Care for America Now said. "And they're certainly right in the sense that less jobs equals less employer-based health coverage, but that obscures the fact that employers have been steadily dropping health coverage for more employees for 15 years - even during good times - because the insurance industry's prices keep skyrocketing much faster than inflation."
 
"None of the excuses can explain away the basic reality that insurers make more money when they insure less people. They can pay their CEOs more ("administrative costs" rose this year) when they can charge the healthy exorbitant prices and drop or deny these loyal customers when they become sick and therefore expensive," the release added.

http://rawstory.com/2010/02/top-health-insurers-posted-57-percent-profit-gains-2009/


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


What is unbelievable is the way you so-called "progressives" applaud while all these scum sucking atourneys get unbelievably wealthy through bankrupting hard working physicians and driving everyone's health care costs up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I admire your bravado in the face of contrary fact, Sanity. It is what makes you so believable.


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/26/2010 5:55:12 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
Also interesting in this context is a statement from Wellpoint's CEO Angela Braly to a Congressional House Subcommittee, regarding the 40% premium increase in California. According to her, Aetna (owned by Wellpoint) had to raise the rates because younger healthier people are dropping their coverage in droves.

In other words, they have to raise their prices because priced themselves out of the market. Bizarre logic, although it can make sense in the bonus-crazed executive suites.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Health care in America continues to decline in the interest of supporting obscene profits and bonus for the very rich.
 
Top five health insurers posted 56 percent profit gains in 2009 | Raw Story



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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/26/2010 7:13:32 AM   
BeingChewsie


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That is only going to get worse here. In fact a huge chunk of mid-level providers PA's and NP's have started to specialize now too. It is about the money, I fully understand. When I went the advance practice route, I chose family psych as a speciality because there is a huge shortage of psychiatrists, PA's and NP's that work in psychiatry and even a smaller number that see children and adolescents. It is a cash cow and no need to even take insurance. I could see patients 7 days a week, 24 hours a day and still have a waiting list for an appointment that was months out. Most of my peers spend more time trying to refer patients to other providers than anything else because they are so jammed up. It is the same way in many other specialities. Why would anyone want to go into primary care with the reimbursements rates being what they are when you can specialize and make so much more and work less hours?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

We do have one problem in Ontario: a shortage of family practitioners.


We have the same problem here, especially in rural areas.

Everyone wants to specialize--it pays far, far better.


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/26/2010 8:04:41 AM   
masternoname


Posts: 164
Joined: 5/26/2008
Status: offline
Let me think about this for a minute

have surgery and recuperate in canada or have surgery and recuperate in florida

cold snow vs sunshine, beaches and women in bikinis

ya a real no brainer I think

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 97
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