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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:25:55 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Now compare our popularity world-wide ...


Compare the amount of gold medals we have won so far in the winter olympics


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:43:35 PM   
Sanity


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A few reasons are gun ownership, large smoggy cities, and violent crime rates. People who have excellent health care can still die at a fairly early age.

And, just a suggestion, but when doing mental exercises try a lot harder before giving up because the world really could use a few more conservatives.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Life expectancy and quality of health care are two completely different things. I bet if you tried really hard you could even come up with several reasons of why that is on your own.


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply... life expectancy is listed by country here, with our Canadian neighbors living living an average of 80.7 years...they come in at 11 worldwide...

In the US we come in at 38th with a lifespan of 78 years...

So I guess at the end of the day Canada kicks our ass in the only measure of health care that matters to me at the end of the day, where would I live longer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy




I can't, so why don't you enlighten everyone?

It would seem to me that higher quality health care would lead logically and naturally into a longer life expectancy.



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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:49:52 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Life expectancy and quality of health care are two completely different things. I bet if you tried really hard you could even come up with several reasons of why that is on your own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy



Well, Sanity, julia's right about life expectancy, of course, but if you'd rather not use such an obvious measure, then I'm happy to help, because there's plenty of other evidence.  Measuring quality of care by outcome has been going on for a long time, and guess what, Sanity? Americans, I'm sorry to say, are paying much more, and getting less.

Specific outcomes are better in Canada, as shown by a systematic review of studies published in the journal Open Medicine. To quote the CBC summary, "Overall, 14 of the 38 studies showed better outcomes in Canada, while five favoured the United States. The other 19 studies showed equivalent or mixed results in the two countries.

"What it shows is that despite an enormous investment in money, we do not see better health outcomes [in the U.S.]," one of the 17 authors, Dr. P.J. Devereaux, a cardiologist and clinical epidemiologist said."

Americans currently spend a little over $7,100 per individual on health care annually, and Canadians are spending a little over $2,900 per individual annually.

Interestingly, few of the 47 million uninsured patients in the United States, who probably suffer the worst quality care, were included in the studies examined.

Americans deserve better.

 
 


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:58:44 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Fast reply... we are behind many other countries with socialized medicine when it comes to infant mortality rates...

cia site
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

and then wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 4:58:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

We do have one problem in Ontario: a shortage of family practitioners.


We have the same problem here, especially in rural areas.

Everyone wants to specialize--it pays far, far better.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:03:25 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

In terms of choice shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want full on coverage, no coverage, or something in between


In terms of breathing air shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want a full lung of air or no air or something in between.
I am curious as to what sort of moron would choose to have partial health coverage if total health covrage was available for the same price?

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:10:16 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		From your cited study....

quote:

The only condition in which results consistently favoured one country was end-stage renal disease, in which Canadian patients fared better.
Oh and their interpretation of the results...

quote:


Available studies suggest that health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent.

BTW, thanks for the read.

The life expectancy chart is really interesting when compared to population size.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:11:57 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

In terms of choice shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want full on coverage, no coverage, or something in between


In terms of breathing air shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want a full lung of air or no air or something in between.
I am curious as to what sort of moron would choose to have partial health coverage if total health covrage was available for the same price?

Can you cite where health coverage is going to cost each citizen the same price?

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:19:22 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

In terms of choice shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want full on coverage, no coverage, or something in between


In terms of breathing air shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want a full lung of air or no air or something in between.
I am curious as to what sort of moron would choose to have partial health coverage if total health covrage was available for the same price?

Can you cite where health coverage is going to cost each citizen the same price?



The bill has not passed yet so it would be difficult unless we call in a mind reader.
In terms of single payer national healthcare do you think the taxes you would pay for this coverage would be greater than or less than what a for profit insurance company would charge for the same covreage?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:32:57 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

In terms of choice shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want full on coverage, no coverage, or something in between


In terms of breathing air shouldn't it be up to each individual whether or not they want a full lung of air or no air or something in between.
I am curious as to what sort of moron would choose to have partial health coverage if total health covrage was available for the same price?

Can you cite where health coverage is going to cost each citizen the same price?



The bill has not passed yet so it would be difficult unless we call in a mind reader.
In terms of single payer national healthcare do you think the taxes you would pay for this coverage would be greater than or less than what a for profit insurance company would charge for the same covreage?

That will completely depend on what tax bracket I am in next year... I can tell you that personally I prefer an HSA with a supplemental policy for major problems... If we go to a universal single payer system, I would guess that my taxes are going to go up more than I pay for my current coverage and hopefully service will not be changed for the worse (there is no guarantee that it is going to get better with an influx of 30 million new patients and the shortage of family practioners and nurses).

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:37:35 PM   
mcbride


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You win the cherry picker of the year award, Thad.  The results speak for themselves, and people can read.

As for "not consistent", hey, if you take solace in five of the 39 studies actually favouring US outcomes, compared to 14 for Canada, then good for you. Again...people can read.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 5:43:25 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride


You win the cherry picker of the year award, Thad.  The results speak for themselves, and people can read.

As for "not consistent", hey, if you take solace in five of the 39 studies actually favouring US outcomes, compared to 14 for Canada, then good for you. Again...people can read.

Even in the opening of their summary they claim that there is an unknown reason for the variance in the studies, as different studies showed that the majority of comparisons had mixed results (favoring Canada or the US). I am not knocking the study, as I said it was a good read. I think the variance is due to the dates used in the studies (ranging from '51 forward), the obvious variable missing in the equation is the invention of new treatments and medicines.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 6:05:07 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Even in the opening of their summary they claim that there is an unknown reason for the variance in the studies, as different studies showed that the majority of comparisons had mixed results (favoring Canada or the US). I am not knocking the study, as I said it was a good read. I think the variance is due to the dates used in the studies (ranging from '51 forward), the obvious variable missing in the equation is the invention of new treatments and medicines.


And why wouldn't they? That's the point of bringing together data: to find and present facts. There are lots of analyses of  why Canada does better, mostly having to do with the cost of profit and overhead.

I'm glad you asked about timing. There are a number of works that graph when outcomes began change.  In the 50s and 60s health outcomes were very similar. In 1971, Canada introduced Medicare, and three things happened. Your health costs began to grow, fairly dramatically, Canadian outcomes began to improve, and a marked difference developed in outcomes for low-income people.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 6:53:41 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Patients who have the financial resources for the best treatment available are going to whatever hospital, doctor, clinic, etc they choose.  That is not the case for most people with basic insurance or no insurance.

Patients routinely leave the U.S. for cheaper treatments and surgeries in other countries too, Mexico is one popular destination.


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 7:38:21 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Question.....

How many people in Canada have died, due to having no healthcare insurance.......?


An important comparison,considering over 40 thousand, good,hard working Americans die in the US every year,because they don`t have health coverage.

Square that for us,Archer.



Or don`t cons consider Americans without healthcare insurance,worthy of being counted?



In 1990,the Americans spent an average of about 28 hundred dollars a year for health care.A short 19 years later,he/she spent over eight grand a year.At this trajectory,by the time we reach 2018 it`ll be over $13,000 a year.This is not sustainable.There is a healthcare crisis, in spite of the willful ignorance of the right.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7692_02.pdf


The healthcare industry made over 4 billion in profits last year while tossing thousands of policy holders, for having the bad luck of getting sick.



How much more blood and treasure are we going to let these crooks gouge us for?

And why are conservatives,giving them aid and comfort?


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/24/2010 7:50:34 PM >

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:19:40 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
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Status: offline 		Coming from you, it surprises me that you list gun ownership (twice) as a leading cause for dying at an early age.

It is true (far more crimes turn into murders in the USA, although the overall crime rate is really not all that different), but is still really a drop in the bucket. Crime is actually a rarity in the USA (and in Canada) compared with natural causes of death. Think about it: about 2.5 million people die in the USA every year (from all causes including old age). We have a few tens of thousands of murders per year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
A few reasons are gun ownership, large smoggy cities, and violent crime rates. People who have excellent health care can still die at a fairly early age.



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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:26:43 AM   
tazzygirl


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Whats sad about all this is how people are afraid of lines because those who are currently uninsured and without medical care will be able to finally afford to see a Dr., freeing up ER space. reducing the number of sick days from work, adding to the general health and welfare of the communities they live in.

Its mindboggling how so many can look at others and only see themselves.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:29:58 AM   
cadenas


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Status: offline 		The lawsuits are a non-issue. Lawsuit awards are 0.58% of total health care expenditure (that number has remained unchanged well below 1% for the last 30 years, and there is no indication that it is increasing). If you add the total cost of lawsuits, you are still at around 1% of health care cost.

"Defensive medicine" is nonsense. Remember, you can't file a lawsuit unless somebody got harmed. Are they afraid that 85 year old woman will die during childbirth? If a hospital really did that testing, it was insurance fraud, not defensive medicine.

So if a doctor is confident that a patient doesn't have a condition, testing for it anyway won't protect him in any way, shape or form. And if the doctor was wrong in his confidence, then the lawsuit is justified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.



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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:43:52 AM   
Sanity


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Jury awards can be so massive though that they can destroy a practice, and so the resulting defensive medicine costs due to these awards dramatically drive up the price of health care. The damage to our health care system from ambulance chasing lawyers may be indirect, but its a problem just the same.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

The lawsuits are a non-issue. Lawsuit awards are 0.58% of total health care expenditure (that number has remained unchanged well below 1% for the last 30 years, and there is no indication that it is increasing). If you add the total cost of lawsuits, you are still at around 1% of health care cost.

"Defensive medicine" is nonsense. Remember, you can't file a lawsuit unless somebody got harmed. Are they afraid that 85 year old woman will die during childbirth? If a hospital really did that testing, it was insurance fraud, not defensive medicine.

So if a doctor is confident that a patient doesn't have a condition, testing for it anyway won't protect him in any way, shape or form. And if the doctor was wrong in his confidence, then the lawsuit is justified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Indeed, the skyrocketing costs of medical care in this country is related to the ungodly amount of lawsuits (many of which are frivolous). It is the reason malpractice insurance rates have been so damned high, and it forces hospitals and doctors to do everything to cover their own asses. Like giving 85 year old women pregnancy tests when they visit an ER. Hell, I understand the purpose of malpractice suits, and even support them in cases of malpractice. There just has to be some sort of way to protect innocent doctors and facilities from the insane costs associated with fighting these things.





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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/25/2010 6:47:41 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I admire your bravado in the face of contrary fact, Sanity. It is what makes you so believable.

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