RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai

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pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:32:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The thing- is I look at many points of view. Especially non-mainstream view. My life is pretty good- despite me ranting. It really is. I do not think you realize how much fear you try to stir up and how negative it seems when you have a dozen conspiracy threads going at any particular moment in time... you can't blame people for thinking that you might be one of those types that moves off to join a militia based upon the word of God My life is pretty good. There is no need for me to join any type of group. but then I live in an area which for the most part- people and govt mind their own business. - tho when they burn down Harrisburg- I am sure we will close the road down to prevent the mobs from coming north. good fences make good neighbors.

mnottertail -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:33:24 AM)
they will come and get your silver and gold, simon legree (or silas marner) as the case may be.

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:34:33 AM)
quote: My life is pretty good. There is no need for me to join any type of group. but then I live in an area which for the most part- people and govt mind their own business. - tho when they burn down Harrisburg- I am sure we will close the road down to prevent the mobs from coming north. good fences make good neighbors. I wish those fences could keep the smoke away too[:D] Unfortunately they can't....

pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:35:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania He is confusing religion with American citizenship... His problem is too much Alex Jones www.prisonplanet.com That site will rot an uninformed mind Just took a quick look at the site and no no no not something I am going back to. Started to read the piece about cancer treatments and got so mad had to shut it off. I used to read it on occasion just to be informed about what people were making of laws, etc, a few years ago... intellectual curiosity after talking to people who read it. I am convinced that sites like Prison Planet exist because they stir up fear. Anything that promotes fear is wrong. We were not intended to live in fear. There is a difference between informing yourself and empowering yourself, and filling yourself with garbage with no answer. Those folks that read that crap are completely disempowered, and that makes me mad because no one should live like that, in fear of everything. The only thing that they are told to do on sites like that is to "spread the word" and to "wake people up", in other words to spread fear.... I have no use for it... I always say, "fine, you have shown me the problem, now lets come up with solutions together, or just shut the fuck up"... and by solutions I do not mean roaming the countryside searching for FEMA (concentration) camps. I agree that there needs to be more solutions. Normal channels to that- tho are void- throw in the lawyer loblliests. the system is broke- there is no rule of law. particularly in the past 10 years.

mnottertail -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:36:57 AM)
lobelia is spelt with one l. I am surprised you knew that herb has been used for smoking cessation treatment at all........ Oh, never mind, you were on about some other crap. Ron

pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:37:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail they will come and get your silver and gold, simon legree (or silas marner) as the case may be. are they looting in Chile right now? I am pretty sure I can find some lead to block any insurgents. would I do that? we shall see.....

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:38:30 AM)
quote: I agree that there needs to be more solutions. Normal channels to that- tho are void- throw in the lawyer loblliests. the system is broke- there is no rule of law. particularly in the past 10 years. I look at what organizations like the ACLU do, and Citizens for the American Way... and I just have to disagree with you... there are people with solutions, but they are demonized... they work through the law to get justice...They find solutions...

pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:38:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: My life is pretty good. There is no need for me to join any type of group. but then I live in an area which for the most part- people and govt mind their own business. - tho when they burn down Harrisburg- I am sure we will close the road down to prevent the mobs from coming north. good fences make good neighbors. I wish those fences could keep the smoke away too[:D] Unfortunately they can't.... I really do hate smoke. I also hate the neighbors barking dogs.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:40:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I believe that people will not learn how to respect one another's private space through "nanny laws" that attempt to compel good manners. I also think that, if someone doesn't want to smell cigarette smoke when they're out in public, they're welcome to choose their venues accordingly, as long as, if -I- want to have a cigarette while I'm out in public, I have the option of having a place where =I= can do so as well. The anti smoking laws have been extremely successful in this state in regulating clean air in public buildings.. which I am forever grateful for. I suppose you are for "separate yet equal" even though when people are allowed to smoke indoors legally, in my experience establishments try to create smoking and nonsmoking "areas", which do not translate to clean air... so basically you want to tread on people's goodwill toward one another, and it only takes a few assholes to spoil that. Actually, Julia, no... what I would prefer is for the COMPANY to tell me that I can't smoke in the building, or for the restaurant owner to tell me that I can't smoke in hir restaurant/pub/club/whatever... What I -resent-, and I resent it with every inch of my being, is the whole idea that we need 'nanny laws', either at a state or federal level, to enforce what should be able to be handled on an individual establishment level--or heck, if we had any -manners- left, which could be handled by getting up and going over to Mr. Smoker (or having one's Keeper/Lover/Whatever do so if one wasn't inclined to do so oneself) and saying "Gee, Mr... would you mind putting out your cigarette right now, since it's making it difficult for me to breathe." Heck, I -still- have to have conversations like that with the women who sit down next to me doused in a full bottle of Red Door or Chanel and the men who think wearing 5 different products full of Axe really -does- make them sexy (PS: it doesn't). Obviously, the non-smoking contingent has a lot to say -- so instead of cramming their philosophies down everyone's throats, why not just get out there and convince the restauranteurs, club owners, and employers that y'all need smoke-free space. Frankly, most companies had already begun restricting smoking indoors at work YEARS before these laws came into being. A little bit of patience and persistence could have avoided the whole issue of restriction of personal rights by the government... but... oh, wait, you've said yourself here: quote: Actually I think that the taxes levied on smokers are unjust, which is why eliminating ciggies is the best alternative to taxing people for smoking... that what you -really- want is to make cigarettes illegal for everyone... so I guess the voluntary smoke-free thing wouldn't really get you to your base goal...

pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:41:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I agree that there needs to be more solutions. Normal channels to that- tho are void- throw in the lawyer loblliests. the system is broke- there is no rule of law. particularly in the past 10 years. I look at what organizations like the ACLU do, and Citizens for the American Way... and I just have to disagree with you... there are people with solutions, but they are demonized... they work through the law to get justice...They find solutions... if anyone rocks the boat of the bankers status quo- where ever the power grid is- who ever makes noise - in a way which takes money from- or fails to send money to the power group- then that whole thing is discounted. So yes- what you say is true.

thishereboi -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:47:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: If someone has a problem with smoke, then maybe they shouldn't get a job where people smoke. I think it should be up to the owner of the bar or restaurant. If they want smoking then they have to deal with the fact that some people might go elsewhere because of it. If they want it non-smoking, same thing. So working stiffs now have to work around unnecessary environmental pollution or be unemployed. What a choice! All those people who do not smoke must put up with it for 8 hours a day because other people are selfish pricks,.... gotcha! I mean it isn't like they can't get a table outdoors and smoke, or can't wait until they leave the mall to smoke, etc... Like I said.. I love California... and for the smoking ban alone it is lovely to live here. Well everyone keeps telling me that the majority of the people want non-smoking establishments, so it stands to reason that the majority of the restaurants and bars would be non-smoking. The individual would have the choice of where they work.

thishereboi -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:49:39 AM)
quote: I didn't mention the right at all: Sorry, I must have read this wrong... quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I'm a bit surprised that so little has been said about tobacco taxes in this thread. Given that most of the "How dare you evil liberals try to stop me from smoking in public!" stuff is coming from people who lean to the right (I get the impression that Termy's a libertarian, to pick one example, and apologise if I have that wrong), I'd have thought they'd be a lot more annoyed about the taxes they're paying for their fags.

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:12:00 PM)
quote: Actually, Julia, no... what I would prefer is for the COMPANY to tell me that I can't smoke in the building, or for the restaurant owner to tell me that I can't smoke in hir restaurant/pub/club/whatever... What I -resent-, and I resent it with every inch of my being, is the whole idea that we need 'nanny laws', either at a state or federal level, to enforce what should be able to be handled on an individual establishment level--or heck, if we had any -manners- left, which could be handled by getting up and going over to Mr. Smoker (or having one's Keeper/Lover/Whatever do so if one wasn't inclined to do so oneself) and saying "Gee, Mr... would you mind putting out your cigarette right now, since it's making it difficult for me to breathe." Heck, I -still- have to have conversations like that with the women who sit down next to me doused in a full bottle of Red Door or Chanel and the men who think wearing 5 different products full of Axe really -does- make them sexy (PS: it doesn't). Well, the employees should be able to sue employers for creating an unhealthful work environment and get financial damages, and I doubt you would agree with that, though, either... quote: Obviously, the non-smoking contingent has a lot to say -- so instead of cramming their philosophies down everyone's throats, why not just get out there and convince the restauranteurs, club owners, and employers that y'all need smoke-free space. Frankly, most companies had already begun restricting smoking indoors at work YEARS before these laws came into being. A little bit of patience and persistence could have avoided the whole issue of restriction of personal rights by the government... but... oh, wait, you've said yourself here: These laws started in California... in fact California decided that it was wrong to force employees of restaurants and bars to put up with second hand smoke and created an unhealthy environment...which is why it was outlawed in all bars... now, like I said, you want to open the flood gates on law suits from employees that get respiratory illnesses, lung cancer, etc so that they can get medical taken care of and paid time off work, fine... I bet that would effectively change things around the country for everyone

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: If someone has a problem with smoke, then maybe they shouldn't get a job where people smoke. I think it should be up to the owner of the bar or restaurant. If they want smoking then they have to deal with the fact that some people might go elsewhere because of it. If they want it non-smoking, same thing. So working stiffs now have to work around unnecessary environmental pollution or be unemployed. What a choice! All those people who do not smoke must put up with it for 8 hours a day because other people are selfish pricks,.... gotcha! I mean it isn't like they can't get a table outdoors and smoke, or can't wait until they leave the mall to smoke, etc... Like I said.. I love California... and for the smoking ban alone it is lovely to live here. Well everyone keeps telling me that the majority of the people want non-smoking establishments, so it stands to reason that the majority of the restaurants and bars would be non-smoking. The individual would have the choice of where they work. Does the individual have a choice of where to work? One is lucky to get any sort of job right now

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:25:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Does the individual have a choice of where to work? One is lucky to get any sort of job right now Again, not quite accurate here (though it may be in California). Service-sector jobs (including wait-staff in many of our high-end restaurants) are going -begging-. Jobs in the housing market, construction, and manufacturing are down, but jobs in the service industries are actually holding their own or are growing markets.

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:39:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Does the individual have a choice of where to work? One is lucky to get any sort of job right now Again, not quite accurate here (though it may be in California). Service-sector jobs (including wait-staff in many of our high-end restaurants) are going -begging-. Jobs in the housing market, construction, and manufacturing are down, but jobs in the service industries are actually holding their own or are growing markets. The restaurant jobs are where the smoke is, I am talking about jobs without smoke You never answered my question... do employers pay higher workman's comp fees? Do they want to pay for it when their employees are out for second hand smoke related ailments?

thishereboi -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Does the individual have a choice of where to work? One is lucky to get any sort of job right now Again, not quite accurate here (though it may be in California). Service-sector jobs (including wait-staff in many of our high-end restaurants) are going -begging-. Jobs in the housing market, construction, and manufacturing are down, but jobs in the service industries are actually holding their own or are growing markets. That sound about right for this area.

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 1:44:42 PM)
Again we come back to the duty on the landlord to provide safe working conditions and use safe working practices. If it is unacceptable to oblige the use of respiratory protective equipment, then the smoking must stop. Similarly though, if it is unacceptable for bar staff to wear riot gear in order to protect themselves from intoxicated, violent customers, the drinking must also stop. Otherwise, the smoking ban is a matter of public opinion rather than health and safety at work, with here a variation in the understanding of the nature of the risks according to wider public support for getting pissed as a rat. E

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 1:49:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Again we come back to the duty on the landlord to provide safe working conditions and use safe working practices. If it is unacceptable to oblige the use of respiratory protective equipment, then the smoking must stop. Similarly though, if it is unacceptable for bar staff to wear riot gear in order to protect themselves from intoxicated, violent customers, the drinking must also stop. Otherwise, the smoking ban is a matter of public opinion rather than health and safety at work, with here a variation in the understanding of the nature of the risks according to wider public support for getting pissed as a rat. E If you can show that there is a pattern of behavior in which patrons assault employees, I agree. In the USA when we have a really busy establishment there is security present to eject drunks safely... these people could even wear riot gear if they wanted to[:D].. Basically it is just creating another job, having bouncers.... unfortunately there is no one that can clean the air, and air purifiers do not work, as I found out when I went to Las Vegas and came back with an infection in my ears that took a month to get over Edited to add, I am positive that our workman's compensation here in the states would pay for time off work from a work related assault also... If you are injured at work you get lost wages and medical care for that injury

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:11:33 PM)
Damages are an insufficient remedy, let alone any form of effective preventative measure, to criminal or tortious behaviours, and furthermore no reason whatsoever to justify exposing employees to dangerous or unhealthy working conditions or practices. Neither is it the case that an employer may unreasonably allow for one known instance of dangerous or unhealthy working conditions or practices to go unresolved whilst resolving another such known instance. If workers in any other sector of the economy were exposed to the kind of injuries sustained by British bar staff as a result of their work with the intoxicated, then there should be an enquiry by the Health & Safety Executive and the imposition of safer working conditions and practices on the sector to obviate or limit the exposure to such risks, likely including the use of riot gear. Let us then not pretend that the smoking ban is anything much to do with the health and safety of bar staff - that aspect is rather a convenient side effect. Let us accept instead that it is public policy aimed at reducing exposure to second hand smoke and deterring smoking in general. E

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