RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai

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Moonhead -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:15:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Again we come back to the duty on the landlord to provide safe working conditions and use safe working practices. If it is unacceptable to oblige the use of respiratory protective equipment, then the smoking must stop. Similarly though, if it is unacceptable for bar staff to wear riot gear in order to protect themselves from intoxicated, violent customers, the drinking must also stop. Otherwise, the smoking ban is a matter of public opinion rather than health and safety at work, with here a variation in the understanding of the nature of the risks according to wider public support for getting pissed as a rat. E They can stop serving customers and tell them to piss off if they're getting pissed as a rat, though.

Moonhead -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:19:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail they will come and get your silver and gold, simon legree (or silas marner) as the case may be. Solomon Grundy?

mnottertail -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:21:15 PM)
Well, hes sort of an Elanor Rigby, thruth be told, more than say an Uriah Heep.

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:24:49 PM)
Indeed MH - but then a refusal to serve is one of the principle causes of violent assault on staff. E

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:31:54 PM)
quote: If workers in any other sector of the economy were exposed to the kind of injuries sustained by British bar staff as a result of their work with the intoxicated, then there should be an enquiry by the Health & Safety Executive and the imposition of safer working conditions and practices on the sector to obviate or limit the exposure to such risks, likely including the use of riot gear. Let us then not pretend that the smoking ban is anything much to do with the health and safety of bar staff - that aspect is rather a convenient side effect. Let us accept instead that it is public policy aimed at reducing exposure to second hand smoke and deterring smoking in general. E I have worked in bars in the USA, putting up with bar fights and being injured in them isn't a great worry amongst many bar staff in the USA, when it becomes a threat there are bouncers hired. There are state laws here against serving people if they are visibly intoxicated... in fact employees can be implicated criminally for serving someone until they are intoxicated and then they kill someone as a result of that... so perhaps we just have a better handle on these problems..Apples and oranges I suppose... Perhaps you should work on getting safer bars there?

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:38:57 PM)
We have all the laws in the world Julia - the exact same liability applies if one serves someone already drunk. The difference is that here, if you wished to apply the laws as they stand you would need double the number of police, police stations and prison places, because I'm sorry to say that the state of things here is one where manners are an unknown phenomenon to many, occasioning what is called "anti-social behaviour" on a rampant scale, including widespread violence arising from intoxication when someone or other objects to it. E

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:45:13 PM)
I have to say, there are people who stagger around drunk everywhere, but it does not sound anything like where you live... I live in Downtown where there are so many clubs it would make your head spin, and there is a heavy police presence that squashes that sort of behavior... although on busy weekends they still get out of hand. I do not hear it because I live in a high rise. I am leaving and staying with Sinergy during Grand Prix weekend though... trying to figure out a way to charge premium rent on my apartment that weekend ( I could get 500 a night easy if I could keep it from my landlord!) http://www.gplb.com/

Aneirin -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:50:44 PM)
From experience the only violent trouble I have ever encountered in a bar, is in the towns, never in the local pubs, sure there has been a bit of drunken fisty cuffs now and again, but it is quickly sorted out and the offenders barred. Being Barred from one pub around here for violence often means one is barred from every pub in the area, and that hurts, for one will have to then take a 9 mile trip into town for a beer. I wondered why towns seem to be largely the preserve of the drunken fighters, and came to the conclusion that bars, and at night there are loads of them seem to reject their responsibility and keep serving booze to all that demand it, money is the motivator. Also with the towns being usually the centre of any out lying areas, those from out lying areas descend on the town for a serious drinking session, where trouble always seem to flare, here we got the swilly lot grinding against those from more affluent areas. Swilly, is the area of town where often the undesirables are put,or seem to migrate to, they are a breed apart. My solution to town violence, close down the bars and let those that live in the town, live in peace. Bouncers, aka rent a thug.

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 2:55:45 PM)
Yep, its the same even in small market towns here - changes in the licensing and planning laws have seen town centres crowded out with night clubs and rowdy pubs for youngsters unable to handle wine gums let alone the enormous volumes of alcohol they consume. And the police are there in force every night - and yet there is still trouble, because accompanying the general deterioration in manners towards others, any regard for the police and justice system has eroded similarly. Whereas in years past there might be an odd fist fight the police could deal with, nowadays its akin to a riot involving multiple combatants armed with whatever they can find, if they didnt come out armed. Its a social and cultural problem we have here, not a problem with drinking or smoking, and one which concerns primarily the under 30s. If you go to a proper pub you dont find these problems, even though there is drunkenness. Proper pubs however are an endangered species. E

Aneirin -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 3:07:32 PM)
It seems it is all about greed, I mean, what was the real reason for Blair ridding the drinking hours, stimulate a civil wine sipping french culture, or increase the revenue from the taxation on alcohol. Well, the idea that Britons were going to act like french was dead in the water from the start, we are not french, we are Britons with a long history and taste for beer and yeah, fighting, we are, were a fighting nation. But now, it is a free for all out there in the towns, the idea of selling as much alcohol as possible is the order of the day, so it could be said money is the motivation and the crime, the result, perhaps cut the availability of copious amounts of alcohol and there we might see a drop in the level of violence. Maybe the increased tax on ale and pubs is another way of saying we are making shit loads of cash from the towns, but very little from the villages, hey, I know, tax 'em hard to make up the short fall.

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 3:15:43 PM)
The problem though A is that those who cause the trouble do not get drunk in the town centre pubs and clubs but at home on cheap supermarket booze before venturing out. What they consume before going out is more than what I at their age would consume all night on a bender, but then maybe I'm not up to it. The result is that the problems are pre-programmed into a night out, because the patrons are already drunk and the pubs and clubs have to sell a certain amount of booze in order to make money. Any solution on the booze side must therefore start with the supermarkets and their heavy discounting of booze - which is one of the key factors afflicting the proper pubs too. But ultimately we have to examine the psychological, social, economic and cultural factors that play into this idea that drinking to excess is somehow cool, that good manners are foolish and that a good night out cannot be had unless one gets so drunk one can hardly remember it. E

Aneirin -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 3:43:37 PM)
Alcohol is part of our culture, it has been so for many centuries, in fact at one time watered down beer was consumed in lieu of water, because water was not considered safe to drink due to it being used as a sewer prior to underground sewerage systems. I do not wish to see the end of the traditional British pint served in the traditional British pub, it is an institution and part of our heritage. But as regards supermarkets and the late night mini markets and their cheap paint stripper booze, white lightning, barnstormer, thunderbird, 20/20 and special deals on wife beater, stop it, I will be glad to see the back of that, and the little fuck with stanley knife in one hand and the blue plastic bottle of cheap but potent booze I disarmed the other night, for it is these mini marts that are allowing the under age element to get out of control. Me and my pals at that age, it was what we could purloin from our parents home brew, or brewed ourselves, quite often a vaguely alcoholic vinegar, the likes of the stomach now turns at the memory. It is true we have a malignant problem in society and booze is an important element in that, but if cheap booze was banned in supermarkets, I wonder what Lord Sainsbury and Mr Tesco will have to say about that to their politician buddies.

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 4:14:54 PM)
Exactly A - in other words, the booze lobby in one shape or another will never allow for the steps to be taken to resolve the problem, and those able to steer and make policy and legislation hardly have to face the problem do they? I wonder where the Head Of Tourism for Manchester is tonight? Maybe detained on the mean streets of Altrincham? E

Aneirin -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 4:23:34 PM)
Perhaps someone should bring the problem home to them, get somone to organise a booze fuelled rave at Mr Tesco or Lord Sainsbury's home and have the party goers leave emply bottles of the relevant supermarket cheap booze about their garden. The news reports would be very funny.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 5:06:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania The restaurant jobs are where the smoke is, I am talking about jobs without smoke You never answered my question... do employers pay higher workman's comp fees? Do they want to pay for it when their employees are out for second hand smoke related ailments? All of our bars, restaurants, clubs, and public venues, inside and outside seating both, are smoke-free, so I can't speak to that part, but I do know that the clubs here do pay higher workman's comp insurance to offset the increased level of violence in two of our counties.

juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:02:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania The restaurant jobs are where the smoke is, I am talking about jobs without smoke You never answered my question... do employers pay higher workman's comp fees? Do they want to pay for it when their employees are out for second hand smoke related ailments? All of our bars, restaurants, clubs, and public venues, inside and outside seating both, are smoke-free, so I can't speak to that part, but I do know that the clubs here do pay higher workman's comp insurance to offset the increased level of violence in two of our counties. As I see it, if restaurants had to pay higher insurance for tobacco exposed employees they might stop the smoking indoors... it is necessary to have booze in bars, it is not necessary to allow smoking in them

mcbride -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 11:31:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride All of the fake "citizens" groups that spring up to fight "stripping freedom" are not only funded by tobacco companies, but are organized by those companies. There's lots and lots of documentation on this. Bull motherfucking shit. I fund them to the tune of about more than some people make a year. And I will do so as long as I please. If you get an invitation to the 2010 smokeoff at Termy's Terminal, just wipe your ass with it OK ? T Oh, nicely argued. I'm sorry if it makes you hostile.

pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/2/2010 7:24:59 AM)
since when are pub owners rich? what a stretch. LOL. try the elite 1%.

LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/2/2010 8:16:26 AM)
The part I dont understand is why the fine wasnt recovered by way of enforcement proceedings - that it wasnt suggests the guy didnt have the assets to cover it. But even those on the dole pay their fines - its deducted from their welfare payments and made up in the form of another welfare payment apparently, which is why perhaps a fine is neither deterrent or punishment for those at the bottom. E

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