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Termyn8or -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dailyma (2/28/2010 10:37:32 PM)

"Part of the motivation for me to quit was I got tired of paying such heavy taxes to kill myself"

That is highly subjective. You have to be objective to see the big picture. You have the right to fart, and I won't like it especially if you have been eating pickled eggs and beans, and drinking cream ale. You are emitting shit into the air, which may contain ebola for all we know.

So stay out of our smoking section if you please.

T




mcbride -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:00:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
If there are enough customers in that venue to support a smoke-free environment, then the place will probably go smoke-free, without legislation--as a force of the market.

Legislation on things like this are nothing more than enforcing one's own choices or moral code on someone else -- and to -me- that kind of stripping freedom in the interest of conformity is a crime.


Alas, the force of the market is skewed by tobacco companies who spend hundreds of millions to persuade restauranteurs and bar owners to resist any restrictions. All of the fake "citizens" groups that spring up to fight "stripping freedom" are not only funded by tobacco companies, but are organized by those companies. There's lots and lots of documentation on this. Those companies also use addiction to influence old Mr Smith's "invisible hand".

So it's not as if "the force of the market" is on that side of the argument.  

And speaking of customers supporting a smoke-free environment: Interestingly, no independent study has ever found that a smoking ban has caused a negative economic impact for bars and restaurants in any jurisdiction.  What those tobacco companies do, again, under the guise of a fake "citizens group",  is pay for surveys that ask if owners think it will hurt them. If a majority of owners says yes, the "study" is published.

Bleh.




Termyn8or -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 12:22:16 AM)

"are not only funded by tobacco companies, but are organized by those companies"

Bull motherfucking shit.

I fund them to the tune of about more than some people make a year. And I will do so as long as I please. If you get an invitation to the 2010 smokeoff at Termy's Terminal, just wipe your ass with it OK ?

T




Moonhead -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 5:43:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I took care of a man that was incapacitated from his habit, he had COPD, brain damage, asthma, and emphysema... he was blind and wheelchair bound... that was enough motivation to get me to quit alone, but the taxes on it, well that was a close second.

I'm a bit surprised that so little has been said about tobacco taxes in this thread. Given that most of the "How dare you evil liberals try to stop me from smoking in public!" stuff is coming from people who lean to the right (I get the impression that Termy's a libertarian, to pick one example, and apologise if I have that wrong), I'd have thought they'd be a lot more annoyed about the taxes they're paying for their fags.




thishereboi -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 6:11:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Fair enough, but can you get your head around the counter argument that it might be nice for non smokers to have somewhere they can go for a drink in February?


You know, before the legislation, there were half a dozen restaurants and clubs in our neighborhood alone that were smoke-free (admittedly, I live in a large city), without any legislation requiring it. There was at least one Country-Western club, and one dance club that I know of because I spent time in them, and two family restaurants and a health-food restaurant, and a Continental restaurant that were also 100% smoke-free.

My thing is, even in a small town or city, if people want a smoke-free establishment, work with the management of the club. If there are enough customers in that venue to support a smoke-free environment, then the place will probably go smoke-free, without legislation--as a force of the market.

Legislation on things like this are nothing more than enforcing one's own choices or moral code on someone else -- and to -me- that kind of stripping freedom in the interest of conformity is a crime.



In California there were very few restaurants to none in most places that had banned tobacco products. Most had "smoking" sections, but smoke has a way of not respecting lines on the floor,

In Las Vegas they had one nonsmoking casino in the early 1990s it went back to smoking because casinos pander to the smokers...

There is also the problem of employees who have to work in these establishments, which is why California banned smoking as a working health hazard... one cannot expose employees to second hand cigarette smoke and harm them... and I see this as completely rational.



If someone has a problem with smoke, then maybe they shouldn't get a job where people smoke. I think it should be up to the owner of the bar or restaurant. If they want smoking then they have to deal with the fact that some people might go elsewhere because of it. If they want it non-smoking, same thing.




thishereboi -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 6:25:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I took care of a man that was incapacitated from his habit, he had COPD, brain damage, asthma, and emphysema... he was blind and wheelchair bound... that was enough motivation to get me to quit alone, but the taxes on it, well that was a close second.

I'm a bit surprised that so little has been said about tobacco taxes in this thread. Given that most of the "How dare you evil liberals try to stop me from smoking in public!" stuff is coming from people who lean to the right (I get the impression that Termy's a libertarian, to pick one example, and apologise if I have that wrong), I'd have thought they'd be a lot more annoyed about the taxes they're paying for their fags.


Well maybe, just maybe, not everyone has to drag the right-vs-left bullshit into every subject. Personally I think your attitude of us against them is going to tear apart the country. As much as it might hurt you to believe this. Not everyone on the right is an ignorant, evil racist and not everyone on the left is a tree hugging, baby killing socialist. There are assholes on both sides and good people on both sides. Until you and many others understand that and quit trying to paint the other guy as evil, you will gain nothing.




juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 6:38:08 AM)

quote:

If someone has a problem with smoke, then maybe they shouldn't get a job where people smoke. I think it should be up to the owner of the bar or restaurant. If they want smoking then they have to deal with the fact that some people might go elsewhere because of it. If they want it non-smoking, same thing.



So working stiffs now have to work around unnecessary environmental pollution or be unemployed. What a choice! All those people who do not smoke must put up with it for 8 hours a day because other people are selfish pricks,.... gotcha! I mean it isn't like they can't get a table outdoors and smoke, or can't wait until they leave the mall to smoke, etc...


Like I said.. I love California... and for the smoking ban alone it is lovely to live here.




Moonhead -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 6:49:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Well maybe, just maybe, not everyone has to drag the right-vs-left bullshit into every subject. Personally I think your attitude of us against them is going to tear apart the country. As much as it might hurt you to believe this. Not everyone on the right is an ignorant, evil racist and not everyone on the left is a tree hugging, baby killing socialist. There are assholes on both sides and good people on both sides. Until you and many others understand that and quit trying to paint the other guy as evil, you will gain nothing.


When did I say that they were? I always rather liked Ted Heath, and Nixon was one of the best Presidents you people have had since the war.
I didn't mention the right at all: I was just surprised that the libertarians who've posted in this thread had passed up a chance to whine about taxes. That struck me as a bit out of character, so I mentioned it.
I'm not the one who's stereotyping along ideological lines here, you are. And just so you know: I don't live in your country and I find the fact that you have all of this sectarian bullshit about a couple of political parties you need a speculum to tell apart hilarious. Even most of the right wing over here (apart from the real nutcases like Veritas or the BNP) is a bit to the left of people like Obama or Leiberman.




juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:00:22 AM)

quote:

I didn't mention the right at all: I was just surprised that the libertarians who've posted in this thread had passed up a chance to whine about taxes. That struck me as a bit out of character, so I mentioned it.
I'm not the one who's stereotyping along ideological lines here, you are. And just so you know: I don't live in your country and I find the fact that you have all of this sectarian bullshit about a couple of political parties you need a speculum to tell apart hilarious. Even most of the right wing over here (apart from the real nutcases like Veritas or the BNP) is a bit to the left of people like Obama or Leiberman.


The funniest thing about thishereboi's accusation is that I was the person that brought up the fact that cigarette taxes were unfair, and yet I am against smoking in public and I have no problem with taxing people fairly... even considered a liberal...how funny it is to get bent out of shape that others who are against unfair taxation are not also speaking out.







LadyEllen -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:19:36 AM)

This health and safety argument for staff is unfortunately not the trump card; there are after all many occupations which deal in hazardous airborne substances for which a mask must be worn. If I wish to cut concrete slabs for my customer's backyard then I wear a protective mask - I do not have the cutting of concrete slabs banned nor insist on my customer taking his slabs home to cut them himself (along with his hand from his wrist perhaps). There is no reason, should smoky workplaces be thought to be as hazardous as some other hazardous workplaces, why staff ought not to be provided with protective equipment.

The smoking ban was ill thought through. It has not stopped anyone smoking on a night out and it has not stopped many of those who do not smoke from being affected by smoke. All it required was for venues that wished to allow smoking to provide an area for it which was separated from the rest of the establishment, rather as with the smoking rooms of old. That many, perhaps most in my experience, venues have had to provide a separate smoking area following the introduction of the legislation in order to cater to their customers, shows that such a halfway house solution could easily have been made and more readily and universally accepted. That when one ventures into these separate facilities one finds not merely smokers but also the smokers' non-smoking friends there, shows that many of those believed to have been protected have not been for they will insist on accompanying their smoking friends - something I have observed in many instances of business meetings, let alone leisure facilities.

As for alcohol, this is a far more dangerous and damaging substance second hand. There are of course the risks of drunk driving, but more than this there is the catalogue of problems here in the UK caused by public intoxication, including random violence to bar staff, other drinkers, the general public, police, ambulance and hospital staff, and random criminal damage to property and general public nuisance. Whilst a smoker may generate problems for others near him with his smoke, should he be so inconsiderate, once his cigarette has been extinguished (five - ten minutes) his anti-social behaviour is ended - since intoxication lasts for several hours, so too do the risks to others arising from intoxication endure.

Indeed, it is this very nature of alcohol and its after effects that led in the first place to such notions as licensing for public venues where it should be available - that is to say separate venues established under law where this dangerous activity ought to be confined so that the dangers to others could be minimised, and separate public order offences where intoxication became an element of the offence - that is to say the offence had a special nature of risking or causing public nuisance due to alcohol having been consumed, not to mention such notions as a landlord being criminally liable for serving children or those already sufficiently intoxicated that they might fall foul of the specially created public order offences.

The general point then is that society and the law has already long since accepted that alcohol is a substance that generates wider criminal problems to others who do not partake. That society and the law is coming more round to the idea that alcohol is a substance that is generating wider health and safety problems to the drinkers and to the wider society will see new legislation before long to control and limit these factors also.

But we must first consider those bar staff who may risk violent assault from serving drinkers, whom we know already are prone to such criminality. The law is very simple - as an employer the landlord must take all reasonable steps to protect his employees, and this must extend to the known risks of assault by drunken customers - bar staff ought as a minimum to be provided with helmets, and perhaps face guards to prevent injury from thrown glassware, gloves and a stab vest.

A landlord failing to provide such protective equipment or failing to ensure his staff wear it at all times, is guilty of causing or permitting unsafe working practices. If it is essential to protect bar staff from the effects of second smoke then there is no reason to suppose that it is not equally essential to protect them from the known effects of second hand intoxication.

Which leaves us as it would appear only two avenues to go down - one to ban the consumption of alcohol anywhere but in the home and the other to permit public drinking venues as now but to insist on the appropriate measures being taken to protect employees at work. If we choose the fomer then it will be criticised rightly as a gross infringement on the majority of considerate drinkers' rights for the sake of controlling a small but sizeable problem drinker population. If we choose the latter then we can have no excuse in not permitting smoking in public venues since the principle has been established that landlords must provide safety equipment and safe working practices in relation to other known risks.

Ultimately however all of this is down to two main influences - the first the trend towards open plan venues and the second, and rather paradoxically perhaps, the trend towards tolerance of others' varying customs - which must lead some to believe that manners no longer matter since they may be, even must be, interpreted so widely as to have become redundant as a system of controlling social behaviour, with the result that "I shall do as I like, and you'd better accept it" displacing ordinary self control and consideration of others, and leading to a situation where governments feel that legislation must be introduced in order to replace what common manners might previously have provided.

E




Moonhead -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:20:39 AM)

Well, yeah. As I said, I was surprised that nobody else had picked up on that one.




pahunkboy -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:21:19 AM)

Julia-  a number of people are leaving CA.   CA is one of 4 states that a faction in Mexico wants back.

The issue is not the smoking- it is that a centralized power is dictating law to the point that some bloke in UK rots in jail for 6 months.

The govt should not legislate  common sense.

Much of what we see today is for 30 years from now.  Look at the youth with no manners and no civility.   For the most part the grid leaves us old farts like me alone.

This is the result of taken god out of life.   People have no manners to eachother- so then the state must mandate- but this then makes the state into god.    The know all -be all- is now the state.




juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:40:46 AM)

quote:

Julia- a number of people are leaving CA. CA is one of 4 states that a faction in Mexico wants back.


Um... they have wanted it back forever... they ain't getting it back.

As far as people leaving? I wish that were true, but our population growth has exceeded the rest of the nation since we became a state... people always more moving in than moving out...and a large number of them come from the rest of the USA... not foriegn countries and not by natural population increase...

Less people sounds great to me! We have more than enough already. Our water resources would love for about 5 million to leave at least.

quote:

The issue is not the smoking- it is that a centralized power is dictating law to the point that some bloke in UK rots in jail for 6 months.


If someone insists on disobeying the public health laws and will not comply you have a few choices of what to do with him, fine him, close him down, or jail him. In California if you do not pay a parking ticket, eventually they will jail you for that. There has to be some sort of penalty for not obeying laws. If you are intentionally flouting health laws, well yeah, you will eventually be locked up. The issue is someone intentionally giving the finger to public health. He is daring the powers that be by flouting the public health... he deserves what he is getting, he invited it.


quote:

The govt should not legislate  common sense.


it is common sense that people not drink and drive, murder people, or steal from their neighbor... of course the govt legislates common sense... that is the silliest thing I have yet read on this thread.


quote:

Much of what we see today is for 30 years from now.  Look at the youth with no manners and no civility.   For the most part the grid leaves us old farts like me alone.


What are you talking about?


quote:

This is the result of taken god out of life.   People have no manners to eachother- so then the state must mandate- but this then makes the state into god.    The know all -be all- is now the state.


OMG, you swallowed every bit of nonsense that Alex Jones has dished out...

I will take my freedom of religion, thank you very much, and you can keep your god to yourself.





mnottertail -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:43:56 AM)

What the fuck? Are you there to puff cigarettes or get fucking drunk?

Priorities and clear goals, people.





juliaoceania -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:46:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

What the fuck? Are you there to puff cigarettes or get fucking drunk?

Priorities and clear goals, people.




Get fucking drunk of course... geesh, this isn't rocket science[:D]




mnottertail -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:48:49 AM)

Ja, we can step outside and puff our little filthies, betwixt pints o Guinness.

I just see it as a refocusing on core business.




mnottertail -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 7:53:12 AM)

'ear nooooooo; I see owt ta dooo wi amblin in the tabaccanist fer a wee pint o it as I doo waltzin in and askin the guvner too gi us a wee bag o gaspers.

Angus MacFarlane




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 8:20:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'm a bit surprised that so little has been said about tobacco taxes in this thread. Given that most of the "How dare you evil liberals try to stop me from smoking in public!" stuff is coming from people who lean to the right (I get the impression that Termy's a libertarian, to pick one example, and apologise if I have that wrong), I'd have thought they'd be a lot more annoyed about the taxes they're paying for their fags.


I'm an indy, with a bit of a libertarian bent, I guess, and probably just as much of an anarchist bent, under certain circumstances. Maybe I'm best described as an "thoughtful willow" -- I look at situations, evaluate arguments, and balance it against personal responsibility and individual freedom, and then decide where a given policy is going to carry me.

In general, I oppose any laws that restrict an individual person from being able to do whatever xhe pleases with hir body, as long as hir doing so does not cause harm to someone else. For example, I opposed the mandatory vaccination for H1N1 that my employer tried to put into place -- and I agreed that, should I become sick with the flu, I would immediately agree to suspend work, drawing from my accrued vacation pay rather than sick pay, until I was cleared to return by my doctor. (I was one of three people in our department who -didn't- get the flu this season... and none of the three of us got flu shots).

I figure that there -are- long-term costs associated with cigarette smoking. I knew that a long time ago, and for many years, I still chose to smoke. It makes perfect sense to me that I would pay taxes to cover the extra costs of my vice. It would make even MORE sense to me if we had a national health plan where those taxes were actually GOING to something having to do with my health, but I'm not even going to -go- there right now.

There are taxes I find unjust. I think that it is completely unjust that I have to pay both an INCOME tax AND a SALES tax -- one or the other, to fund the running of a lean government with minimal stacks of intrusive laws... yeah, that would work for me... I'd be willing to pay a 15% flat tax on imported items, OR a 15% flat tax on my income, but double taxation bites wienies (and not in a good way).

I believe that people will not learn how to respect one another's private space through "nanny laws" that attempt to compel good manners. I also think that, if someone doesn't want to smell cigarette smoke when they're out in public, they're welcome to choose their venues accordingly, as long as, if -I- want to have a cigarette while I'm out in public, I have the option of having a place where =I= can do so as well.

Freedom isn't freedom if you have to step on someone else's neck to get it.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 8:28:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Julia-  a number of people are leaving CA.   CA is one of 4 states that a faction in Mexico wants back.

The issue is not the smoking- it is that a centralized power is dictating law to the point that some bloke in UK rots in jail for 6 months.

The govt should not legislate  common sense.

Much of what we see today is for 30 years from now.  Look at the youth with no manners and no civility.   For the most part the grid leaves us old farts like me alone.

This is the result of taken god out of life.   People have no manners to eachother- so then the state must mandate- but this then makes the state into god.    The know all -be all- is now the state.



I take exception to this statement, PA... I am non-theistic, and have been for much of my adult life, and I manage to have perfectly good manners, treat others with at least some measure of dignity and respect, and take personal responsibility for the choices that I make (including how those choices might affect others, whenever possible -- including choosing not to smoke someplace where it might ruin a meal that someone else had paid for... if only people who wore cloying perfumes and colognes would have the same respect for others).

That being said, I still disagree with the government's right to determine whether or not I am allowed to have a cigarette when I go out for supper. If the owner of an establishment wants to tell me that I can't smoke in his restaurant, that's jolly well good by me... that's hir right... it's hir business. If I like hir food, I will probably come and eat and just have my cig elsewhere. If hir food is cruddy, I'll likely decide it's not worth the hassle, and find someplace else to eat. OTOH, having someone ELSE decide for me that I have to give up -anything-, whether it is cigarettes, sugar, corn syrup, trans fats, or whatever else Joe Shmoe sees as WRONG, no matter what justification a person tries to use, and getting things like that legislated is, in my opinion, a bloody -crime against the dignity and humanity of every other adult in that nation-.




Termyn8or -> RE: Pub landlord is first person in Britain to be jailed over smoking ban Read more: http://www.dai (3/1/2010 8:43:58 AM)

FR

OK settle ! Everyone wants to be dictator, that was said in one of those forgeries I read years ago. How untrue, all everybody really wants is for everyone else to obey them. There is a big, yet undetectable difference. Now remember that none of my friends, family, business associates, employers or employees gives a shit what is illegal. I seem to gravitate towards this type of people, go figure. However that does not mean an issue like this cannot hit home, and it has.

Not boasting at the moment,  but I am very hard to replace at work. I smoke. I work maybe fifteen feet away from someone who does not only not smoke, the smoke bothers him. Law or no law, he is also very difficult to replace. Where are we now ? Well on my boss's authority now I must go into the office or downstairs to smoke. I don't mind actually because it gives me an excuse for a break. I used to just smoke as I worked, but now I can kick back and enjoy it. Also, on a given workday I might only smoke two cigarettes all the time I am there, which saves me money. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less about the law, but if it bothers my esteemed coworker I can refrain, or move myself to where I don't bother him.

Years ago I used to take a bus. A Lady and a Gentleman were having a discussion at the stop and I joined in. I lit up, after all it was outside. She didn't like it and he asked me to please smoke that thing outside the shelter. I put the cigarette out and said "No, I'll just refrain for a time". This is common courtesy people. It's like if you have a lit acetylene torch and somebody says "Stop burning me with that thing". It is a simple matter to point it in a different direction.

I can live with that, common decency and such. I am not really addicted so I can do without. Especially if it really bothers someone. In people's homes and businesses the way I see it is that the owner's word is Law and I do not disrespect that. But I absolutely no respect for the government, nor those who use it as a big brother to impose their will on others.

Kapeesh ?

T




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