RE: Was jesus the messiah?

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Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (2/28/2010 11:52:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream I am not sure how we count the Bible as the be all end all to what did or didnt happen. Much like following government, let us say, to say and know all that has happened in our society. That would not be a fair and honest account would it? Nope because so much goes on doesnt it? How bout that they left the Book of Mary out of the bible huh? What does that tell you about the reliability or absolute truth about a bunch of written words by men back then? Think it might be a skewed place to go look for your hard core evidence. I take it from this that you've never actually read the book of mary. You know the book of enoch isn't in mainstream cannon either, yet jude, a book based entirely on enoch, is. The original wasn't good enough for the bible but the cheap copy somehow was. There are many curiosities about biblical cannon inclusion, but this particular topic is on the hebrew messianic prophicies, not on christian cannon.

heartcream -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (2/28/2010 1:03:38 PM)
I thought this post was about whether Jesus was/is the man or not. I would love to read the book of Mary. I wish they included it originally. There are all sorts of reasons things got included or excluded.

Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (2/28/2010 1:19:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream I thought this post was about whether Jesus was/is the man or not. I would love to read the book of Mary. I wish they included it originally. There are all sorts of reasons things got included or excluded. The man? At any rate the gospel of mary had a high gnostic taste to it, most of the gnostic texts were written long after aproximate date of jesus' death. The further an account is written from the actual event the less likely it is to have historically accurate data. Not impossible, but less and less likely. At any rate it's been some time since I read it. If it contains information pertenant to the messianic prophicies and jesus's alledged fullfilment of them we can certainly discuss it as well. A translation of it (I do not know the quality of the translation mind you) is available here if you'd like to read it. It's quite short. http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm I hope this is the book you were refering to.

Kirata -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (2/28/2010 1:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva The obvious conclusion then is that, no, jesus was not the messiah. I would be curious to know what people think is the difference it would make. K.

Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 12:03:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva The obvious conclusion then is that, no, jesus was not the messiah. I would be curious to know what people think is the difference it would make. K. Intersting question. In my experience people look at it in various ways ranging all the way from it making a marginal difference to it debunking the christian religion as a whole.

eyesopened -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 3:15:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva The obvious conclusion then is that, no, jesus was not the messiah. I would be curious to know what people think is the difference it would make. K. I won't have a very popular view but here it is. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever. First, it is obvious that Jesus was not the Jewish messiah. Had he been, Jews would say so. He didn't meet the criteria of prophesy. Period. But the Greek "Christ" isn't the same as Messiah, it means more like "chosen" or somewhat like buddah.."enlightened" and in that context Jesus most assuredly was a chosen one, and enlightened one, a christ. Second, there are some gnostic texts that suggest Mary's father, like Anne's, was a priest which would make her lineage that of Levi, not Judah. I personally believe Joseph, from the line of Judah, to be the father of Jesus. I don't believe Mary got pregnant by supernatural means. The same was written about Buddah much after his death. It seems people like to add that supernatural touch because either no one wants to believe a mere mortal could have such insight or because if someone is a god then you can't ever be expected to aspire to be like them. Third, I don't believe my God is so powerless that He is unable to make holy anyone or anything He chooses. It seems all God needs to do is to declare a place holy to make it so, like in the story of the burning bush. He declares Jesus holy at his baptism. That's good enough for me. Jesus is Holy. Jesus is not a god. Jesus was not thought to be Divine until the council of Nicea. Before that he was a mortal being. That negates not one word of his message for me.

GotSteel -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 7:23:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen "He wasnt the Messiah - he was a very naughty boy" Honestly, is there any point to this? Those who think he is (present tense) the Messiah will not be persuaded otherwise, and those who think he isnt wont be persuaded otherwise either. Such debate misses the point entirely that it is a matter of faith. E People are persuaded otherwise all the time, that's why atheism is on the rise.

juliaoceania -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 7:30:30 AM)
fast reply.... I have not found where the OP addressed Mary's blood line which is strongly suggested to be descended from David through her familial relationships, as thadius suggested... I wonder if Jesus ever existed, but besides that, the book that writes about him went through great lengths to prop him up as "Messiah" giving him claim through both blood lines... and you don't get much more pure royal blood than being descended from the Almighty, for crying out loud! Now I find Messiahs that are descended from God to be ubiquitous in the ancient world, and Jesus isn't the only one.

sirsholly -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 7:39:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Honestly, is there any point to this? Those who think he is (present tense) the Messiah will not be persuaded otherwise, and those who think he isnt wont be persuaded otherwise either. Such debate misses the point entirely that it is a matter of faith. E amen!

Jeffff -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 7:39:53 AM)
Amoung the many things we have in common, Jesus and I are both Capricorns. If you are not happy with Jesus, I am available for worship. And tithing! Jeff

mnottertail -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 7:41:44 AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89IRGoggjWM

philosophy -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 9:28:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva The obvious conclusion then is that, no, jesus was not the messiah. I would be curious to know what people think is the difference it would make. K. Intersting question. In my experience people look at it in various ways ranging all the way from it making a marginal difference to it debunking the christian religion as a whole. ......there's nothing to debunk. Christianity in particular and religion in general is not an exercise in logic. It's an exercise in faith. It's not about proving anything, it's to do with the responses of an individual in the wee small hours of the night, when there's no-one around. Just them and the universe. i simply don't care whether or not you think you've found some logical hole in a non-logical argument. The only test i'll put on faith is how it leads an individual to behave. Does an individuals faith make them act as a better human being or a worse one? Any other rationale is bollocks.

Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:04:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania fast reply.... I have not found where the OP addressed Mary's blood line which is strongly suggested to be descended from David through her familial relationships, as thadius suggested... The reference that thadius provided doesn't imply mary in any way. The passage specifically says 'Jospeh son of', not mary or anything that implies mary. This was already addressed. Thadious' argument was based on a translation that came out of the King James Version, the single worst translation in modern use. And there are a handful of other prophicies already listed that jesus did not fullfill.

Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:12:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva The obvious conclusion then is that, no, jesus was not the messiah. I would be curious to know what people think is the difference it would make. K. I won't have a very popular view but here it is. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever. First, it is obvious that Jesus was not the Jewish messiah. Had he been, Jews would say so. He didn't meet the criteria of prophesy. Period. But the Greek "Christ" isn't the same as Messiah, it means more like "chosen" or somewhat like buddah.."enlightened" and in that context Jesus most assuredly was a chosen one, and enlightened one, a christ. Second, there are some gnostic texts that suggest Mary's father, like Anne's, was a priest which would make her lineage that of Levi, not Judah. I personally believe Joseph, from the line of Judah, to be the father of Jesus. I don't believe Mary got pregnant by supernatural means. The same was written about Buddah much after his death. It seems people like to add that supernatural touch because either no one wants to believe a mere mortal could have such insight or because if someone is a god then you can't ever be expected to aspire to be like them. Third, I don't believe my God is so powerless that He is unable to make holy anyone or anything He chooses. It seems all God needs to do is to declare a place holy to make it so, like in the story of the burning bush. He declares Jesus holy at his baptism. That's good enough for me. Jesus is Holy. Jesus is not a god. Jesus was not thought to be Divine until the council of Nicea. Before that he was a mortal being. That negates not one word of his message for me. First, christ is an english word based on the greek kristos (sp?) which came from the hebrew word masiah meaning annointed one (another qualification jesus does not fullfill). Christ then means anointed one, not 'enlightened'. Second, can you provide a good reason for gnostic texts to be tacken into account? Third, it would seem that if you remove jesus as a god, then the mainstream god is removed as well. Mainstream christianity today is based on the idea of the trinity. Without jesus that trinity does not exist and thus that version of god does not.

juliaoceania -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:12:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania fast reply.... I have not found where the OP addressed Mary's blood line which is strongly suggested to be descended from David through her familial relationships, as thadius suggested... The reference that thadius provided doesn't imply mary in any way. The passage specifically says 'Jospeh son of', not mary or anything that implies mary. This was already addressed. And there are a handful of other prophicies already listed that jesus did not fullfill. http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=400 Like I said, the myth of Jesus is much like the myths of other gods in the ancient world, born of virgins, reborn, performed miracles, etc etc etc

Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:22:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania fast reply.... I have not found where the OP addressed Mary's blood line which is strongly suggested to be descended from David through her familial relationships, as thadius suggested... The reference that thadius provided doesn't imply mary in any way. The passage specifically says 'Jospeh son of', not mary or anything that implies mary. This was already addressed. And there are a handful of other prophicies already listed that jesus did not fullfill. http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=400 Like I said, the myth of Jesus is much like the myths of other gods in the ancient world, born of virgins, reborn, performed miracles, etc etc etc That is true.

juliaoceania -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:25:00 AM)
quote: That is true. The Torah is filled with all sorts of untrue crap also... So what is the point of arguing whether Jesus fulfilled it or not, isn't that sort of meaningless?

Bodhisatva -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:34:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: That is true. The Torah is filled with all sorts of untrue crap also... So what is the point of arguing whether Jesus fulfilled it or not, isn't that sort of meaningless? From an athiest or non-abrahamic persepcive yes, yes it is. But from the perspective of a biblical scholar or a believing christain it can be a very interesting and/or pivitol point

mikeyOfGeorgia -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:46:37 AM)
quote: Was jesus the messiah? no, he was a fictional character in one of the oldest, poorly written fictional anthologies ever concocted by man.

juliaoceania -> RE: Was jesus the messiah? (3/1/2010 10:56:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: That is true. The Torah is filled with all sorts of untrue crap also... So what is the point of arguing whether Jesus fulfilled it or not, isn't that sort of meaningless? From an athiest or non-abrahamic persepcive yes, yes it is. But from the perspective of a biblical scholar or a believing christain it can be a very interesting and/or pivitol point For me it is like saying "my interpretation of Jesus is better than your interpretation of Jesus" It is sounds a little like Lost fans discussing what the smoke monster is... You aren't going to prove anything because the text is 1000s of years old, and the world is a much different place. And your myths are no more valid than theirs, get it? It is all a bunch of myth, and you stating that their myths are more mythical than your myths is pretty amusing actually. Just let people believe what they believe instead of going into the one twue wayism

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