RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 9:37:10 AM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

They are apply for asylum based on religious prosecution. They say that what their children are being taught in the Germany public schools go against their belief so they left Germany and moved to the USA where home schooling is allowed. Religion is subject of its own in schools that is not a mandatory subject (parents or guardians are allowed to remove their children from this subject with a good reason) and from the age of 12 a student is allowed to decide for themselves if they wish to partake in religion or not.

verity

Unless there was a recent change at the age when a student can leave religious education then it still is 14 in Germany.
I left religious education once I turned 14 not because of the subject itself but because our teacher in that year in that subject could not stop picking on me (well, it was actually bullying in my view) claiming how much I should know as I would be from such a religious village...not only that this village with 4500 people is not that religious anymore since decades she also did not pick up on the other 5 in our class from the same area...and as I turned 14 in January just when the next term started I handed her happily in my paper not to be part of her class anymore

and took a stroll in town as in that year they had no ethics as alternative

Also when I worked in a childrens village who was a lot into christian stuff we gave the kids the opportunity not to go to church once they turned 14, as again, at 14 they were allowed to decide themselves in that respect.

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 3/3/2010 9:55:13 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 9:50:18 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Requiring that kids get a decent education is not oppression. They should be shipped back to Germany.

Who decides what constitutes a “decent” education?

Granted that on the list of oppressive things a government can do, this doesn’t rank high on the list. Still, the notion that the State has the right to dictate what your kids learn is a dangerous one.

I disagree. The "state" here dictates what you learn. just not what religion you learn.

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Post #: 22

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 9:54:03 AM

Musicmystery

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You're both wrong (I think--it's ambiguous which system you're addressing).

Locally elected school boards control education in the U.S.

That's actually part of the problem, but not the matter here.

I'm not sure how that works in Germany, though.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/3/2010 9:56:06 AM >

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 23

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 9:57:44 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Requiring that kids get a decent education is not oppression. They should be shipped back to Germany.

Who decides what constitutes a “decent” education?

Granted that on the list of oppressive things a government can do, this doesn’t rank high on the list. Still, the notion that the State has the right to dictate what your kids learn is a dangerous one.

I disagree. The "state" here dictates what you learn. just not what religion you learn.

Apart from that it can also be damn dangerous to trust what some parents teach their kids

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Post #: 24

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 10:08:51 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You're both wrong (I think--it's ambiguous which system you're addressing).

Locally elected school boards control education in the U.S.

That's actually part of the problem, but not the matter here.

I'm not sure how that works in Germany, though.

As far as I know (though I would not put my hand into fire for that) every county has its own school-department who takes responsibility about what subjects are being taught and they also e.g. prepare the exam papers for final classes (eg when you leave the 4th year to change into the next school which is divided in three different school systems) as well as the papers for the years 9, 10 and 12/13 when you leave school (leaving school in Germany means that you either enter an apprentice ship or studies when you leave school and if not you still have to attend a college for further education until you turn 18; just because you finish aged 16 and didn't manage to get an apprentice ship does not mean you can just sit at home doing nothing).

Something like that it was when I went to school as in our county we always had the exams at the same day at the same time with the same exam paper like any other school in our county.

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

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Post #: 25

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 10:09:51 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Requiring that kids get a decent education is not oppression. They should be shipped back to Germany.

Who decides what constitutes a “decent” education?

Granted that on the list of oppressive things a government can do, this doesn’t rank high on the list. Still, the notion that the State has the right to dictate what your kids learn is a dangerous one.

Only if you presuppose that children are the property of their parents. Discard that repugnant premise and you will see quite clearly that it is a basic need of society that all children receive a good education.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 26

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 12:15:23 PM

calamitysandra

Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

They are apply for asylum based on religious prosecution. They say that what their children are being taught in the Germany public schools go against their belief so they left Germany and moved to the USA where home schooling is allowed. Religion is subject of its own in schools that is not a mandatory subject (parents or guardians are allowed to remove their children from this subject with a good reason) and from the age of 12 a student is allowed to decide for themselves if they wish to partake in religion or not.

verity

Unless there was a recent change at the age when a student can leave religious education then it still is 14 in Germany.
I left religious education once I turned 14 not because of the subject itself but because our teacher in that year in that subject could not stop picking on me (well, it was actually bullying in my view) claiming how much I should know as I would be from such a religious village...not only that this village with 4500 people is not that religious anymore since decades she also did not pick up on the other 5 in our class from the same area...and as I turned 14 in January just when the next term started I handed her happily in my paper not to be part of her class anymore and took a stroll in town as in that year they had no ethics as alternative

Also when I worked in a childrens village who was a lot into christian stuff we gave the kids the opportunity not to go to church once they turned 14, as again, at 14 they were allowed to decide themselves in that respect.

It is 12.

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Post #: 27

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 12:23:42 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

I don't believe freedom of a parent determined education is a reason for a family to be able to obtain asylum. To me, this is something that they need to deal with about their country, not use the concept of asylum to get into the US. I do not believe this is a religious issue that needs to have asylum be connected to it. The parents need to go home. I am almost if asylum is considered that the consideration is ONLY for the children, they can board at some school at the parents expense if education is the REAL reason -- but the parents need to go home. If religion is the issue, why aren't they sending their kids to school here in the US? What issues are there with OUR schools? We have no religion in our schools. So why are they homeschooling the kids?

Sorry, i don't think the wish to homeschool children for whatever reason is a reason for asylum for the parents. Kids, i can ALMOST say well okay -- if asylum will even be considered. But not for the parents.

Sounds cold, i know. But if this issue is really about the education of their children based on religion, then the parents can send them to school here -- they don't need to LIVE here. Send the parent's home, board the kids at the parents' expense as there are PLENTY of schools here in the US where i am sure they can find a curriculm that they can accept. If they can't afford to board, there are scholarships etc or let the association who was sooo eager to have them over here pay to board the kids if they care SOO much for this family. Send the parents home to fight for the change their country because they have other children i believe and i believe many families wish this allowance of homeschooling. After the kids graduate they can then see if their visas will continue or they go home.

There are many other solutions outside of asylum and the parents and whole family staying in the US.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/3/2010 12:25:06 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 2:33:00 PM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

They are apply for asylum based on religious prosecution. They say that what their children are being taught in the Germany public schools go against their belief so they left Germany and moved to the USA where home schooling is allowed. Religion is subject of its own in schools that is not a mandatory subject (parents or guardians are allowed to remove their children from this subject with a good reason) and from the age of 12 a student is allowed to decide for themselves if they wish to partake in religion or not.

verity

Unless there was a recent change at the age when a student can leave religious education then it still is 14 in Germany.
I left religious education once I turned 14 not because of the subject itself but because our teacher in that year in that subject could not stop picking on me (well, it was actually bullying in my view) claiming how much I should know as I would be from such a religious village...not only that this village with 4500 people is not that religious anymore since decades she also did not pick up on the other 5 in our class from the same area...and as I turned 14 in January just when the next term started I handed her happily in my paper not to be part of her class anymore and took a stroll in town as in that year they had no ethics as alternative

Also when I worked in a childrens village who was a lot into christian stuff we gave the kids the opportunity not to go to church once they turned 14, as again, at 14 they were allowed to decide themselves in that respect.

It is 12.

Not necessarily...unless (as I stated before) there have been recent changes...

as wikipedia confirms (though I am not a fan of them most of the time)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religionsunterricht_in_Deutschland

"Bis zum 14. Lebensjahr entscheiden die Eltern des Kindes über seine Teilnahme am Religionsunterricht. Ab dem zehnten Lebensjahr ist das Kind zu hören, wenn es in einem anderen Bekenntnis als bisher erzogen werden soll. Vom zwölften Lebensjahr an bedarf diese Entscheidung der Zustimmung des Kindes. Nach dem 14. Lebensjahr ist das Kind religionsmündig und entscheidet allein über seine Religionszugehörigkeit sowie seine Teilnahme am Religionsunterricht (§ 5 RKErzG). Bekenntnisangehörige Schüler können sich in Bayern und im Saarland erst nach dem 18. Lebensjahr selbst vom Religionsunterricht abmelden."

therefore the sole decision from the kid is 14, but I am not surprised if that would differ in some counties.

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 3/3/2010 2:34:03 PM >

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 29

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 3:44:36 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I disagree. The "state" here dictates what you learn. just not what religion you learn.

I am not questioning wether it does or doesn't (clearly it does) but wether it should. If you accept the premise that the State can dictate what your children learn then you have no basis upon which to object when they start teaching things you disagree with. Mister X may be okay with the State teaching his children that racisim is bad (what decent person wouldn't?) but what if ten years later - with new people and a new ideology ruling the State - it is decided his children must learn that black people are inferior sub-humans?

It is not about what is being taught, but about the right of the people not to have their children indoctrinated by the State.

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Post #: 30

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 6:11:58 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I disagree. The "state" here dictates what you learn. just not what religion you learn.

I am not questioning wether it does or doesn't (clearly it does) but wether it should. If you accept the premise that the State can dictate what your children learn then you have no basis upon which to object when they start teaching things you disagree with.

Sure you do. You get to object on the first Tuesday following the first Monday in November, or whatever other date your local board of education stands for election.

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Post #: 31

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 6:19:30 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower
and...Panda, I am happy to help you to get to know common rules if you move over there

Well, thank you! That's very kind. I forgot you're from there. I may very well take you up on that someday. Germany's definitely one of the countries on my short list. I'll just have to see how it all plays out.

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Post #: 32

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 6:27:11 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Sure you do. You get to object on the first Tuesday following the first Monday in November, or whatever other date your local board of education stands for election.

If the State in question, or the new regime, allows elections.

ETA: I am not using the word "State" to refer to any of the United States but in the more general definition meaning government: "The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity or the sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity."

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 3/3/2010 6:46:26 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/3/2010 10:21:08 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
It is not about what is being taught, but about the right of the people not to have their children indoctrinated by the State.

Shouldn't children have the right not to be indoctrinated by their parents? Or at the very least shouldn't they be presented with other viewpoints?

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 34

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 9:25:44 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

Shouldn't children have the right not to be indoctrinated by their parents? Or at the very least shouldn't they be presented with other viewpoints?

I put more trust in parents than the State to decide what is right for their children.

Also, who decides what constitues a legitamate "other" viewpoint? Some people argue that Creationism is a valid other viewpoint. Would you be okay with Creationism (or its dressed up new version, Intelligent Design) being taught in public school science classes? I'm not.

BUT...

I am okay with parents home schooling thier children so that they can be taught Creationism rather than Evolution.

Not because I believe in Creationism (I most certainly do not) but because I respect the rights and freedoms of others.

If I don't respect the rights and freedoms of others, on what basis can I expect them to respect mine?

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Post #: 35

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:11:46 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
I am okay with parents home schooling thier children so that they can be taught Creationism rather than Evolution.

Not because I believe in Creationism (I most certainly do not) but because I respect the rights and freedoms of others.

If I don't respect the rights and freedoms of others, on what basis can I expect them to respect mine?

So you think children are the property of their parents? I reject that because I believe in freedom.

I rely on the bulk of society, as it operates through its government, to know what is best for its children compared to relying on individual parents.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 36

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:18:29 AM

intenze

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States do set standards for education, not the local school boards. The local school board is more likely to set rules about how things are taught and what the rules are for schools, not curriculum.
It can be twisted in various ways. For example, it is mandatory to teach the science of evolution in schools in my state. However, I know two fundamentalist Christian biology teachers who dismiss it or change around the curriculum to suit their own agenda.
Even as a public school educator, I believe it is a parent's right to homeschool. Many homeschooled students are very well prepared when they come back to public school for pre-college classes. I have also seen, though, that parents have used "homeschooling" as an excuse to keep older children home to help out with younger ones.
There is a home-school curriculum with standardized testing in my state to help weed out that kind of stuff, though.

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Post #: 37

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:20:45 AM

MichiganHeadmast

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Only if they brought beer and bratwurst.

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Post #: 38

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:37:16 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

So you think children are the property of their parents?

Property? Fuck no! Where would you get a silly notion like that? I do, however believe that parents have the right to teach their values (so long as their values don't envolve killing people or stuff) to their children.

quote:

I reject that because I believe in freedom.

The freedom of strangers to teach your children things contrary to your own belife?

quote:

I rely on the bulk of society, as it operates through its government, to know what is best for its children compared to relying on individual parents.

There is no way you can hold with that statement and also believe in freedom. The whole point of freedom is to have as little government interference in your life as necessary. It is one thing to have the government say "don't kill people or else" or "don't run red lights or else." It is quite another for the government to say "you're child must learn this or else," because there we are dealing with matters of individual conscience.

Relying on government to have your best intentions at heart is stupid. Have you noticed the things that governments have done throughout history? You know, things like the Gulag, the Holocaust, slavery?

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Post #: 39

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:43:15 AM

PapaBlue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So you think children are the property of their parents? I reject that because I believe in freedom.

DomKen, I think you are trying to put words in people's mouths. Children aren't property. And they also aren't adults.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I rely on the bulk of society, as it operates through its government, to know what is best for its children compared to relying on individual parents.

And you believe in freedom? But more to the point, are you prepared to apply what you just said to all societies or just to the ones that happen to generally agree with you? Do you think the Khmer Rouge knew what was best for children? Or the government of Kim Jong Il? If, because of majority sentiment, we began to insert Creationism into biology classes, would you just say, "Oh, well, society thinks that's best"?

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