RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:44:47 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

States do set standards for education, not the local school boards. The local school board is more likely to set rules about how things are taught and what the rules are for schools, not curriculum.
It can be twisted in various ways. For example, it is mandatory to teach the science of evolution in schools in my state. However, I know two fundamentalist Christian biology teachers who dismiss it or change around the curriculum to suit their own agenda.
Even as a public school educator, I believe it is a parent's right to homeschool. Many homeschooled students are very well prepared when they come back to public school for pre-college classes. I have also seen, though, that parents have used "homeschooling" as an excuse to keep older children home to help out with younger ones.
There is a home-school curriculum with standardized testing in my state to help weed out that kind of stuff, though.

I am not against the concept of public schools or standard (state, sure as hell not federal since that violates the U.S. Constitution) curriculums within that state. What I am against is the notion that the government has the right to force us into such systems.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 10:47:36 AM

kittinSol

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I'm also against parents that believe that 1. their children belong to them and that 2. they have the right to selfishly brainwash them into their belief of choice. Children are in the care of their parents to be raised into thinking citizens, not to become the next generation of loony bin wingnuts.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 11:16:38 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

I'm also against parents that believe that 1. their children belong to them and that 2. they have the right to selfishly brainwash them into their belief of choice. Children are in the care of their parents to be raised into thinking citizens, not to become the next generation of loony bin wingnuts.

Who decides what constitutes a thinking citizen versus a loony bin wingnut?

All to often it turns out that a thinking citizen is someone who agrees with me and a loony bin wingnut is someone who disagrees with me.

One person's rights end where the next person's rights begin. Within that stricture, the government has no business telling us what we may believe.

Consider the Duggars. As far as I'm concerned their beliefs are loony tune. Yet, as far as I know, they haven't shot any abortion doctors, haven't gone to funerals waving "God Hates Fags," signs, haven't flown any airplanes into buildings or chopped off the heads of "infidels.' On the contrary, they are always polite toward others and respectful of the rights of others to have their own religious beliefs. So who the hell are we, via the proxy of government, to march into their home and tell them, "you must teach your children to believe this because we think you are loony tune?"

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 11:17:11 AM

LafayetteLady

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FR-

I'm not against homeschooling, and in this country in most places, you don't need a "reason" to choose to do so. You do, however, have the responsibility of teaching the children what is necessary for their future. In other words, you need to follow some type of standardized curriculum. Children need to learn specific things in order to function in society. When standardized testing is given, it doesn't include history, it doesn't include religion. Standardized testing includes language and reading skills and mathmatics. They have also begun to include some science, but that doesn't include evolution or creationism.

So on the one hand you have the concept that parents have the right to teach their children as they see fit. So what happens in families where they believe women should serve men (some of the more extreme religious sects, for example)? Should they be free to not teach their female children the basic skills of reading, writing and mathmatics? By saying that parents should have the right to teach what they see fit, you are espousing that concept.

But the issue here is not whether or not a parent's right to decide what their child learns. The issue is whether or not a parent's desire to have their children shielded from certain aspects of a public school education warrants them seeking asylum in another country. This case is not simply based on religious ideology, because it is mentioned the parents are also concerned about bullying, although if their children haven't been to public school, one has to wonder why they think their children would be bullied. As LadyEllen pointed out, within Europe, families are free to relocate to several different countries without any problems that would arise immigrating to the USA. LE also mentioned that several of those European countries permit home schooling. The group that helped the parents are from the USA, and they have their own agenda that they are trying to propel forward through the publicity they get with this family. Because there are options available to this family to be free of the "persecution" they claim to be experiencing without having to immigrate to the United State, they should not be given asylum. They could have been free from that persecution by simply moving to France.

Many people have responded with a parent's right to teach their children as they see fit, however, not many of those people addressed whether or not that right rises to the level of granting asylum. Asylum was conceived to protect people from real fears and threats, not because you aren't happy with the school system of your country. Had this been from a country where the females weren't permitted to attend school at all, perhaps it would be different, but that isn't the case. If we allow this family to stay because they want to home school their children in the manner in which they see fit, what contribution will that family be making to this country? Are their children learning to speak english? Because certainly, if they are going to live in this country, they must teach their children how to communicate in this country, so we are dictating what they teach their children as well as Germany, if in a different way.

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Post #: 44

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 12:38:21 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Granted that on the list of oppressive things a government can do, this doesn’t rank high on the list. Still, the notion that the State has the right to dictate what your kids learn is a dangerous one.

True.

Conversely, though, one wonders how stupid/ignorant you're allowed to keep your children before it could conceivably be considered child abuse.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 12:54:55 PM

GuinevereLost

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I am a home educator (not for religious reasons) and I do not believe these people should get asylum. If they want to come here let them work at it like everyone else. Using this as an excuse is very odd imo. But, I do not know their full situation since most news articles leave a lot to be desired in fact department. I wish them luck in life, and maybe one day the kids will come first as they should always and not their own political or religious beliefs.

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Post #: 46

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 1:04:09 PM

intenze

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quote:

Conversely, though, one wonders how stupid/ignorant you're allowed to keep your children before it could conceivably be considered child abuse.

My own experience has shown me that you can keep your child stupid and ignorant and still send them to public school.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 1:06:58 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Granted that on the list of oppressive things a government can do, this doesn’t rank high on the list. Still, the notion that the State has the right to dictate what your kids learn is a dangerous one.

True.

Conversely, though, one wonders how stupid/ignorant you're allowed to keep your children before it could conceivably be considered child abuse.

Exactly. Take Fred Phelps' progeny, for instance. Or the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints. These people are clearly demented, and subject their children to years of indoctrination in order to try and deprive them from free will and all that for what? For the spurious right that they can keep their children away from the negative impact of society.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 1:15:17 PM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GuinevereLost

I am a home educator (not for religious reasons) and I do not believe these people should get asylum. If they want to come here let them work at it like everyone else. Using this as an excuse is very odd imo. But, I do not know their full situation since most news articles leave a lot to be desired in fact department. I wish them luck in life, and maybe one day the kids will come first as they should always and not their own political or religious beliefs.

I do agree with you and also don't see this as a reason for asylum...I mean heck, some people wait for ages for health treatment in the UK where at times it costs their life due to not getting the results on time (like a recent cancer patient where it was reportet that it took a hospital with a bad reputation 18 months to finally diagnose her with a certain cancer despite that she did show obvious symptoms) wouldn't this then be another example as well to apply for asylum??? As at least in such as case it threatens the life itself???

If they go over to the US I would not be surprised if they go back to Germany once their kids might decide to study later, as then they realise that studying in Germany is still cheap compared to the US and the UK (they just starte to introduce University fees from ridicouslus 1000 Euro a year) how handy is that then for them

or is that provided by the parents as well

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 3:42:17 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Conversely, though, one wonders how stupid/ignorant you're allowed to keep your children before it could conceivably be considered child abuse.

I don't have a problem with the state requiering basic education - reading, writing, 'rithmatic - but when we start getting into areas of science, religion, history, etc - areas of deeply held personal conviction, it is quite another matter.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 3:44:51 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Exactly. Take Fred Phelps' progeny, for instance. Or the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints. These people are clearly demented, and subject their children to years of indoctrination in order to try and deprive them from free will and all that for what? For the spurious right that they can keep their children away from the negative impact of society.

There's a difference between teaching your children that God created the earth in six days and teaching them to violate the rights of other via harrasment.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 3:51:55 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

My own experience has shown me that you can keep your child stupid and ignorant and still send them to public school.

In some places sending them to public school is all you need to do to keep them stupid and ignorant. Take a poll amongst twenty somethings and ask them such questions as:

When did the U.S. civil war begin?

"Who said "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" ?

Show me where the United States is on this map?

From far to large a number of them, you'll get blank stares.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 4:00:34 PM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
"Who said "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" ?

Well, I do know that Hermione said that one in Harry Potter 2...right?

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 4:01:06 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

So you think children are the property of their parents?

Property? Fuck no! Where would you get a silly notion like that? I do, however believe that parents have the right to teach their values (so long as their values don't envolve killing people or stuff) to their children.

Then answer why you think parents should have any say so in the education of their children?

quote:

quote:

I reject that because I believe in freedom.

The freedom of strangers to teach your children things contrary to your own belife?

It is the only way to guarantee that a child's parent's backwards beliefs won't permanently restrict that persons options.

quote:

quote:

I rely on the bulk of society, as it operates through its government, to know what is best for its children compared to relying on individual parents.

There is no way you can hold with that statement and also believe in freedom. The whole point of freedom is to have as little government interference in your life as necessary. It is one thing to have the government say "don't kill people or else" or "don't run red lights or else." It is quite another for the government to say "you're child must learn this or else," because there we are dealing with matters of individual conscience.

But we're not dealing with issues of individual conscience. The child simply doesn't have those until indoctrinated by the parent which inevitably brings us back to why do you think parents own their children.

quote:

Relying on government to have your best intentions at heart is stupid. Have you noticed the things that governments have done throughout history? You know, things like the Gulag, the Holocaust, slavery?

Yes. Society can go wrong but it goes wrong less often and less spectacularly badly than individuals. Follow the news in this country and the awful things that happen to children of parent's in oddball cults. then check out how many were homeschooled and had effectively no chance.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 6:08:35 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Then answer why you think parents should have any say so in the education of their children?

Because they are their children. If parents can’t have any say over their children’s education why then should they have any say over any aspect of raising their children? Why should they be allowed to raise their children at all? If the state is so much better qualified to raise children, let’s just have the state take them away at birth.

quote:

It is the only way to guarantee that a child's parent's backwards beliefs won't permanently restrict that persons options.

And who decides what is and is not a backwards belief? Today’s backward belief may be tomorrow’s ruling ideology.

quote:

But we're not dealing with issues of individual conscience.

The parent’s conscience.

quote:

The child simply doesn't have those until indoctrinated by the parent

This statement negates the concept of free will. If what you say were true then children raised as Christians would never become atheists, or vice versa.

quote:

which inevitably brings us back to why do you think parents own their children.

Once again, I do not think parents own their children. I do not think parents have an absolute right to do anything they want to their children (you’ll never find me at the extreme of any argument). But believing that doesn’t mean parents don’t have a say in how their children are raised. Based upon what you’re saying I could just as easily accuse you of believing that the state owns all children and can do to them whatever they want.

quote:

Yes. Society can go wrong but it goes wrong less often and less spectacularly badly than individuals.

Holy mother fuck. You can’t seriously believe that, can you? That’s like saying Nazi Germany went less wrong than the Waco cult. The sheer number of people affected alone is what makes governments and societies potentially way more dangerous than individuals.

quote:

Follow the news in this country and the awful things that happen to children of parent's in oddball cults. then check out how many were homeschooled and had effectively no chance.

That’s the wrong question to ask. The proper question would be how many home schooled children belong to dangerous (being an oddball doesn’t necessarily make a person dangerous) cults? Remember, there is a reason why you don’t see any newspaper headlines screaming: plane takes off, flies, and lands safely. 340 passengers are just fine. It is the out of ordinary that attracts media attention, not the expected norm.

It all comes down to this: do you respect the right of people (who are not violating the rights of others) to live their lives according to their own principles and beliefs, or not?

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 7:40:29 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

It all comes down to this: do you respect the right of people (who are not violating the rights of others) to live their lives according to their own principles and beliefs, or not?

Actually that isn't what it comes down to at all. It all comes down to whether or not a person who doesn't agree with the laws of their country constitutes the need to receive "asylum" from another country.

Public education came into being because of the very fact that it was decided that every child had a RIGHT to be educated. Because so many children weren't being taught those 3 Rs by their parents. So the government stepped in and decided that every child must be taught these things.

This isn't a thread about education and who provides it. It is about whether or not a person's belief about educating their child rises to the level of "oppression" and constitutes the need for asylum. What consitutes "oppression?" According to the article, these parents have fears their children will be bullied, but there is no substantiation of that fear. They don't want their children to learn anything that conflicts with their religious beliefs. How long should a parent be permitted to "shield" their child from the real world, where bullying and people with different beliefs will come into contact with them?

So these parents come to the USA so they can be free from the "oppression" of German laws that dictate you can't homeschool your children. Our education system requires these children learn English, so what if THAT goes against these parents' beliefs and they only want their children to learn German? Should we permit them to do so while residing in the United States?

No matter how you look at this, no matter how much a parent should have the right to shield their children from being taught things that they don't want them to learn, anywhere they live will place educational guidelines on these parents and dictate what the kids learn. Other options were available without them coming to the United States. The "oppression" they feel is all in the minds of the group that brought them here to push their agenda forward. They should be sent back to where they came from.

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 7:45:56 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. -- Abba Eban

Love, love, love this quote, Marc!

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RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 8:45:04 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
It all comes down to this: do you respect the right of people (who are not violating the rights of others) to live their lives according to their own principles and beliefs, or not?

I believe far more strongly than you do in everyone's rights. You unfortunately give primacy to one group over another.

As someone who grew up in an abusive and neglctful home I can say categorically that the only thing that saved me and my siblings was the fact that my parents would have had to go more trouble to homeschool us than it was to send us to public school. I believe society is improved by saving those kids whose parents are less lazy than mine were that others don't sickens me.

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Post #: 58

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/4/2010 9:06:16 PM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
It all comes down to this: do you respect the right of people (who are not violating the rights of others) to live their lives according to their own principles and beliefs, or not?

I believe far more strongly than you do in everyone's rights. You unfortunately give primacy to one group over another.

As someone who grew up in an abusive and neglctful home I can say categorically that the only thing that saved me and my siblings was the fact that my parents would have had to go more trouble to homeschool us than it was to send us to public school. I believe society is improved by saving those kids whose parents are less lazy than mine were that others don't sickens me.

This fact actually is one of the advantages I see in public schooling (though yes I know...its not the topic as such). However, schools who do care have at least the chance to pick it up if a child is not treated well at home as at times kids we got into the childrens home I worked in many years ago were referred to by the school to social services as at times teachers realised when kids came regular late or unwashed, tired and however to school and decided to look into it.

When I tried to skip school one day in my very first year the school called my mum who then turned up at my granny and brought me into school...so there my school worked fine.

On the negative side quite a few years ago we had a school who slept big time as a child never turned up in her first year and once they finally started to have a look at it (school started in september and the school started to wonder in January or March) the child was starved to death. That girl was kept locked in a room as it looks like all her short life, if the school would have done their duty and looked into it in the very first week, she probably would still be alive, likely mentally behind her age, but at least alive. So public school can be one potential measure to try to prevent such events happening...does not succeed always....but mine was in my back thats for sure

And in that respect private schooling sucks...because if the parents don't do a good job in that respect then the kids are pretty vulnerable

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 3/4/2010 9:09:06 PM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool... - 3/5/2010 5:10:35 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

Actually that isn't what it comes down to at all. It all comes down to whether or not a person who doesn't agree with the laws of their country constitutes the need to receive "asylum" from another country.

I haven’t been commentating on the specific case cited in the OP (as far as I am concerned they shouldn’t be granted asylum, especially – as other posters have pointed out – they do have other options) but on the general principle of freedom as it relates to home schooling. If this makes me some sort of evil thread-jacker, then so be it.

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