RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/7/2010 8:07:50 PM)
quote: One mans indoctrination is another mans teaching. You hit upon it wether you realized it or not. Since there can be no agreement the question then becomes: who decides which is which? I'm a power to the people kind of guy. I say let the parents be the primary deciders. I have already stated don't have a problem with basic education requierments and state oversight but the state is concentrated power (which by its very nature is dangerous to individuals and their liberties) and therefore must be kept in check as much as possible.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/7/2010 8:53:34 PM)
quote: I have already stated don't have a problem with basic education requierments and state oversight but the state is concentrated power (which by its very nature is dangerous to individuals and their liberties) and therefore must be kept in check as much as possible. I see you want them to be able to read but you don't want them to read anything controversial. You want them to be able to write but you do not want them to write anything controversial. You want them to learn "rithmatic" but you do not want them to use that "rithmatic" to do statistical research. You do not want them to know history. You do not want them to understand polemics. In short you want children to be ignorant of principles but know how to read the directions to turn on the machine they operate. Have you even a little clue what it was like before there were public schools?

LafayetteLady -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/7/2010 9:20:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: One mans indoctrination is another mans teaching. You hit upon it wether you realized it or not. Since there can be no agreement the question then becomes: who decides which is which? I'm a power to the people kind of guy. I say let the parents be the primary deciders. I have already stated don't have a problem with basic education requierments and state oversight but the state is concentrated power (which by its very nature is dangerous to individuals and their liberties) and therefore must be kept in check as much as possible. There is one huge problem with the idea that parents are the "primary deciders." It presumes that the parents are qualified to teach their children to begin with. I'm not anti-religion. In fact, I'm probably one of the more religious people around here. But the fact is that a significant number of parents who are homeschooling their children simply aren't qualified to do so. It isn't fair to a child who is ready to learn calculus not learn it because his parents don't know it. When it comes to the most "basic" subjects, most parents can be fine. But really, how many parents can teach about dangling participles? How many get messed up by converting fractions? How many of those evangelical Christians have enough advanced learning in ALL subjects to make sure their kids get the very best education possible? I understand and support parents who want their kids educations to have a religious "bend" to it. But you talk about "indoctrination." Do you think that a biology textbook that teaches Christianity is the only way, and anyone who disagrees is going to hell is NOT indoctrination? Or is it simply that a parent should be permitted to indoctrinate their children? I'm never going to be one who says that public schooling is the best possible education for children in this country. We are educationally behind countries like Germany. That isn't simply my opinion, it is a indisputable fact. Given that fact, how can the family seeking asylum really be believed to be doing what they are doing in the best interest of their children? That little fact really makes it clear that the children's educational needs are not the primary interest of either the parents or the group helping them. Rather it is this group's method of furthering their own agenda and the parents simply wanting to do what they want. It is not unreasonable for people who are very religious to not want their children to learn about evolution and not creationism. But at some point those kids are going to grow up and leave their parents umbrella of protection and if not ever told about evolution are going to be in for quite a shock when the subject comes up. You keep going on and on about "what ifs." What if some years from now, the "powers that be" want to teach that racism is good? The problem with that idea is that the people who believe that racism is good are typically the same people who are home schooling their children, first of all. Second of all, you are making the giant leap that society will move backwards as opposed to forwards, which is just silly. Does it occur to you that those biology textbooks which teach that "Christianity is the ONLY way, and that all others are doomed to hell...." are teaching hate? Do you realize that while your niece's parents wanted to teach their emotionally disabled child at home, and indeed the school does receive funding for their special needs child, that the school would also be required to provide her with an education that was at another school if they were unable to meet her needs? They also could be required to provide home tutoring. It has been pointed out to you that not all states regulate home schooling. That's pretty scary, don't you think? Teachers need to be certified in order to teach out children. If parents want to home school their kids, why shouldn't they have to be able to meet certain requirements? It doesn't mean that they can't teach a religous based curriculum, it means they need to prove they have the necessary knowledge to teach the other subjects. Why is it that some of the churches that those people attend don't offer parochial schooling? Then their children would be taught those basic subjects by people who know what they are doing. The problem is that while you want to believe that parents know best what their children's needs are, the reality is that the parents aren't always going to act in the children's best interest. They will become consumed by someone telling them they can't do what they want and fight for it not based on what's in their children's best interest, but simply because they are furious that someone else is telling them what to do. It would seem that while you go on and on about the State "indoctrinating" our children, you fail to see that a well rounded education is what the State seeks children to have. Separation of church and state prevents schools from teaching anything based in religious beliefs, but I don't know of any church or religious sect that doesn't offer classes about their religious beliefs that are open to all members of that religion.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/7/2010 9:23:15 PM)
quote: I see you want them to be able to read but you don't want them to read anything controversial. Wrong. quote: You want them to be able to write but you do not want them to write anything controversial. Wrong. quote: You want them to learn "rithmatic" but you do not want them to use that "rithmatic" to do statistical research. Wrong. quote: You do not want them to know history. Wrong. quote: You do not want them to understand polemics. Wrong. quote: In short you want children to be ignorant of principles but know how to read the directions to turn on the machine they operate. Wrong. What I want is for people like you to have a little faith that the majority of your fellow citizens are not crazy cult people. What I want is for people like you to have a little humility and realize that your notions of history and religion and science may not be the same as other peoples – which is their right. What I want is for people like you to respect those rights. quote: Have you even a little clue what it was like before there were public schools? Not relevant since I’m not calling for the abolition of public schools, merely the right for people to choose differently if the public school doesn’t meet their needs in terms of curriculum or ability to teach.

blacksword404 -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/7/2010 10:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: You got that backwards. Aristarchus of Samos is the first person to have suggested the heliocentric model that we know of. So what! I did not say that the church was the first one to believe this. I said: Religion used to teach us that the earth was the center of the solar system. Science has shown us that that is not true. If you wish to disagree with me perhaps you should disagree with something I actually said Yeah and so did some guy from Ur. So did science. Maybe 100 years from now they will look back on us with pity. Wondering how our present day scientist could have missed A, D, and G which would have showed us how things really are. Science and Religion have been wrong and might be in the future. You give the impression that science is never wrong. As though I can pick up a science book from any period and all the facts will be correct and current. Science is not infallible. And yeah I know you didn't say that it was. [8\|]

LafayetteLady -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/7/2010 11:52:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b What I want is for people like you to have a little faith that the majority of your fellow citizens are not crazy cult people. What I want is for people like you to have a little humility and realize that your notions of history and religion and science may not be the same as other peoples – which is their right. What I want is for people like you to respect those rights. quote: Have you even a little clue what it was like before there were public schools? Not relevant since I’m not calling for the abolition of public schools, merely the right for people to choose differently if the public school doesn’t meet their needs in terms of curriculum or ability to teach. I know this wasn't in response to me, but I feel the need to comment. The "majority" of our fellow citizens do NOT home school their children. The majority send their children to public or even private schools where there are certified teachers. Evangelical Christians (or "crazy cult people") have gotten that reputation because of some very outspoken members. Just so you know, the majority of Evangelical Christians also don't home school their children. At present the majority of people who DO home school their children do so for religious reasons. The proof of this is in the available home schooling text books, almost all of which cater to the religious home schooler. It is one thing for each individual to have a differing view on religion. Everyone's "notion" may not be the same. However, to include history and science in that is a bit off the mark. History that is taught in schools is the documented events of the past, not a "notion" or "belief" based on an individuals faith. This is regardless of the whack jobs who have repeatedly tried to claim that the holocaust never happened or the various theories on JFK's assignation. As for science, beyond evolutionary theory, the science that is taught in school is again based on documented facts, not "notions" or "opinions." The various sciences tell us factually how hurricanes or tornados develop, what causes other natural disasters, how plants grow, how the human body functions. It isn't a matter of "respecting" other people's rights. If someone were to be of the belief that a man has never gone into space, that is was all a big ruse for sweeps week, should we not correct them? The problem is not respecting people who believe that the curriculum taught in public schools doesn't "meet their needs." The problem arises as to whether or not the parents have the necessary skills and capability to teach their children in the subjects that are not religiously based. At some point, a parent needs to have faith not simply in God, but in their children. A parent needs to have the faith that they have taught their children the values that they wish for them to have and that those lessons have been strong enough that the children will uphold those values regardless of what others may say. Because THAT is so often the basis for home schooling. To "shield" the child from the realities of the world for as long as possible. The question that so many are asking is how will that child meet the challenges of the real world when they have had so little experience in it?

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/8/2010 7:59:44 AM)
quote: There is one huge problem with the idea that parents are the "primary deciders." It presumes that the parents are qualified to teach their children to begin with. No it does not. It presumes that parents are best qualified to decided who should teach their children, whether it be a public school, a private school, a tutor, or themselves. Are there going to be exceptions? Of course there are – but we have courts and a system of laws to deal with those cases. It also presumes that those parents who are qualified should not be hampered by the state simply because other parents aren’t qualified. quote: I'm not anti-religion. In fact, I'm probably one of the more religious people around here. But the fact is that a significant number of parents who are homeschooling their children simply aren't qualified to do so. It isn't fair to a child who is ready to learn calculus not learn it because his parents don't know it. When it comes to the most "basic" subjects, most parents can be fine. But really, how many parents can teach about dangling participles? How many get messed up by converting fractions? How many of those evangelical Christians have enough advanced learning in ALL subjects to make sure their kids get the very best education possible? The very best education as defined by you. quote: I understand and support parents who want their kids educations to have a religious "bend" to it. But you talk about "indoctrination." Do you think that a biology textbook that teaches Christianity is the only way, and anyone who disagrees is going to hell is NOT indoctrination? Or is it simply that a parent should be permitted to indoctrinate their children? As long as they aren’t teaching their kids to go out and smite the infidel I really don’t see the problem. Religious people have been around for a long, long time and will continue to be around for many years to come. quote: I'm never going to be one who says that public schooling is the best possible education for children in this country. We are educationally behind countries like Germany. That isn't simply my opinion, it is a indisputable fact. Given that fact, how can the family seeking asylum really be believed to be doing what they are doing in the best interest of their children? That little fact really makes it clear that the children's educational needs are not the primary interest of either the parents or the group helping them. Rather it is this group's method of furthering their own agenda and the parents simply wanting to do what they want. I really don’t care what the German family’s motivations are. As far as I’m concerned this is between them and the INS. quote: It is not unreasonable for people who are very religious to not want their children to learn about evolution and not creationism. But at some point those kids are going to grow up and leave their parents umbrella of protection and if not ever told about evolution are going to be in for quite a shock when the subject comes up. Yes they are. quote: You keep going on and on about "what ifs." What if some years from now, the "powers that be" want to teach that racism is good? The problem with that idea is that the people who believe that racism is good are typically the same people who are home schooling their children, first of all. Second of all, you are making the giant leap that society will move backwards as opposed to forwards, which is just silly. Your statement that the people who believe that racism is good are typically the same people who are home schooling their children is extremely bigoted. I have no idea which way society will move in the future. That’s the point. quote: Does it occur to you that those biology textbooks which teach that "Christianity is the ONLY way, and that all others are doomed to hell...." are teaching hate? People can hate all they want. As long as they don’t violate other people’s rights by turning that hate into action, they are within their rights. It is not about whether we approve of what people think or say. It is about whether we respect their rights, just as we expect our rights to be respected. quote: Do you realize that while your niece's parents wanted to teach their emotionally disabled child at home, and indeed the school does receive funding for their special needs child, that the school would also be required to provide her with an education that was at another school if they were unable to meet her needs? Another school would not have worked in my niece’s situation. quote: They also could be required to provide home tutoring. They balked at that notion too but we eventually forced them legally to provide two tutors to supplement what the rest of us were teaching her. quote: It has been pointed out to you that not all states regulate home schooling. That's pretty scary, don't you think? Yes I do. But as I said earlier, I’ll leave it up to the people of those states to deal with the problem. quote: Teachers need to be certified in order to teach out children. If parents want to home school their kids, why shouldn't they have to be able to meet certain requirements? It doesn't mean that they can't teach a religous based curriculum, it means they need to prove they have the necessary knowledge to teach the other subjects. Why is it that some of the churches that those people attend don't offer parochial schooling? Then their children would be taught those basic subjects by people who know what they are doing. Home schooling doesn’t automatically mean that only the parents will be the teachers. Tutors are available and most people usually have a wide circle of family, friends, and acquaintances to seek help from. quote: The problem is that while you want to believe that parents know best what their children's needs are, the reality is that the parents aren't always going to act in the children's best interest. They will become consumed by someone telling them they can't do what they want and fight for it not based on what's in their children's best interest, but simply because they are furious that someone else is telling them what to do. True, some parents are not going to act in the best interests of their children but – once again – we have courts to deal with them and it remains no reason to presume that all of them will do so. quote: It would seem that while you go on and on about the State "indoctrinating" our children, you fail to see that a well rounded education is what the State seeks children to have. Separation of church and state prevents schools from teaching anything based in religious beliefs, but I don't know of any church or religious sect that doesn't offer classes about their religious beliefs that are open to all members of that religion. It’s not just about religion. In fact, it’s not about religion at all. It is about recognition of the fact that one size does not fit all.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/8/2010 8:11:25 AM)
quote: The "majority" of our fellow citizens do NOT home school their children. The majority send their children to public or even private schools where there are certified teachers. This is true. Your point? quote: Evangelical Christians (or "crazy cult people") have gotten that reputation because of some very outspoken members. Just so you know, the majority of Evangelical Christians also don't home school their children. This is also true. Again… your point? quote: At present the majority of people who DO home school their children do so for religious reasons. The proof of this is in the available home schooling text books, almost all of which cater to the religious home schooler. Okay. So? quote: It is one thing for each individual to have a differing view on religion. Everyone's "notion" may not be the same. However, to include history and science in that is a bit off the mark. History that is taught in schools is the documented events of the past, not a "notion" or "belief" based on an individuals faith. This is regardless of the whack jobs who have repeatedly tried to claim that the holocaust never happened or the various theories on JFK's assignation. Events may have been documented but people hold different interpretations of those events. quote: As for science, beyond evolutionary theory, the science that is taught in school is again based on documented facts, not "notions" or "opinions." The various sciences tell us factually how hurricanes or tornados develop, what causes other natural disasters, how plants grow, how the human body functions. You noticed that, huh? quote: It isn't a matter of "respecting" other people's rights. If someone were to be of the belief that a man has never gone into space, that is was all a big ruse for sweeps week, should we not correct them? In a public forum or debate, sure. But what about when they are in private? Do we have the right to intrude on their privacy in order to "correct" them? quote: The problem is not respecting people who believe that the curriculum taught in public schools doesn't "meet their needs." The problem arises as to whether or not the parents have the necessary skills and capability to teach their children in the subjects that are not religiously based. I’ve already gone over this. quote: At some point, a parent needs to have faith not simply in God, but in their children. A parent needs to have the faith that they have taught their children the values that they wish for them to have and that those lessons have been strong enough that the children will uphold those values regardless of what others may say. I agree. quote: Because THAT is so often the basis for home schooling. To "shield" the child from the realities of the world for as long as possible. The question that so many are asking is how will that child meet the challenges of the real world when they have had so little experience in it? We’ll find out, won’t we?

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/9/2010 9:25:22 PM)
quote: What I want is for people like you to have a little faith that the majority of your fellow citizens are not crazy cult people. Do you think it is sane to believe that dinasours and people lived together? Do you think it is sane to believe that the sun revolves around the earth? Do you think it is sane to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old? I do not believe that the majority of my fellow citizens are crazy cult people but I do believe that those who believe the above are crazy cult people and have no business deciding ciricula for any school for normal people. quote: What I want is for people like you to have a little humility and realize that your notions of history and religion and science may not be the same as other peoples Religion is faith and cannot be discussed rationally. History and science on the other hand do not require faith only faithful study. I have never suggested that science or history is settled but I will say that when newer data replaces incomplete or incorrect data then it is ipso facto more true than what it replaced. If I failed to communicate that particular nuance to you then the fault lies in the translation. quote: – which is their right. What I want is for people like you to respect those rights I respect your right to be wrong. I do not agree that you have a right to inflict that on on children at taxpayers expense

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 8:30:55 AM)
quote: Do you think it is sane to believe that dinasours and people lived together? No, but that’s not relevant. quote: Do you think it is sane to believe that the sun revolves around the earth? No, but that’s not relevant. quote: Do you think it is sane to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old? No, but that’s not relevant. quote: I do not believe that the majority of my fellow citizens are crazy cult people but I do believe that those who believe the above are crazy cult people and have no business deciding ciricula for any school for normal people. I have not at any point advocated for the right of religious people to decide the curricula for other people’s children – only their own. quote: Religion is faith and cannot be discussed rationally. History and science on the other hand do not require faith only faithful study. I have never suggested that science or history is settled but I will say that when newer data replaces incomplete or incorrect data then it is ipso facto more true than what it replaced. Not relevant. quote: If I failed to communicate that particular nuance to you then the fault lies in the translation. I understand where you are coming from. I am simply rejecting it because your position is ethically wrong. quote: I respect your right to be wrong. I do not agree that you have a right to inflict that on on children at taxpayers expense I do not respect your right to oppress others simply because you dislike their view of the world. Every home schooler I’ve ever known or read about pays for the home schooling out of their own pocket in addition to paying school taxes. So the taxpayers are not loosing out (although they should, I see no reason why somebody should have to pay twice for education). It simply comes down to this: do you respect other people’s rights or not?

barelynangel -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 11:45:26 AM)
Okay does the current discussion have anything to do with the asylum seeking issue? Can someone quickly answer that for me as i have read a couple of the recent responses and i cannot determine if they are speaking regarding asylum and homeschooling here in the US or simply debating the concept of homeschooling here in the US. Thanks, angel

calamitysandra -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 11:52:26 AM)
The asylum issue has been on the sideline for some time now. (as has my last post) feels so ignored [;)]

DomKen -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 1:47:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra The asylum issue has been on the sideline for some time now. (as has my last post) feels so ignored [;)] Marc can't answer you. I've made the same point several times and he just responds that he believes in freedom, only for the parents though.

Termyn8or -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 5:03:13 PM)
FR I know why them people left Germany, and it wasn't to get their kids in our excelsior schools in the least. In case you hadn't noticed our test scores aren't all that great. They would have to be stupider than dirt to do so. They came because there is certain form of oppression there that is not here, yet. I'll give you three guesses what it is. That form of oppression was not acceptable to them when it came to teaching their young. I got two words for anyone who doesn't understand what I mean. Just ask. (and it's nothing nasty, you potty minds) T

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 6:14:15 PM)
quote: Okay does the current discussion have anything to do with the asylum seeking issue? Can someone quickly answer that for me as i have read a couple of the recent responses and i cannot determine if they are speaking regarding asylum and homeschooling here in the US or simply debating the concept of homeschooling here in the US. It is in the nature of conversation to drift.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 6:26:20 PM)
quote: Marc can't answer you. Answer what? I've just checked and she hasn't responded to any post I've made in this thread. quote: I've made the same point several times What point? quote: and he just responds that he believes in freedom And it is sad how many people don't. quote: only for the parents though. Wrong. I believe that parents have the right to be the primary (not sole) deciders on how best to educate their children. I do not discriminate against people just because I disagree with their religon. You wouldn't want people forcing your children to believe in things you don't - why can you not extend that same courtesy to others? You don't have to agree with what they are teaching their children, just respect their right to do so as they should respect your rights in return. Freedom and rights are meaningless if they don't apply to everybody.

DomKen -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 9:23:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: only for the parents though. Wrong. I believe that parents have the right to be the primary (not sole) deciders on how best to educate their children. I do not discriminate against people just because I disagree with their religon. You wouldn't want people forcing your children to believe in things you don't - why can you not extend that same courtesy to others? You don't have to agree with what they are teaching their children, just respect their right to do so as they should respect your rights in return. Freedom and rights are meaningless if they don't apply to everybody. Precisely the point I've made over and over, and the point Sandra made as well. Freedom and rights are meaningless if they don't apply to children. Parents do not own their children.

Termyn8or -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 11:08:22 PM)
"Parents do not own their children. " Do not go there. You'll find yourself at odds with about eighty million people, just in the US. T

blacksword404 -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/10/2010 11:28:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Precisely the point I've made over and over, and the point Sandra made as well. Freedom and rights are meaningless if they don't apply to children. Parents do not own their children. Children are free when they turn 18. You own what you create. In the case of children only somewhat. A trade-off for taking care of them. Otherwise people would just have children and turn them over to the state to raise and take care of.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/11/2010 6:21:56 AM)
quote: Precisely the point I've made over and over, and the point Sandra made as well. Freedom and rights are meaningless if they don't apply to children. Parents do not own their children. Which I have agreed with. Parents are however – unless they can be demonstrated to be abusive or neglectful – the primary authority over their children.

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