RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (Full Version)

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cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/13/2010 6:15:28 AM)
quote: religious quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Parents think people and dinasours lived at the same time. The state school says not so. Which do you want taught to the child I would like to see evolution taught to the child. But what I would like is not the point. The point is whether or not I am willing to violate somebody's religious rights in order to satisfy my notions of what is a proper education. I am not. I don't think this is a matter of religious rights at all, even though some people make it so. Religious rights does not include the right to be shielded from facts - and that dinosaurs predate humans by some 60 million years is a fact. Would you accept it if parents decide that their children should only learn addition and multiplication but not subtraction and division? There also is a major societal goal at stake here. Society offers public schools and requires parents to provide for children's education not just for the good of the children - but also for the good of society as a whole. And as long as we allow parents to arbitrarily omit major chunks of that education, the USA will remain a backwards country and lose out to countries such as China.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/13/2010 6:21:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Yes, everyone pays school taxes. Just because you don't own property, doesn't mean you aren't paying property taxes. The rent that you pay to your landlord, a portion is typically used to pay the taxes on the property. Sure it goes the long way around to get there, but it still gets there. A public school education is every child's right and provided for free. If someone chooses to home school their children, or send them to private school at their expense, they don't get to be absolved of the school tax, nor should they. They are making a choice. If you have food at home and decide to eat at a restaurant, are you paying twice for dinner? No, you made a choice. I wish that was true. One of the problems public schools have is that their funding and their more gifted students are both redirected to (usually) religious schools using voucher programs. Private schools thus have plenty of money AND are allowed to cherry-pick their students to make their test scores appear better.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/13/2010 4:45:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Yes, everyone pays school taxes. Just because you don't own property, doesn't mean you aren't paying property taxes. The rent that you pay to your landlord, a portion is typically used to pay the taxes on the property. Sure it goes the long way around to get there, but it still gets there. A public school education is every child's right and provided for free. If someone chooses to home school their children, or send them to private school at their expense, they don't get to be absolved of the school tax, nor should they. They are making a choice. If you have food at home and decide to eat at a restaurant, are you paying twice for dinner? No, you made a choice. I wish that was true. One of the problems public schools have is that their funding and their more gifted students are both redirected to (usually) religious schools using voucher programs. Private schools thus have plenty of money AND are allowed to cherry-pick their students to make their test scores appear better. Not all states have voucher programs. New Jersey, I know doesn't. Neither does I believe Pennsylvania. Florida doesn't have a voucher program, they have a choice system where schools within a certain area can be chosen, but it isn't a voucher program. While a lot of people don't have positive things to say about the Florida school system, one thing that the school choice system has definately caused is that each school needs to do their best to attract parents and students to their school. That means that they need to work harder to show that their school is a better choice than the next. Such a competition will make the schools better. Here in New Jersey, where such a program is only available under certain circumstances, the schools have the parents and students as a "captive" audience. If you live in that district, that is where you go to school. If you don't want to go to that school, then there is a tuition cost for private school.

blacksword404 -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/14/2010 12:02:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Not all states have voucher programs. New Jersey, I know doesn't. Neither does I believe Pennsylvania. Florida doesn't have a voucher program, they have a choice system where schools within a certain area can be chosen, but it isn't a voucher program. While a lot of people don't have positive things to say about the Florida school system, one thing that the school choice system has definately caused is that each school needs to do their best to attract parents and students to their school. That means that they need to work harder to show that their school is a better choice than the next. Such a competition will make the schools better. Here in New Jersey, where such a program is only available under certain circumstances, the schools have the parents and students as a "captive" audience. If you live in that district, that is where you go to school. If you don't want to go to that school, then there is a tuition cost for private school. I think this is a good way to do things. I know some years ago here in Georgia they had some schools mad because kids stayed in a schools jurisdiction but the parents would lie so their children could go to a better school. The school wanted to have the parents fined or jailed. But I don't think it ever happened. If your school sucks, then it sucks. Why should you have job securement. Your school gets paid whether your kids are learning or not. If you took the money the school gets paid per child and give the home schooled kids that amount for books, equipment and other stuff it would stretch farther than our bureaucratic school systems can.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/14/2010 5:58:36 AM)
quote: Yes, everyone pays school taxes. Just because you don't own property, doesn't mean you aren't paying property taxes. The rent that you pay to your landlord, a portion is typically used to pay the taxes on the property. Sure it goes the long way around to get there, but it still gets there. I’ve not disputed any of that. Just the opposite in fact. quote: A public school education is every child's right and provided for free. If someone chooses to home school their children, or send them to private school at their expense, they don't get to be absolved of the school tax, nor should they. They are making a choice. If you have food at home and decide to eat at a restaurant, are you paying twice for dinner? No, you made a choice. Public schools are not operated for free. They cost money and as you have just pointed out, one way or another everyone pays. Your food analogy is a poor one because the food at home is still eaten by the consumer. It is not an either/or situation. quote: Part of your property taxes will also be used in your municipality to keep the roads in good shape, to plow the snow away, etc. If you don't have a car, should you not have to pay? Since the roads are still used in the taxpayers service (walking, riding a bike, getting mail or emergency services delivered), obviously not. The two issues aren’t even related. quote: Not all towns have a yearly septic inspection. I know mine doesn't. I know this because I know that the septic is in violation. I'm a renter though, so it isn't my responsibility to fix it. I’m not really sure what your point here is. quote: You want to support a parent's right to not teach their child evolution. But where does the parent's right to decide stop? That is the question that you can't answer. 18 quote: What if they feel their child doesn't need to know math? Or Language Arts? Do they have the right to not teach their child History? Do they have the right to teach their child that World Wars one and two never really happened? What about space exploration? Do they have the right to decide they don't want their children to learn that? And exactly how often does this happen that it is such a huge societal problem? quote: You admitted several pages ago that when these children become adults and are suddenly confronted with these alternate theories, what a shock it will be. This certainly will go against the best interest of the children, yet you feel it is a parent's right to do so? That's bordering on neglect. If you want to say that a parent has the right to decide what their children learn or don't learn, then they can also decide NOT to educate their children as well. Somewhere there has to be a line in the sand of what is or is not right. No. I have not said that parents don’t have a right to not educate their children. I have said that parents have the right to be the primary deciders of what the bulk of that education should be. quote: The reality is that a parent who wants to home school their child specifically because of their disagreement with evolution is that they are afraid and not confident in their own ability as parents. They fear that if their children are presented with an alternate theory about the world, they might believe it. They don't have their children's best interest in mind at all. You know these people personally? quote: I actually once had a discussion with my mother, a devout born again Christian, about how the theory of evolution and creationism could mesh together. I wish I remembered her explanation, because it was a good one. Lots of people want to mesh the two together. If that’s what they want to do, then I’m okay with that too. quote: The point is we ALL want the best for our kids. We ALL want to shield them from the harsh realities of life for as long as we can. If someone wants to homeschool their children, and they have the necessary intelligent to do so and can prove it, they should be able to. My ex husband has an IQ of 74, had he wanted to home school our son, he obviously isn't capable of doing so properly. There are scores of other parents who are intellectually challenged just as much as him, but who want to home school their kids. It isn't in the best interest of the children. The best interest of the child supercedes the rights of the parents. The "best interest" is decided by the majority of society. The same majority of society that decides what should be legal or not legal. It's really that simple. Have you seen some of the things the “majority” has decided throughout history? Majority opinion is not all that it’s cracked up to be. In the end this is not about whether evolution is fact or not. It’s not about anyone’s interpretation of history. It’s about people living their lives according to their own conscience. It’s about we as a society having the wisdom to realize that you cannot micromanage other people’s beliefs. It’s about understanding that when you try to impose your version of truth on others you create resistance. I see a lot of people arguing on these boards that we should stop trying to impose our values on the Muslim world. If it is proper for us to leave them alone, why not our own people? If the beliefs and teachings of a particular group inhibit them from succeeding in the society then that is the consequences they must accept. It is up to them to examine their beliefs and adjust them accordingly if they so choose. We cannot do it for them.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/14/2010 6:03:10 AM)
quote: I don't think this is a matter of religious rights at all, even though some people make it so. Religious rights does not include the right to be shielded from facts - and that dinosaurs predate humans by some 60 million years is a fact. Whose facts? quote: Would you accept it if parents decide that their children should only learn addition and multiplication but not subtraction and division? This is nonsensical. As I pointed out in my previous post, how often does nonsense like this occur that it is such a huge societal problem? quote: There also is a major societal goal at stake here. Society offers public schools and requires parents to provide for children's education not just for the good of the children - but also for the good of society as a whole. And as long as we allow parents to arbitrarily omit major chunks of that education, the USA will remain a backwards country and lose out to countries such as China. “For the good of society!” The age old cry of the tyrant.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/14/2010 3:44:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: You want to support a parent's right to not teach their child evolution. But where does the parent's right to decide stop? That is the question that you can't answer. 18 You misunderstood. I said "where" not "when." Where do we draw the line. Parents want their children to learn creationism, not evolution. Ok. What about when they don't want them to learn other things or because the child is ready to move beyond the parent's capabilities, they don't learn further? Who draws the line? The parents? quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b No. I have not said that parents don’t have a right to not educate their children. I have said that parents have the right to be the primary deciders of what the bulk of that education should be. Evolution is in no way shape or form the "bulk" of a child's education. In reality, it is as small as a grain of sand. So parents are trying to decide the bulk of their kids' education, they want control over one issue, and whether capable or not are willing to take on the "bulk" of the education in order to control a grain of sand. I won't even bother with the remainder of your post. You have reached a point where you just want to continue to try to get your point across no matter how many times people disagree with you. I understand you believe you are the voice of reason in a world lacking reason. What you don't seem to realize is that the more you talk, the less everyone is listening. The more you go on, the less sense you make and you are only repeating the same things over and over and those are the very things people disagree with. In other words, perhaps it is time to learn how to cut your losses and move on.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/14/2010 7:55:06 PM)
quote: You misunderstood. I said "where" not "when." Where do we draw the line. Parents want their children to learn creationism, not evolution. Ok. What about when they don't want them to learn other things or because the child is ready to move beyond the parent's capabilities, they don't learn further? Who draws the line? The parents? You want me to draw a line that says this much science and that much history and so and so amount of math? That would go against the point I am arguing – that neither I nor you nor anyone else, is qualified to make these decisions for strangers. I have already said where I would draw the lines and see no reason to repeat that. quote: Evolution is in no way shape or form the "bulk" of a child's education. In reality, it is as small as a grain of sand. So parents are trying to decide the bulk of their kids' education, they want control over one issue, and whether capable or not are willing to take on the "bulk" of the education in order to control a grain of sand. I never said that Evolution forms the bulk of any education. Evolution versus Creationism is just one example of the myriad of religious, philosophical and secular views out there. I think the same rights should apply to all. quote: I won't even bother with the remainder of your post. You have reached a point where you just want to continue to try to get your point across no matter how many times people disagree with you. Yeah. You never see that in human discourse. quote: I understand you believe you are the voice of reason in a world lacking reason. I’m just a voice. quote: What you don't seem to realize is that the more you talk, the less everyone is listening. The more you go on, the less sense you make and you are only repeating the same things over and over and those are the very things people disagree with. In other words, perhaps it is time to learn how to cut your losses and move on. What loses? I do not see how people disagreeing with me is some sort of loss (cripes! there are over six billion people in the world, surely some of them are going to disagree with me). I was not aware that I was required to conform myself to the opinions of others.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 5:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady While a lot of people don't have positive things to say about the Florida school system, one thing that the school choice system has definately caused is that each school needs to do their best to attract parents and students to their school. That means that they need to work harder to show that their school is a better choice than the next. Such a competition will make the schools better. Here in New Jersey, where such a program is only available under certain circumstances, the schools have the parents and students as a "captive" audience. If you live in that district, that is where you go to school. If you don't want to go to that school, then there is a tuition cost for private school. I'm not familiar with the Florida situation, but it seems to me that the end result of such "competition" would be roughly the same as a voucher program: popular schools would be able to boost test scores by cherrypicking their students and, without actually providing better education starve those schools who need funding the most.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 7:46:56 AM)
quote: quote: I acknowledge that this tax is passed on to the consumer in most cases. You want to make that mean something else...Why? After all the battles we’ve had over taxes in the past, I just find it astounding that you finally acknowledge that all taxes are ultimately paid by the individual – whether directly, through state “fees” or through higher prices. I see you still have not mastered the art of reading. Twice I point out that some not all taxes are passed on and you want to make that ALL. Please learn to read.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 7:49:25 AM)
quote: So the corollary to your theory is that if the goverment were to remove all taxes from business then the price of all goods and services would go down by that amount? No. My corollary is that the market will set the prices but that with lower taxes and therefore higher profits businesses could afford to lower their prices in hopes of attracting customers away from the competition. When has this ever happened in the real world?

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 7:51:45 AM)
quote: You live here so you ipso facto have an implied contract with the government. You live in an apartment and pay rent...you go out of town for a few days you still pay rent on the apartment even when you are not using it. When I leave my apartment for a few days I am still using it – to keep all of my stuff in. So it is your position that if you had no "stuff" you would not still be obligated to pay rent?

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 7:58:03 AM)
quote: I see you still have not mastered the art of reading. Twice I point out that some not all taxes are passed on and you want to make that ALL. Please learn to read. Now you are just being a snide, nit-picking dickhead on purpose.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 7:58:44 AM)
As compared to what? To most private schools and most home schooling families that I know or have heard about. So you have no real evidence to present? Please show with some meaningful documentation that the public school system is somehow less effective than what it replaced. Oh waite it replaced nothing. So it would seem that you would prefer total ignorance to any thing that is now provided by the taxpayers?

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 8:06:02 AM)
quote: When has this ever happened in the real world? Frequently. Business often try to lure customers by having lower prices than the competition.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 8:08:06 AM)
quote: So it is your position that if you had no "stuff" you would not still be obligated to pay rent? This is nonsense. How many people with no material possesions rent apartments? Your analogy simply doesn't work. Deal with it.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 8:15:03 AM)
quote: So you have no real evidence to present? Please show with some meaningful documentation that the public school system is somehow less effective than what it replaced. Oh waite it replaced nothing. So it would seem that you would prefer total ignorance to any thing that is now provided by the taxpayers? This is your typical bullshit response to opinions and facts you don't like. Take something somebody said, twist into something else, and then present it as some sort of moral failing. Where have I ever said that the public school system is less effective than nothing at all? I have not (and you've got the fucking gall to tell me to learn how to read?).

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 8:51:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: So you have no real evidence to present? Please show with some meaningful documentation that the public school system is somehow less effective than what it replaced. Oh waite it replaced nothing. So it would seem that you would prefer total ignorance to any thing that is now provided by the taxpayers? This is your typical bullshit response to opinions and facts you don't like. Take something somebody said, twist into something else, and then present it as some sort of moral failing. Where have I ever said that the public school system is less effective than nothing at all? I have not (and you've got the fucking gall to tell me to learn how to read?). Your statement was: quote: there are many people who don’t use the public school systems. So why should they have to pay for something they are not using (and a pretty shoddy service at that)? Since before there were public schools there were only private schools that educated a single digit percentage of our population. The federal govt. instituted public schools. You claim that the public schools are doing a "pretty shoddy" job. I asked "as compared to what"...your answer was compared to home schools and private schools, yet you offer no evidence to substantiate this position. You also ignore that public schools were created not to replace private schools and home schooling but to fill a void. Thus the only comparison that makes sense is to compare public school to no public school.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 8:52:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: So it is your position that if you had no "stuff" you would not still be obligated to pay rent? This is nonsense. How many people with no material possesions rent apartments? Your analogy simply doesn't work. Deal with it. That you have possessions or not is a piece of bullshit you introduced into the equation. My premis is that if you rent an appartment and dont live in it you still owe the rent.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/15/2010 8:54:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: When has this ever happened in the real world? Frequently. Business often try to lure customers by having lower prices than the competition. Are these the same businesses that brought us the 13 oz. can of coffee. The 56 ounce half gallon of ice cream. Maybe that is the shit they teach in your home school but in the real world that is not the case.

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