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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/8/2010 5:24:26 PM   
Nslavu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tayr

So, I'm curious... what kinds of things do you D-types do that seem to work as really good positive reinforcement for the behavior that you want from your sub? What kinds of things do you do in order to reward your sub?




NONE!!! It's been my experience that rewarding appropriate behavior to be counter-productive to generating internalization of the behaviors that I desire from my slaves. I don't want them to behave appropriate to be rewarded ( that so ends up being the tail wagging the dog)... I want them to behave appropriate because it internally gratifies them to do them.

quote:

that so ends up being the tail wagging the dog


Maybe it's just me, but doesn't the dog's ass wag even without the tail. It's more of a spinal tap. lol Disengaging the tail, (or attempting to) to me, seems counter productive, even with the subtle difference between acknowledging and rewarding. Even more so if you don't know what the s finds rewarding, which really could be anything. It becomes somewhat self deluding to imply there is no symbiosis at all . It gets even more sticky when you think that this 'internal gratification' you want in them, is their reward. So now you have to stop giving them internal gratification otherwise the tail is once again wagging the ....


ruh-oh

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/8/2010 5:49:36 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

Hmmmm.... I have a carrot for you!

SLURP!


I like raw carrots.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/8/2010 5:50:46 PM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

quote:

Hmmmm.... I have a carrot for you!

SLURP!


I like raw carrots.


BOING!

*checks the distant from me to u*


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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/8/2010 5:50:53 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

I was thinking more

madame-s

but .... it's a hole lot of reward.


Ooooo! Very nice!

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<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/8/2010 6:01:16 PM   
catize


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quote:

The difference between "Rewarding" for specific behaviors and "Acknowledgement" of specific behaviors is subtle but significant in my world.


Nods in agreement. I very much like the distinction you make here, KoM!
I believe appreciation of both partners (to and from) is imperative. But if I only submit because I'm going to get 'paid' for it, it isn't internally driven. And all too soon he would stop writing the checks!

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(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/8/2010 6:09:23 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

BOING!

*checks the distant from me to u*


Now, I'm blushing. Very cute.

_____________________________

<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 3:51:17 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		.positive reinforcement is about finding something positive to say IMO - for instance, someone is late to a restaurant/bar/ whatever but they look great - what would be totally horny for me in that situation would be a glance at his watch with a slightly raised eyebrow, tapping my ass to remind me whose boss whilst whispering in my ear that i look great and hes gonna fuck my brains out later!

now if a person is always late then thats going to be annoying, but if not then its reasonable to assume that something got in the way of their timekeeping.

sometimes it isnt all about thinking 'shes late now im gonna have to take her to task' (for instance) sometimes a bit of 'out of the box' thinking and a bit of lateral thinking puts a skip in our step and a little smile on our lips.

to connect this to Tayr's other thread, about the little things that need to be dealt with, but that maybe dont matter that much, this would be a forinstance -

such a tactic would actually work great with a SAM or brat type who always turns up late (or some other annoying habit thats really getting on youre tits) in the hope of earning a spanking.

and for the sub thats likely to turn herself inside out and maybe even crash the car rather than be late its that gentle, playful response thatll melt her heart and want to give you an extra good blow job later.

i know im telling fish how to swim, but to be honest, its amazing how little 'out of the box' thinking occurs sometimes.

rigidity to rules, fear of being seen to be weak or not in authority sometimes gets in the way, i think. 


< Message edited by lally2 -- 3/9/2010 3:58:11 AM >

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 5:07:32 AM   
wisdomtogive


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Joined: 11/13/2009
Status: offline 		Personally, I would find it very awkward to have Sir give me positive reinforcement and reward  for my actions. I honestly do not understand why there would be a need for it. A simple thank you is fine with me, if he chooses. It is more in how i feel satisfied in doing something not what i am going to get from Sir.

Perhaps this though is more because I do not see myself as a little girl or a pet, just someone who desires to please without recognition of it. I am just drawing at straws, since I really don't understand this. Please do know because I do not relate to it, doesn't mean I am putting anyone else down who does this..

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 5:44:37 AM   
PrimalConsonance


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Joined: 7/11/2009
From: Southern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tayr

So, I'm curious... what kinds of things do you D-types do that seem to work as really good positive reinforcement for the behavior that you want from your sub? What kinds of things do you do in order to reward your sub?

And a question for you s-types... what things work for re-enforcing expected and desired behavior out of you? What kinds of rewards really make you feel special and rewarded?

Obviously, the answers to these questions are largely dependent upon what is trying to be accomplished. But does anybody have any really original, interesting, or highly effective ideas they'd like to share?



A substantial portion of what I say and do could be regarded as positive reinforcement, and reward really isn't an issue but it all happens in a subtle way.  I have nothing specific really, but it's in how I treat my submissive when we are together.  I'm proud of her and cherish her, so I feel the desire to relate those feelings through my behavior.  Touch and attention I do and show (bordering on more than she's used to, but is the way I am; so she's adjusting), and I'm genuinely interested in what she thinks and the things she does for me when we are together or when she is alone.  A lot of affection between us and so the desire to serve and please is constantly there, as well as my desires over her.  So what is there to reinforce, when it is always there? 

We have our moments when I need to exercise control and those are welcomed as much as the outward affection between us.  A lack of negative behavior really negates the need for reinforcement, although conditioning is evident.  But conditioning is not just for the submissive as some would like to believe...Dominants are also undergoing conditioning (a more subtle term might be evolving or growing for both the submissive and the dominant really).  An example of this sort of conditioning would be what really happens at Petsmart when an owner takes their pet into an obedience class:  Who is actually being trained?  The pet?  No, the owner, who is learning how to interact and facilitate how to treat and get the best results from their beloved pet.  The relationship is enhanced by better communication and understanding.  This is a rough example, but similar in content.      


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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 6:59:26 AM   
Tayr


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Joined: 6/29/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		One of the things that I've done in the past with my last sub was simply give more attention. Sometimes it was subtle and other times, more overt. For example, she was responsiblefor making us dinner every night, so our normal evening routine would have her downstairs making dinner, while I was upstairs getting some stuff done on the computer. If I felt like she had pleased me about something or other, then on some evening I might skip doing things on the computer and instead come downstairs and just hang out and chat with her while she made dinner. She always really enjoyed that. It was something that was very subtle, but had tremendous positive effects.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 7:17:50 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
It's been my experience that rewarding appropriate behavior to be counter-productive to generating internalization of the behaviors that I desire from my slaves. I don't want them to behave appropriate to be rewarded ( that so ends up being the tail wagging the dog)... I want them to behave appropriate because it internally gratifies them to do them.



Internalizing behavior is so way past this discussion but the initial shaping of behavior requires reinforcement. There is extensive literature on the effect of reinforcement on internalizing behavior which explains why punishment works in a very narrow band of minor intensity and most of it is done through positive reinforcement. Then once internalized...it becomes self gratifying to do the desired behavior.

But that is way past the level of discussion here

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 7:19:08 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I cannot think of anything more inane or manipulative than postive reinforcement and reward done purposefully.

the.dark.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 7:35:52 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		None of my relationships have had a quid pro quo form of reward, whether I was Dominant, submissive, slave, or in an egalitarian kinky relationship. I think that the whole idea of "do x, get y" can set up a rather poor headspace. On the other hand, the whole reason I became his slave in the first place is that I *want* to please him, so if he didn't let me know that he was happy with my behaviour, I'd probably get pretty discouraged. This is particularly true of the things he hasn't ordered me to do, that have been difficult physically or because I was scared due to a past experience. Sometimes it doesn't go as well as I'd hoped the first few times, but getting some praise for trying, and reassurance that he was more focused on my putting the effort in than on the results really helped. Also, for things like housework, it's nice getting the occasional smack or grab while I'm doing it, not as a reward, just "random acts of sadism" that let me know he's thinking of me. It's also very easy to associate them, so the housework becomes more "yummy" in itself, as well as my feeling useful.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 7:38:20 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

I cannot think of anything more inane or manipulative than postive reinforcement and reward done purposefully.

the.dark.


No, much better to do it randomly and without purpose!

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 7:39:37 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		You can save alot of heartache if you do it not at all.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 7:42:19 AM   
Andalusite


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Status: offline 		SM, actually, there are studies that intermittent reward *does* tend to shape a desired behaviour more effectively than giving a reward every time.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 8:01:47 AM   
HisEvelyn


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Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline 		Another vote here for the magic words "Good girl".

As for the other thread of debate going on in this thread? I personally do not submit for the purpose of being rewarded, but being acknowledged when I'm doing well helps my self esteem greatly. And lets me know I am on the right track. I am still learning how to please my Master, so when he tells me I'm a good girl, I use it more as a learning tool that just happens to make me feel fantastic.

Once I am much more in tune with his needs and desires? I would still need that acknowledgement, though likely to a lesser degree. Maybe that makes me weak somehow, maybe it makes me prey to past trauma I have endured. But after spending most of my life being ignored and taken for granted? It is wonderful to have a Master who appreciates my efforts and my enthusiasm. Without any acknowledgement that I am pleasing to him, I would become frustrated. He doesn't need to fawn all over me, but a 'good girl' every now and again works wonders.

I do applaud anyone out there who is a strong enough person to not need the slightest input from anyone else for their sense of self-worth. That is positively amazing and admirable. Kudos! :)

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 8:20:55 AM   
Andalusite


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Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Actually, if someone was so exclusively inwardly driven/motivated that they didn't want or need any praise or encouragement, I personally wouldn't want them as a submissive. I'd feel they were submitting to their ideal, somehow, and that it had little to do with me as an individual person. I'd pretty much toss them in with the female supremacy "goddess" folks who objectify all Dommes, and don't care who dominates them, as long as they're hot and female.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 8:28:43 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

I cannot think of anything more inane or manipulative than postive reinforcement and reward done purposefully.

the.dark.


No, much better to do it randomly and without purpose!


Depends what you mean by 'purpose'.
The OP asked for rewards that make me feel special.  I am his, what else could make me glow any brighter?  I don't dig getting into a relationship where I need or want to be told 'good girl'  - because I did and do whats expected anyway.  If I make Master happy, reinforcement is an ongoing thing within our relationship anyway, not some random 'well done' pat on the head to make me realise or feel he's noticed.  He notices anyway and I know that and trust that, I don't need to be reassured every single time.  We don't have a punishment dynamic either.  To us it's boring and timewasting.  Good, clear communication rocks as an effective way of getting something done that he wants done, his way.   If Master has to make me feel groovy by formulating some little sentance or reward, then to me, that's manipulating.

When we 'reinforce' whatever emotion we are feeling to each other, he expects done spontaneously and because of love.  Not just for a feelgood factor.

the.dark.

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RE: Positive reinforcement and reward - 3/9/2010 8:39:18 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisEvelyn
I do applaud anyone out there who is a strong enough person to not need the slightest input from anyone else for their sense of self-worth. That is positively amazing and admirable. Kudos! :)


I'm not sure it's about having self worth means you don't need postive input.  I would suggest that most human beings work well with it, but it's more about how you seperate genuine reinforcement with 'reinforcement just for the sake of'.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread at all until the OP mentioned the whole spending time with his sub thing whilst cooking dinner.  It was just so cliche for me and left me gagging with the whole 'if I felt she'd pleased me' caveat.  But that's just me.

the.dark.

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