Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (Full Version)

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stella41b -> Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 1:47:17 PM)

Dog owners facing tough new regulations

People with dogs could be required to insure themselves against the risk of their pet attacking someone.

Dog owners could be made to insure against attacks

Government proposals suggest forcing every dog owner to take out third party insurance and to have their dog microchipped.

Ministers are also considering introducing New Dog Control Notices for misbehaving animals.

The "Dogbo" orders would allow police officers and council officials to force miscreant owners to muzzle, leash or even neuter their pets. In extreme cases the dogs could even be confiscated and given to new owners.

The measures, part of proposed changes to the Dangerous Dogs Act, are aimed at tackling the growing problem of vicious animals being bred for use as weapons.

Ministers are also considering making it a criminal offence for a dog owner to allow their animal to be "dangerously out of control". Currently they are only breaking the law if the dog is out of control in a public place.

source: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100309/tuk-dog-owners-facing-tough-new-regulati-dba1618.html




Smutmonger -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 1:54:29 PM)

I wish they would do this in the US. I'm really tired of irresponsible dog owners letting thier dogs loose-taking them on "walks" as a flimsy excuse to foul the properties of others-instead of their own. Ans stories of people being mauled by these creatures.




LadyEllen -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 2:14:19 PM)

Well the Dangerous Dogs Act was reportedly just about the worst piece of legislation ever passed in recent times - another knee-jerk reaction to tabloid reporting and the uneducated, emotionally ruled general public they cater to and manipulate.

In theory the new regulations are a good idea - but again, as with firearms, it will only be the law abiding who comply. The Chav on the housing estate, who has his dog as a weapon and status symbol will not comply, and the idiots who engage in dog fighting will not comply. The advantage of the new regulations is that (presumably) it will be a lot easier to detect dogs that are not chipped with a simple sweep of the animal, and the combination of chip ID and (one would hope) related insurance records (as are in place for cars) will show immediately any dog that is not insured too. Without strong penalties though, one questions the value of it all; the penalties doled out for mistreating animals as things stand are far too low.

But really this is only more symptom management in my view - though limiting and preventing dog incidents and dog fighting shall be strengthened one would hope - the real problem is that people feel a need to have dogs as weapons and the desire to take part in dog fighting, which I feel are part and parcel of a wider social malaise afflicting us wherein the politicians are not helping but rather doing nothing or making things worse.

E




RCdc -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 2:21:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

In theory the new regulations are a good idea - but again, as with firearms, it will only be the law abiding who comply. The Chav on the housing estate, who has his dog as a weapon and status symbol will not comply, and the idiots who engage in dog fighting will not comply. The advantage of the new regulations is that (presumably) it will be a lot easier to detect dogs that are not chipped with a simple sweep of the animal, and the combination of chip ID and (one would hope) related insurance records (as are in place for cars) will show immediately any dog that is not insured too. Without strong penalties though, one questions the value of it all; the penalties doled out for mistreating animals as things stand are far too low.

E


The difference between a gun and a dog is that our four legged friend is more likely to be visable as you indicate.  I believe that strong penalties would be the key here to make this work, but I doubt any government has the stomach to stand up and dish that out.

the.dark.




DomImus -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 2:50:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
I wish they would do this in the US.


Just one more evil insurance giant for PrezBo to go after.







Lucylastic -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 3:32:11 PM)

Think it would be much easier if they just muzzled or neutered the bad owners at the same time




pahunkboy -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 3:57:11 PM)

so-  that is close to chipping a human.  follow the chip on the dog and much of the time it is near the owner.




WyldHrt -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/9/2010 11:26:52 PM)

quote:

Think it would be much easier if they just muzzled or neutered the bad owners at the same time

Pretty please?

I used to own an American Pit Bull Terrier and was very active in rescue work with abandoned and abused pit bulls... and I'm here to tell y'all that the dogs aren't the problem. The problem is useless, lazy owners who refuse to train their animals; criminals who see a living, breathing creature as a weapon; and idiots who get a dog without bothering to learn the first thing about the specific needs of its breed. Don't even get me started on those who think it's "cool" to get a dog and chain it up in the yard. *Grrrrrrrr*

I worked with many, many rescue dogs, and most of their issues came down to crappy ownership. While some were beyond saving due to behavioral issues or defects due to overbreeding and poor temperament, most of them came around very quickly once they realized that they were in a safe place, with people who met their needs and expected good behavior in return.

All that said, requiring insurance isn't going to do a damned thing to make owners more responsible for their pets, and will simply up the premiums for those who already carry said insurance. I had $100,000 liability on each of my dogs, not because they were dangerous (they both earned CGC certs and passed their temperament and obedience tests with flying colors), but because people here are sue-happy, and I had no desire to lose my home over some fabricated allegation. Had that insurance been required by law, I probably couldn't have afforded it.

If these lawmakers want to actually do something about dangerous dogs, it needs to start with limiting breeding to those who know what the hell they are doing (and can prove it) and requiring owners to be educated before acquiring a dog in the first place. Anything else is just taking advantage of public outrage to generate revenue, and such things sicken me.

As an aside, and I don't mean to be snotty; I always found it rather humorous that American Pit Bull Terriers are banned in the UK as dangerous (last I checked), but Staffordshire Bull Terriers are still considered a "nanny" dog, suitable for children. Those experienced with both breeds know that their temperaments are pretty much identical, as they are so closely related as to be nearly the same breed. More proof that those making the laws know not of what they legislate.







LafayetteLady -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 12:07:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

All that said, requiring insurance isn't going to do a damned thing to make owners more responsible for their pets, and will simply up the premiums for those who already carry said insurance. I had $100,000 liability on each of my dogs, not because they were dangerous (they both earned CGC certs and passed their temperament and obedience tests with flying colors), but because people here are sue-happy, and I had no desire to lose my home over some fabricated allegation. Had that insurance been required by law, I probably couldn't have afforded it.


I agree totally. My cousin has pit bulls (both American and Staffordshire) and they are great dogs. I do admit that the larger one, Cheyenne, has made me nervous when I was face to face to her, but that is based more on the fact that her head seems to be the size of a large lion's and has no basis in her temperment. I would be equally nervous with any animal that had such a huge head. I also had a friend who had two pit bulls and both of them were also big gushes. In fact the larger one thought he was a 90 pound lap dog.

While I don't disbelieve you, I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to afford the insurance if it had been required by law? Do you believe it would have been cost prohibitive in that case?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
If these lawmakers want to actually do something about dangerous dogs, it needs to start with limiting breeding to those who know what the hell they are doing (and can prove it) and requiring owners to be educated before acquiring a dog in the first place. Anything else is just taking advantage of public outrage to generate revenue, and such things sicken me.


I agree that the random breeding is a problem, but it is also something that would be difficult if not nearly impossible to control. My neighbor breeds her dogs, they are pug and something else that she sells as "designer breeds," which you and I both know is the new fancy name for "mutt."

Some education on training a dog would be nice, but those types of things can end up being expensive and again, I believe would cause a problem. For the more difficult breeds that require more specialized behavior, such as the bull terrier breeds which don't respond to a lot of the "normal" training methods, I think making it a requirement before purchase would be great. However, it is another thing that would be extremely difficult to regulate. Sadly, the people who aren't going to properly train their dogs, or want them for fighting are also not likely to go to reputable breeders in seek of their animals anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
As an aside, and I don't mean to be snotty; I always found it rather humorous that American Pit Bull Terriers are banned in the UK as dangerous (last I checked), but Staffordshire Bull Terriers are still considered a "nanny" dog, suitable for children. Those experienced with both breeds know that their temperaments are pretty much identical, as they are so closely related as to be nearly the same breed. More proof that those making the laws know not of what they legislate.


This is so true. I don't know exactly how things are done in the UK, but I do know (as do you, I'm sure) that here in the US, the legislators react to the people screaming the loudest and people scream about pit bulls. Many municipalities in New Jersey have regulations regarding specific breeds (pit bulls, akitas, dobermans, chows to name a few) such as fencing and muzzling when walking on public streets. Also there are insurance companies that either won't insure people with certain dogs or the rates are significantly increased.









myotherself -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 12:25:57 AM)

I actually don't think it's a bad idea at all! I have 2 dogs (small terrier types) and both are microchipped and I made sure my household insurance also carried 3rd party cover for my dogs. If I plan to travel in Europe and take my dogs with me, it is a legal requirement that they be chipped. But to be honest, I did it so that if my dogs were to be stolen, hopefully they could be traced back to me.

Neither of these is expensive. It cost £25 each to chip the dogs, and the extra on my insurance adds about £20 a year.

And just to clarify about the microchips, PA - they are passive devices, designed to be read by a scanner (in much the same way as a store security tag). They are not active (powered) - they cannot be triggered and 'traced' in a GPS-like way. You have to be within inches of the device to read it, so no need for tin-foil dog coats just yet...[8|]




LafayetteLady -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 12:32:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

I actually don't think it's a bad idea at all! I have 2 dogs (small terrier types) and both are microchipped and I made sure my household insurance also carried 3rd party cover for my dogs. If I plan to travel in Europe and take my dogs with me, it is a legal requirement that they be chipped. But to be honest, I did it so that if my dogs were to be stolen, hopefully they could be traced back to me.

Neither of these is expensive. It cost £25 each to chip the dogs, and the extra on my insurance adds about £20 a year.

And just to clarify about the microchips, PA - they are passive devices, designed to be read by a scanner (in much the same way as a store security tag). They are not active (powered) - they cannot be triggered and 'traced' in a GPS-like way. You have to be within inches of the device to read it, so no need for tin-foil dog coats just yet...[8|]



I didn't mention the chips at all. I think they are great, specifically for instances when your pet may be lost.




WyldHrt -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 1:11:56 AM)

quote:

I would be equally nervous with any animal that had such a huge head. I also had a friend who had two pit bulls and both of them were also big gushes. In fact the larger one thought he was a 90 pound lap dog.

Yup, well owned pits are usually lap dogs with huge heads, LOL. My RottX was 90lbs, bowling ball sized head, and a complete mush as well! My brother was an avowed pit bull/ rottie/ big dog hater until he saw how gentle my kids were with his young sons. The look on his face when he found his sons curled up in a "puppy pile" on the couch cushions, being snuggled/ protected by my "viscious" dogs was completely priceless.
quote:

While I don't disbelieve you, I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to afford the insurance if it had been required by law? Do you believe it would have been cost prohibitive in that case?

Yes, I do. When insurance is required instead of voluntary, the price goes up. Make it a requirement, and the insurance companies know that it isn't just the responsible people looking to be insured. The responsible owners then shoulder the burden for the rest, in the form of increased premiums.
quote:

I agree that the random breeding is a problem, but it is also something that would be difficult if not nearly impossible to control. My neighbor breeds her dogs, they are pug and something else that she sells as "designer breeds," which you and I both know is the new fancy name for "mutt."

Ugh, don't even get me started on "designer" breeds! There are ways to get a handle on backyard breeders, but TPTB won't step up and deal with it. Better to target responsible owners and look like they are "doing something" than address the root of the problem.
quote:

Some education on training a dog would be nice, but those types of things can end up being expensive and again, I believe would cause a problem.

Not if the classes were state sanctioned and offered at a nominal cost for those unable to find a qualified private group.
quote:

For the more difficult breeds that require more specialized behavior, such as the bull terrier breeds which don't respond to a lot of the "normal" training methods, I think making it a requirement before purchase would be great.

Not to nitpick, but the bull breeds respond just fine to "normal" training methods. If anything, they need more positive reinforcement and less correction due to their sensitivity. That is actually why breed education is important.
quote:

However, it is another thing that would be extremely difficult to regulate. Sadly, the people who aren't going to properly train their dogs, or want them for fighting are also not likely to go to reputable breeders in seek of their animals anyway.

Totally agree with this.
quote:

This is so true. I don't know exactly how things are done in the UK, but I do know (as do you, I'm sure) that here in the US, the legislators react to the people screaming the loudest and people scream about pit bulls. Many municipalities in New Jersey have regulations regarding specific breeds (pit bulls, akitas, dobermans, chows to name a few) such as fencing and muzzling when walking on public streets. Also there are insurance companies that either won't insure people with certain dogs or the rates are significantly increased.

Oooh, you don't want to get me started on BSL, fencing, muzzling, etc.... unless you have a few weeks to hear me bitch to high hell about the massive amount of supidity involved. Trust me, you do not want to go there! [;)]










LafayetteLady -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 1:23:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Not to nitpick, but the bull breeds respond just fine to "normal" training methods. If anything, they need more positive reinforcement and less correction due to their sensitivity. That is actually why breed education is important.


The positive reinforcement issue was exactly what I was referring to.

As to the insurance issue, what you said makes complete sense. It would be wonderful if there were training classes available that were more affordable for everyone. I know a lot of people who would love to take their dogs through training classes, but the price just makes it too difficult.

Sadly, with all the things going on in the world right now, legislation on pet ownership and safety really should be down pretty far on the list.




LaTigresse -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 3:44:19 AM)

I think it is a fabulous idea.

Most people that have dogs and own homes are already insured. I know it is part of my home owners policy. Also, most of the shelters here micro chip the dogs that are adopted. It is yet another benifit of adopting a rescue dog.

Personally I would also like to see mandatory spaying and neutering with those that don't having to pay a large sum to be licensed as a breeder. I would also like to see limits on number of animals in a house, more wide spread.

If people cannot train a dog properly, they probably should not have the dog.

As far as certain breeds being more dangerous........yes I do believe there are some breeds more likely to be aggressive based upon what that breed was created to do. The Presa Canario is an example. And those breeds really should be handled by very specific people. The pit, if bred well, is definitely not one. I trust my son's pit and my daughter's GSD around the grandkids WAYYYYYY more than I trust a certain 12# red diva dog. And I know a black lab that is far more aggressive and bitey than any pit I have ever met.




pahunkboy -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 3:46:40 AM)

LAT,   do you think ppl should be chipped?




LaTigresse -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 4:01:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

LAT,   do you think ppl should be chipped?


If they consent.........and I have known a few elderly, and children, that I heartily wish I could have.




Musicmystery -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 7:48:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

LAT,   do you think ppl should be chipped?


They already are. If you carry a cell phone, law enforcement can track your every move.




LaTigresse -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 7:57:58 AM)

Yes, I saw on television where a murder victim's body had been found by her cell phone. Was a sad story but, at least the family had the closure rather than hoping forever she would return.




Musicmystery -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 8:01:27 AM)

Cell companies get so many requests that they've set up a web site for law enforcement, used literally millions of times a year.

More commonly than finding victims, it's used as evidence of a perpetrator's movements in court.




Smutmonger -> RE: Tougher measures introduced for dog owners (3/10/2010 8:02:25 AM)

I refuse to use a cell phone,it's like being on a leash.




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