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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/11/2010 9:51:01 PM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		Well, OP, I'm not going to slam you.

If your wife has had two kids pretty close together, not only is she tired as hell, but she is "touched out".  The last thing she wants is more skin contact. Which sucks for you.

I recommend regular babysitters and regular date nights to just spend time together. Not necessarily "romantic"...though what is romantic varies. My husband brought me home blood oranges and a theology book and I was thrilled, lol.  But definitely non-pressured, and time where no one wants her to do anything she doesn't want to do right then.



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"If only he....." - 3/12/2010 7:30:52 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The more you make her happy, the more inclined she should be to make you happy. (And if she's not, then you've got serious compatibility issues.) Focus on the sensual - in your case it could be as simple as making sure your wife has had a good night's sleep.


For years, whenever I printed a letter from a guy who wasn't getting any, or wasn't getting much, mail would pour in from women insisting that he had to be doing something wrong.

I called them the "if only" letters: If only she didn't have to do all the housework, she'd want to have sex. If only he would talk with her about her day, she'd want to have sex. If only she weren't so exhausted from taking care of the kids, she'd want to have sex. If only he didn't ask for sex, she'd want to have sex. Well now, thanks to Sewell, straight guys everywhere know that it doesn't matter how much housework you do, how sincerely interested you are in her day, or how much of the child care you take on: she still won't want to fuck you. So leave the dishes in the sink, grab a beer, and go play a video game, guys. Your "if only" nightmares are over.

According to a friend of mine who loves cavorting with Married Men in secret affairs, the single greatest driver for these men to seek action outside of their marriages is the wife losing interest in sex combined with a strong interest in her children (in some cases one might say a superseding interest.)

I pretty much agree with Dan Savage's article, when he says:

One thing that hasn't changed in the wake of Sewell's book is my advice to women with low libidos. You can have strict monogamy or you can have a low libido, ladies, but you can't have both. If monogamy is a priority, you're gonna have to put out. If all you wanna do is sit there and eat chocolate, you're gonna have to turn a blind eye to lap dances and mistresses and happy endings and the return of trade (i.e., gay guys giving NSA head to straight guys).




< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/12/2010 7:40:55 AM >

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RE: "If only he....." - 3/12/2010 7:37:38 AM   
cloudboy


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Deleted.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/12/2010 7:39:05 AM >

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 9:13:42 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady

This is a prime example why I preach to not jump into relationships. This guy married a woman, had kids and didn't realize this was coming? I don't mean to sound like a bitch here but why did he marry her THEN have kids if he knew there was this huge valley between them that he would struggle with? Now he's on an internet site trying to deal with it? And for what it's worth, I do not believe your wife knows your on here nor does she know you are, as you claim, active in the fetish community. I say I do not believe you because no vanilla woman would be ok with her husband having a profile on the internet looking for encounters. You have fewer options now and should know your life stopped being your own when those kids came along. Your real options? Divorce your wife and have the life you want but be a good Dad. Delete the profile and stop trying to hook up and live with your choices.


Maybe the problem isn't him or "poor judgment" but our traditional views of marriage.

---------

Parents, teachers, and concerned adults all counsel against premature marriage. But they rarely speak the truth about marriage as it really is in modern middle class America. The truth as I see it is that contemporary marriage is a wretched institution. It spells the end of voluntary affection, of love freely given and joyously received. Beautiful romances are transmuted into dull marriages, and eventually the relationship becomes constricting, corrosive, grinding, and destructive. The beautiful love affair becomes a bitter contract.

The basic reason for this sad state of affairs is that marriage was not designed to bear the burdens now being asked of it by the urban American middle class. It is an institution that evolved over centuries to meet some very specific functional needs of a non industrial society. Romantic love was viewed as tragic, or merely irrelevant. Today it is the titillating prelude to domestic tragedy, or, perhaps more frequently, to domestic grotesqueries that are only pathetic.

Marriage was not designed as a mechanism for providing friendship, erotic experience, romantic love, personal fulfillment, continuous lay psychotherapy, or recreation. The Western European family was not designed to carry a lifelong load of highly emotional romantic freight. Given its present structure, it simply has to fail when asked to do so. The very idea of an irrevocable contract obligating the parties concerned to a lifetime of romantic effort is utterly absurd.

Mervyn Cadwallader
Writing in THE ATLANTIC, 1966

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 9:24:17 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

I think saying he either get a divorce or be unhappy is a pretty pessimistic view. It isn't about "changing." They obviously have been working in some way together to be married for 10 years and now have two children. What I do think is that the OP has gone about getting his wife interested in all the wrong ways. Going to play parties and dungeons, in my opinion, presented this all to her in a very overwhelming fashion. Introducing little things within the privacy of their own bedroom would give her an opportunity to learn and get comfortable. Not everyone is into the public scenes, his wife may be one of those people. Saying she is a "repressed Catholic" also leads me to believe that she would be more receptive privately rather than publicly.

She has indulged him in the past. I honestly don't believe she did so and hated what she was doing. I believe it is more a matter of her needing to be "in the mood" to play. With a toddler and a three month old baby, being in the mood isn't happening.

On a side note, I'm always amazed at how easily people will suggest ending relationships or state that the relationship is doomed. And these are usually the same people who will state that they feel a BDSM relationship is more committed and more serious than marriage. At the rate that the suggestion "to move on" is made, I fail to see where a BDSM relationship would be more serious or more committed.


Divorce is not an option, at least according to "older views" of the matter: (Don't tell this to Karl Rove....)

2384. "Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another's husband to herself. [St. Basil, Moralia 73, 1: PG 31, 849-852.]"

----------

And another view:

"Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society."

Pencil me into the minority view that its better to cheat and stay married in certain instances.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/12/2010 9:27:25 AM >

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 9:40:24 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		The "Western European Family" is a very long and big tale which predates Christianity in the main. It was not "designed", it came into being.
I could, here, begin a lengthy argument based on the tribal, non Christian origins and so forth, but will instead simply say that your quote is only really related in modern US American terms.
It misses the point that upon becoming "married" (and for better or worse) a couple is actually adopting each other, first and foremost, as next if kin.

Pirate

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 9:41:29 AM   
TermsConditions


Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline 		This is a quick, lazy reply; basically what i want to say and it might be related to your question.

i was in the exact same spot ~ 2 years ago when i joined CM. within 48 hours i received the best most true advice: decide what you want and what you are willing to give up to get it.

long story short, i told my wife that she could be married to me or married to our children and that i was going to start having a wonderful, intimate relationship with lots of fantastic sex and i would like it to be with her. after many, many, many tearful arguments and conversations we are much more intimate and are having fantastic sex and even beginning to talk about D/s.

i just finished reading a book "remodelling motherhood" (approx title) and it describes exactly how my wife and i got in the spot we were in. it might be a good place to start.

fix your nilla relationship first because D/s requires honest, uninhibited communication and absolute trust. it's also a hell of a lot of work, probably more for the D than the s.


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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 9:49:27 AM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Here's what I think, for whatever its worth. You are married and you have kids. You can live without kink (many will disagree). What is irresolvable, IMHO, is when someone is clearly dominant or submissive, and wants a D/s relationship, while the other partner does not. You sound like a bedroom dominant, a "top". If all you want is bedroom kink, introduce things slowly, like blindfolds or tying her wrists. Kink is what we do. D/s is who we are.

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 1:59:16 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

You don't think our advice was a way forward? As we see it, he now has two choices: 1. Get a divorce and pursue his hearts desire, or 2. Accept his choices and live unhappily ever after.

...


I think saying he either get a divorce or be unhappy is a pretty pessimistic view...

...On a side note, I'm always amazed at how easily people will suggest ending relationships or state that the relationship is doomed. And these are usually the same people who will state that they feel a BDSM relationship is more committed and more serious than marriage. At the rate that the suggestion "to move on" is made, I fail to see where a BDSM relationship would be more serious or more committed.


Pessimistic? Sure, I'll give you that. But I believe this perspective on the modern marriage is a realistic one. Don't get me wrong...I am not anti marriage or anti commitment. The contrary is true. I have personally never believed in or engaged in casual sex. There are young women on this site who have had more sexual partners before the age of 20 than I have had my entire life and I'm twice their age. My personal preference is for commitment and monogamy, although I accept that other views are equally valid.

Two important things have occured in my life that now shape my worldview:

1) After years of evangelical Christian upbringing, I became an Atheist at around 30. I now feel free to be intellectually honest when re-evaluating such long held truths and traditions such as love, marriage, fidelity, just to name a few. I am with cloudboy in this regard. I agree with all of his posts in this thread, however, people like TermsConditions continue to give me hope.

2)In my late 30's I was introduced to the world of BDSM and all things considered sexually alternative and deviant. I now have a much more tolerant and open view toward things like casual sex, homosexuality, group sex, fetish sex, sex with toys, sex with food, German dungeon porn, etc, etc. The exception is poly, which I still think is a big load of stinking crap, which is why I didn't offer that as a third option to the OP (but that is another thread, I suppose).

The combination of 1 and 2 make it very difficult to accept that any view of modern marriage other than pessimistic is entirely unrealistic. However, I'll state again, my personal preference is firmly grounded in traditional values.

Lastly, let me say that you will never count me among the ranks of those who believe that a BDSM relationship is more committed or serious than a marriage. The contrary is true. Although I do believe that power exchange can create an intimacy grounded in communication and trust that is rarely experienced in vanilla relationships, I also recognize that far too many BDSM relationships exist because the participants lack the emotional maturity and mental health to thrive in more traditional settings.

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 2:32:11 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: husband4fun

Does anyone here have any advice on how to encourage a vanilla wife to explore more? I've been with my wife for 10 years now, and she's occasionally humored me in the past by attending bdsm/fetish parties and events, but I could never really get her to participate; lately she won't even go along as a tourist. Needless to say, my own urges are not fading away, and she doesn't seem open to experimenting at home. My wife is extremely attractive, a quality person and a great mom to our two young sons, but this gap between my kinky side and her vanilla nature is causing me a lot of frustration. I'd sincerely like to hear what any of you think might help.

S.


Your issue is with your wife, so talk to her, you will have to eventually


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RE: "If only he....." - 3/12/2010 4:44:48 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		Your statement that either the wife puts out or the husband is entitled to screw other women is nonsense. The only way adultery is a valid solution to motherhood, is if the "marriage" was founded ab initio on cheating principles.

I'm not sure who you're quoting regarding divorce and morality, but it looks like you have sewed yourself up a mess of a patchwork quilt of references to rationalize cheating. I'm not impressed.

Just admit it to yourself. You favor a man deciding--unilaterally--that his needs are far more important than his family's needs. Fine. Then that man shouldn't have a family. He doesn't deserve the perks--of which there are plenty.

Cheating isn't adult thinking, even if it is couched in supposed intellectualism or Saintlyness. This is selfishness, straight up.

January


Yes. I'm going to hawk my BDSM novella again. Cheating--even in a non-married D/s relationship--has consequences. My One, by January Rowe. From Samhain Publishing.

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 5:30:24 PM   
Hawkwindblues


Posts: 183
Joined: 6/26/2009
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Your issue is with your wife, so talk to her, you will have to eventually


Short, sweet and true.

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 5:37:50 PM   
mstrslve4fun


Posts: 60
Joined: 12/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: husband4fun

Troll: We've had those discussions, I'm not a complete idiot. (Somewhat idiotic, I'll cop to.) But as our relationship has evolved, my wife's become quite a bit less adventurous and open-minded where fetish is concerned.


Take it from a wife and a mother. It isn't that she's becoming less open-minded and adventurous, it's that being a mom is hard work and you just get tired. If you want her to show you more attention, take some of the load off her. Do some housework, take the kids for an afternoon so she can have some rest. These things mean a lot. Once the weight is lifted things should lighten up a bit.

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 5:40:56 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Pessimistic? Sure, I'll give you that. But I believe this perspective on the modern marriage is a realistic one. Don't get me wrong...I am not anti marriage or anti commitment. The contrary is true. I have personally never believed in or engaged in casual sex. There are young women on this site who have had more sexual partners before the age of 20 than I have had my entire life and I'm twice their age. My personal preference is for commitment and monogamy, although I accept that other views are equally valid.


Funny, I have worked more than a decade in Family Law, and yet, I see your perspective as not being realistic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Two important things have occured in my life that now shape my worldview:

1) After years of evangelical Christian upbringing, I became an Atheist at around 30. I now feel free to be intellectually honest when re-evaluating such long held truths and traditions such as love, marriage, fidelity, just to name a few. I am with cloudboy in this regard. I agree with all of his posts in this thread, however, people like TermsConditions continue to give me hope.


I find it quite odd that you think that until you became an atheist, you couldn't be intellectually honest. Obviously, you are free to agree with cloudboy, although it would seem he states what you disagree with anyway, since he doesn't support monogamy and you do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
2)In my late 30's I was introduced to the world of BDSM and all things considered sexually alternative and deviant. I now have a much more tolerant and open view toward things like casual sex, homosexuality, group sex, fetish sex, sex with toys, sex with food, German dungeon porn, etc, etc. The exception is poly, which I still think is a big load of stinking crap, which is why I didn't offer that as a third option to the OP (but that is another thread, I suppose).


While I would be considered a born again Christian, I have come to terms with all of those "deviant" sexual practices without the need to forego my faith.

Regardless of that, it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's problem or question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
The combination of 1 and 2 make it very difficult to accept that any view of modern marriage other than pessimistic is entirely unrealistic. However, I'll state again, my personal preference is firmly grounded in traditional values.


There are a great number of people, even just on this site who are married and in monogamous relationships. There are also a great number of people, just on this site who are in non-married, but committed monogamous relationships. So your "views" in 1 and 2 really would seem to have absolutely no bearing on the sancity, or the longevity of marriage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Lastly, let me say that you will never count me among the ranks of those who believe that a BDSM relationship is more committed or serious than a marriage. The contrary is true. Although I do believe that power exchange can create an intimacy grounded in communication and trust that is rarely experienced in vanilla relationships, I also recognize that far too many BDSM relationships exist because the participants lack the emotional maturity and mental health to thrive in more traditional settings.


You can only speak for the "vanilla" relationships to which you have had a close personal view, which in the great scheme of the world is minimal.

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 5:50:45 PM   
mstrslve4fun


Posts: 60
Joined: 12/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady

This is a prime example why I preach to not jump into relationships. This guy married a woman, had kids and didn't realize this was coming? I don't mean to sound like a bitch here but why did he marry her THEN have kids if he knew there was this huge valley between them that he would struggle with? Now he's on an internet site trying to deal with it? And for what it's worth, I do not believe your wife knows your on here nor does she know you are, as you claim, active in the fetish community. I say I do not believe you because no vanilla woman would be ok with her husband having a profile on the internet looking for encounters. You have fewer options now and should know your life stopped being your own when those kids came along. Your real options? Divorce your wife and have the life you want but be a good Dad. Delete the profile and stop trying to hook up and live with your choices.


Lady, I'm with you on this one. After reading the entire thread, I was wondering when somebody was going to state the obvious and give this guy some real advice he could take to the bank. IMHO, this marriage was over long before the second kid was even born. However, I'll go out on a limb here and say I don't entirely blame the OP. When sex becomes a chore, marriage becomes just another legal contract.


Am I the only one that has a problem with this? There's more to marriage and love then kink. To base a marriage and love and relationship simply on whether you are compatible in the fetish lifestyle is just wrong, IMO. To me, the relationship comes first, kink is just the frosting on the cake.

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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 5:52:05 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		With your experience in Family Law, do you not think that statistics would bear out my views? For example, more than 50% of marriages end in divorce, and of those who stay married, easily a third to half are unhappy and accept less than fullfilling sex lives as the price of marriage? My worldview only seeks to explain what is, not present the world as it is not.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 6:00:52 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrslve4fun

Am I the only one that has a problem with this? There's more to marriage and love then kink. To base a marriage and love and relationship simply on whether you are compatible in the fetish lifestyle is just wrong, IMO. To me, the relationship comes first, kink is just the frosting on the cake.


Of course there is more to marriage and love than kink, but we are talking sex here. Few vanilla marriages survive without fulfilling sex. Kink just happens to be how this guy enjoys sex. For many, there is no relationship without sex. Wasn't that the whole point of this thread? How long would you stay in a relationship that wasn't sexually satisfying?

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 6:09:05 PM   
mstrslve4fun


Posts: 60
Joined: 12/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrslve4fun

Am I the only one that has a problem with this? There's more to marriage and love then kink. To base a marriage and love and relationship simply on whether you are compatible in the fetish lifestyle is just wrong, IMO. To me, the relationship comes first, kink is just the frosting on the cake.


Of course there is more to marriage and love than kink, but we are talking sex here. Few vanilla marriages survive without fulfilling sex. Kink just happens to be how this guy enjoys sex. For many, there is no relationship without sex. Wasn't that the whole point of this thread? How long would you stay in a relationship that wasn't sexually satisfying?


I don't recall him ever saying that the only way he found sex fulfilling is through kink. What he is saying is that he likes kink and would like to enjoy it with his wife. Can people have fulfilling sexual relationships without fulfilling their fantasies? You bet your ass they can. He obviously is having sex with his wife, or they wouldn't have 2 small children.

Because his wife of 10 years, mother of his children, and the woman he loves isn't ready to go whole hog into his fantasies you want him to divorce her? What kind of inane shit is that?

(in reply to brainiacsub)
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RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 6:26:47 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrslve4fun

I don't recall him ever saying that the only way he found sex fulfilling is through kink. What he is saying is that he likes kink and would like to enjoy it with his wife. Can people have fulfilling sexual relationships without fulfilling their fantasies? You bet your ass they can. He obviously is having sex with his wife, or they wouldn't have 2 small children.

Because his wife of 10 years, mother of his children, and the woman he loves isn't ready to go whole hog into his fantasies you want him to divorce her? What kind of inane shit is that?


That is not what I said. I pointed out that he had two options, one of which was divorce. The super human effort that I referred to in that post included something along the lines of TermsCondition's insite. It's possible, but unlikely. Either way, I do wish him and his family the best.

(in reply to mstrslve4fun)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Married to vanilla? - 3/12/2010 8:20:52 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Whoever Dan Savage is ( quoted in Cloudboy's post), he sounds like a moron. Here is a newsflash: most women dont like to be treated like we are here only to "put out". I dont care if its a D/s or a vanilla relationship, that attitude is really disrespectful, and doesnt say much for men OR women.

Ya know, when you get married - no, wait - when you are in a COMMITTED relationship, the commitment is to try to work out differences and communicate.

(in reply to SassySarijane)
Profile   Post #: 140
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