RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance

RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (Full Version)

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barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:31:59 AM)
Hi LP, my words were simply YOU SEEM. I did not say you actually think he is. It was simply an observation that may have read into your post. I personally really have no determination as to whether he is innocent or guilty, i just can't see where the facts offer it either way. Perhaps i am reading into your posts, it just seems you have made a belief. And in this thread it frustrates me -- probably because i have been involved in these types of cases and know there is a hell of a lot more information NOT being given than the tidbits the media is portraying. Anyway --- I read the OP more as a what do we do with him -- as in is he an adult or a juvenile - not the if he is found guilty what do we do with him as i am a firm believer if we try him as an adult he is to face the adult sentences just as any adult would, and if he is tried as a juvenile he is sentences through that arena. Each of these determinations will lead to a different result if he is found guilty and in all actuality not really a guessing game --- as a juvenile he will be in until he is 21, records sealed, as an adult, i believe they stated they will go for life with no parole and if found guilty of two counts of 1st Degree as well as some states have a unborn murder statute, i believe he will be sentence to life without parole. I don't envy the judge making this determination. angel

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:34:48 AM)
Nah Julia,you all(you get a pass for being part Irish;)claim to be Irish on St.Paddy's day....not nearly the same thing.....but everyone enjoy the day and please do so safely!

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:40:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Thanks for editing my post and not including everything I stated... it shows me you have nothing to add to the conversation....You will not address any of the questions I asked you about child development because you know the answers do not agree with your preconceived notions about the world... I wish you luck on your path to fulfilling your dreams of being a psychologist, if you approach your coursework with the same amount of denial an refusal to address theory that you have demonstrated on this thread, you are going to need that luck. Wow...saying "thanks" when getting an answer to a question turns into major defensiveness. I'm simply amazed.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:45:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Thanks for editing my post and not including everything I stated... it shows me you have nothing to add to the conversation....You will not address any of the questions I asked you about child development because you know the answers do not agree with your preconceived notions about the world... I wish you luck on your path to fulfilling your dreams of being a psychologist, if you approach your coursework with the same amount of denial an refusal to address theory that you have demonstrated on this thread, you are going to need that luck. Wow...saying "thanks" when getting an answer to a question turns into major defensiveness. I'm simply amazed. Come on.... get real... everyone can read the entire thread boijen, you aren't a victim here

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:48:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Come on.... get real... everyone can read the entire thread boijen, you aren't a victim here Did I say that? There are no victims on this thread...as far as I can see at least. I'm just amazed at how personal this gets for you that you can't see a "thank you" for a "thank you". You're still all up in arms so much so that you're blinded to a simple recognition of an answer to a question. I wonder how blinded by your personal attachment to this boy being a child you would be if it were your pregnant daughter he had shot?

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:48:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I will repeat some advice I posted earlier Boi....."when you find yourself in a hole.....quit digging" And sweetie you are in a hole...it's simple really,and society recognises it in a multitude of ways....children are not little adults,they are simply children.And they look at things,arrive at decisions through a childs eyes...not small adult eyes.Till you can grasp that basic fundamental FACT(or put down the shovel) you will continue to put your adult foot in your adult mouth. Good advice to heed, seriously

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:49:41 AM)
Amazing ,simply amazing!

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 10:03:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Come on.... get real... everyone can read the entire thread boijen, you aren't a victim here Did I say that? There are no victims on this thread...as far as I can see at least. I'm just amazed at how personal this gets for you that you can't see a "thank you" for a "thank you". You're still all up in arms so much so that you're blinded to a simple recognition of an answer to a question. I wonder how blinded by your personal attachment to this boy being a child you would be if it were your pregnant daughter he had shot? You chopped my post from the original to make it look like I was taking responsibility for personally attacking you, when that is the opposite of what I was saying... This is personal for you, too, and you state in a myriad of ways that is is all through out this thread, so you can now quit pretending I am the only one that this is personal for and take on the mantel that I am personally attacking you... in fact the above post I am quoting shows this is personal for you because you identify with the family of the murder victim, and not the child... Here is the thing boijen, my aunt whom I never met was murdered. Her murderers got off with extremely light sentences. This was during the depression, I never met her. I have heard she was beautiful, red hair and blue eyes. There are no photos left of her because they were burned in a fire. My grandmother never recovered from that event, every time someone mentioned Ruby's name she would cry... so no, there is nothing you can tell me about the scars that murder can leave on a family, it left an indelible mark on mine decades after the event... That does not change the fact that children are different than adults. It does not change the fact that their psychological development is different. It does not change the fact you say you want to be a psychologist. It does not change the fact that you are highly resistant to accepting that children are different from adults. It does not change the fact that these statements are tantamount to someone claiming they want to be a medical doctor that treats people's humors and bleed them with leeches is about the same as the things you have stated on this thread.... And no, I doubt you will ever address the above statements, which are not about you personally, they are about what you have stated as someone who wants to be a professional in a certain field and yet refuses to address relevant theory because it does not match your emotion based prejudices and beliefs... which frankly, I find kinda frightening from someone with your stated career goals... So what happens if you ever work with children boijen, are you going to practice psychology on them as you would an adult? (I know you probably will not address that) There are other people on this thread that state the same things that you have, the reason I am not posting to them is that they do not want to be psychologists when they grow up... so as you can see, it is all about your stated career goals, because you very well might be working with kids one day.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 10:06:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Amazing ,simply amazing! It is utterly astounding, I know!

calamitysandra -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 12:59:52 PM)
In Germany there would be no trial a all for this boy. Neither juvenile nor adult court. Children are deemed "schuldunfähig", not able to be prosecuted under the age of 14. There is some talk about lowering this to 12, though. The boy would receive psychological attention, and if he is guilty, he would be confined in an closed institution where he would receive therapy. He would stay there until he were deemed no longer a danger to others and himself. Society at large would be protected, while he might get help, maybe even have a chance at "getting fixed". Between 14 and 18 teenagers are automatically tried as juveniles, and between 18 and 21 there will be psychological examinations to determinate if somebody should be tried as a juvenile or an adult. Over all I like this system. It provides the necessary safety for society, while still taking into account the differences between children, teens, and adults. I thought I could provide some different perspective by highlighting how those cases are handled in an other place.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 1:45:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra In Germany there would be no trial a all for this boy. Neither juvenile nor adult court. Children are deemed "schuldunfähig", not able to be prosecuted under the age of 14. There is some talk about lowering this to 12, though. The boy would receive psychological attention, and if he is guilty, he would be confined in an closed institution where he would receive therapy. He would stay there until he were deemed no longer a danger to others and himself. Society at large would be protected, while he might get help, maybe even have a chance at "getting fixed". Between 14 and 18 teenagers are automatically tried as juveniles, and between 18 and 21 there will be psychological examinations to determinate if somebody should be tried as a juvenile or an adult. Over all I like this system. It provides the necessary safety for society, while still taking into account the differences between children, teens, and adults. I thought I could provide some different perspective by highlighting how those cases are handled in an other place. This is in keeping with what I know about child development and humane...

kiwisub12 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 1:53:32 PM)
Just for interests sake - if there is no trial, how do they determine the kids guilt? And this sounds like a good system to me as well - though I have to ask - if a child under 12 murders someone, are they automatically incarcerated until deemed fit for society, be it 18 or 88?

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 1:56:57 PM)
I'm going to take a guess here (till Calamity comes along and aswers the question) but an inquest or a hearing could possibly be held to get to the facts.....without all of the trappings of a trial...perhaps with less of an adversarial setting the truth is actually arrived at more readily.

kiwisub12 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:01:43 PM)
In other words - do away with the lawyers! Good idea. Be cheaper too.

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:08:51 PM)
Well,my thinking on that is ...if you remove jeopardy from the equation...in other words if the purpose of the hearing is what is best for the child at the heart of the hearing....would a lawyer as such be absolutely necessary...an advocate of some sort ,yes but no a lawyer would probably not be necessary......of course I'm just speculating based on what Calamity wrote...I have no actual insight into the German model of juvenile justice

calamitysandra -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:18:41 PM)
Now, I have no in dept knowledge of the process, so I am reading up on it at the moment, but the general procedure is that there will be a hearing in front of a judge.

calamitysandra -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:28:56 PM)
Found the specifics. The guardianship court decides about the placement of the child in cases of danger to other persons (if a child neds placement outside of the family because of danger to the child, it is th territory of the family court). Witnesses and experts, as well as the child, the family, and other relevant persons are heard, and the guardianship judge decides.

kiwisub12 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:34:30 PM)
Simple, efficient - it would never fly in America. [&o] Too many lawyers want a piece of the pie.

calamitysandra -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:39:29 PM)
Oh, don't get me wrong. In the case we are discussing here, the father, who believes in th innocence of his son, could hire a lawyer to fight against the placement. Edited to add: This fight would be separate from the initial hearing that decides over the placement. During this hearing the child will b represented by a person named "Rechtspfleger". The literal translation is "guardian of the law", I could not find an American counterpart. The sole job of the Rechtspfleger is to protect the best interest of the child.

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 2:40:19 PM)
Actually Kiwi it is the politics of juvenile justice...as evidenced in this very thread ,that leads to the train leaving the tracks.Too many come at it from a position of judgement and vengence(an eye for an eye.sort of thing) rather than a seeking of justice and what is best for the child in question.

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