RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance

RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (Full Version)

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Louve00 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 4:21:20 AM)
While Tazzy's already posted an example, I'm sure there are examples everywhere about wrongfully sentencing someone without a complete investigation..... Contacts: Seth Miller, Esq.: 202.341.2127 David Menschel, Esq.: 203.671.3792 Melissa Montle, Esq.: 561.843.9304 Innocent Man Released After 27 Years DNA Reveals Widespread Corruption in Brevard County Today, at approximately 5 p.m., William Dillon will walk out of Brevard County Jail after being freed pending trial. Last Friday, the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit Court vacated his murder conviction after DNA testing proved his innocence. The Innocence Project of Florida (IPF) paid for the DNA testing and drafted the post-conviction pleadings in Dillon's case. This was the conclusion of the court that got him convicted...... Conclusion: In its closing statement at Dillon's trial, the State said "n order to believe the Defendant . . . you must believe that all of [the witnesses] are either mistaken or lying and that the physical evidence is wrong." This statement was effective, because at the time, it seemed preposterous that the State's case was no more than a collection of lies, mistakes, and unreliable evidence. Now, the DNA evidence and other evidence that has emerged since trial reveals that Parrish was a liar who perjured herself at trial, Preston was a fraud masquerading as a scientist, Chapman was a snitch who gave false testimony, and Parker's identification was mistaken. Most importantly, DNA testing shows that the yellow t-shirt that the State used as the lynchpin of its case linking Dillon to the crime scene and corroborating the testimony of various witnesses was actually powerful, affirmative evidence of his innocence. To add insult to injury, to avoid the some odd millions this man is owed for being wrongfully incarcerated in the state of fla, fla instead, was trying to gather evidence to re-charge him again!! Last I heard the state dropped that shit, but I could be wrong. http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_28824.shtml

eyesopened -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 5:23:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact We might be looking at two different things here. One being the trial itself and the other being sentencing. While the sentence length would be greatly reduced if he is tried as a juvenile (nine years at best until he's 21) it also eliminates any possibility of a jury deciding the case at all. I think part of the issue here is, since one of the possibilities we have here if the kid is guilty and he's tried and convicted as a juvenile, he's really only going to serve four and a half years per victim. If it weren't for this defendant's age, there would be an outcry that it's a mockery of justice. Especially if it really is a case of someone walking up to a woman sleeping in her bed, aiming a shotgun at her, and pulling the trigger. I know I wouldn't be satisfied with that if I were the mother and would have been grandmother of the victims. I agree. It's high time we amended our juvinile justice system to deal with these crimes. But a 12 year old is not an adult and I don't think kids should be tried as though they are. A 12-year-old brain isn't fully developed. There exists a possibility that with the right treatment, this kid could be 'fixed' and he sure isn't gonna get that help in prison. If he's guilty, he should serve a perhaps of 25 years to life, but there should be mental health treatment included in that sentence. A 12-year-old knows right from wrong and knows that shooting someone in the head is most likely to end their life. But they don't have the capacity to get a wider view of how their actions can go beyond that. A kid can throw a rock off an overpass at a car passing underneath. The kid knows the rock may hit the car and damage it. The thought never enters their head that the rock could hit a car, cause the driver to swerve into another lane, causing a multi-car accident that kills several people. Or that the people killed could be someone he knows or that the people killed also have loved-ones who will suffer. Or that his own parents, grand-parents and other people he loves could be injured for his actions. They simply can't reason that far.

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 5:34:54 AM)
LP, you seem to have deemed this kid guilty. Under our laws, he would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of our law even if he is prosecuted as a juvenile. There are many people in our justice system who plead things down especially wherein they would only end up actually serving 8 years for killing 2 people -- with all the concept of good behavior etc. There are cases that get pled down to murder 2 etc. I mean people are implying that every person convicted in such cases get the fullest extent of the sentencing and that simply isn't true. Many murders are given a chance at parole etc, even 2nd timers, multiple murders etc. It will be interesting to see how this case plays out and the facts that are released once the trial begins. I wonder what pleas are being offered. angel

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 6:32:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl jen, i do hope as you get closer to concluding your degree, you find that little thing called empathy that is almost necessary to have to work in any area of the medical field... even a prison system. The word you're looking for is compassion...not empathy. Empathy endangers my ability to be objective. Compassion is for the victims of this act. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Or arrest them so they have an excuse to send them to a labor camp to work for free making Happy Meal toys.... over there the more people they can arrest, the more profit to be made off the slave labor.... Edited to add, once they execute people they can harvest their organs too... isn't that what we always wanted? To have a government that will arrest us, deny us due process, execute us, and then harvest our organs... what a noteworthy and exemplary model of "justice"! I say we chip in and send biojen there so she does not have to deal with the psychopathic child killers that are an ever present danger in the US I'm not sure what the problem is here that you people are getting all up in arms for me pointing out an example of one thing.... "It is not the severity of punishment nor the threat of it that deters crime, it is the certainty." Some odd text book I have around here.... This is a fact. And China's low crime rate just happens to be an example of that. I was not, by any means, advocating for a change in our country's due process rights because of that. There are so many ways for criminals to get around our justice system, like pleading down, that criminals have no certainty of punishment. The fact that individuals guilty of multiple murders can even have a possibility of parole instead of being put out of society's misery is beyond crazy. Good behavior is not something ANY one convicted of murder 1 should ever be eligible for. And thank you Lady Pact for pointing something out that I've tried to and not been able to. I'm merely commenting on my own beliefs of sentencing and interpretation of the information available and not making a judgment on if this boy deserves the same right to due process that any individual is given in this country. Damn, the personal attacks come out of the wood work when politics are involved. I guess now I'm gonna understand when my grandmother says don't bring up politics or religion when at someone else's house. boi

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:35:23 AM)
quote: Damn, the personal attacks come out of the wood work when politics are involved. I guess now I'm gonna understand when my grandmother says don't bring up politics or religion when at someone else's house. It isn't personal, it isn't even political... I have raised a child. I love kids. What you have said during the course of this thread is there really is no difference between the way kids think and the way that adults think. You have not once acknowledged that kids minds work differently. This isn't about politics, this is about your statement that you intend to be a psychologist and then turn around and claim that a child's brain is the same as an adult... even posted a link to try to support that position.. a link that I do not think you read because it did not support your position... Before taking this personal, I suggest you review your own statements on this thread and your unyielding stance about how militantly children should be treated in the justice system. Every time a preteen child is tried and convicted as an adult in this country that has been a travesty of justice... and it is people that think like you do that have allowed this.Then put that into context of what it means to be a psychologist, calling that is supposed to help people... I could post a myriad of articles, some from NPR and PBS, to show children (even teens) do not process consequences and actions the same way adults do.. it is one reason teens behave is risky ways at times.... some people moreso than others.... you post a link about brain morphology, which says nothing about the neurology of teens, and even less about the neurology of children

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:41:03 AM)
actually boijen, i don't care if you find compassion or empathy, i do hope however you learn to hold making a absolute determination regarding your patients or clients or profile until you have actual facts instead of media information on a subject. To me, you have taken pretty much no information and made an absolute determination. That to me in and of itself would be something most who are professionals in the field you are choosing would find as sloppy and completely irresponsible. So i do think you have a lot of work to do in the field you are pursuing but hey -- that's what learning is for. Better for you to be irresponsible now in your determinations as practice than when you actually could effect someone's life. To me, i have no issue with this child being tried as an adult or as a juvenile -- i don't believe the system is set up to be ABLE to try him fairly or unbiasedly as an adult. I mean think about it, the people posting on this thread is pretty much what a jury would consist of, and look at the conflict people have. To me, even if people claim to be capable of being unbiased would on some level have issues with his age and the crime itself or believing the father should hold some responsibility etc. To me, if they try him as an adult and in any way take his age into account during the prosecution of same, then the prosecution is flawed and he isn't being tried to the fullest extent of the law within which the verdict would be strong. That is my issue with trying him as an adult. People want him punished -- unfortunately, our system doesn't allow for lifelong punishment of juveniles. I think juveniles should be sentenced as adults are -- in years -- not in until you reach a certain age concept and then when they reach the majority they are basically put through the paces as an adult is of evaluation and a determination of are they ready to be released. I don't believe juvenile criminal records should be sealed either. But unfortunately its not the way our system works. angel

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:42:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania It isn't personal, it isn't even political... And yet..... quote: I have raised a child. I love kids. So this is personal for you?

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:45:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel actually boijen, i don't care if you find compassion or empathy, i do hope however you learn to hold making a absolute determination regarding your patients or clients or profile until you have actual facts instead of media information on a subject. To me, you have taken pretty much no information and made an absolute determination. That to me in and of itself would be something most who are professionals in the field you are choosing would find as sloppy and completely irresponsible. So i do think you have a lot of work to do in the field you are pursuing but hey -- that's what learning is for. Better for you to be irresponsible now in your determinations as practice than when you actually could effect someone's life. angel This boy is not my client nor my patient. I have no moral, professional, or ethical obligation to reserve judgment. Most people in my field know how to separate personal politics from a professional situation. This is personal politics. Let me add, that should this boy have ended up on my professional doorstep, it would be my obligation (the same as a juror's) not to indulge myself in such personally political conversations or media reports. And had I already done so, referred him to someone else. That's why my personal politics have nothing to do with my competency as a professional. I see this as projection. Individuals projecting their own inability in a position of "giving advice" (which is not what a therapist does...that's a very common public perception and it is wrong) and separating their personal politics from that "advice".

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:48:36 AM)
Yet Boijen, you are the one who brought up the idea you are an amatuer psychologist and will one day be a professional one. So at that point in the discussion that DID matter in your replies otherwise you wouldn't have stated same as if it was some argument or support to your responses. Now suddenly it seems you are changing your mind because people are coming down on you due to your response of one day being a professional psychologist and your support in some ways of psychological information you seem to have used to make these absolute determinations about this kid. angel

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:50:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Yet Boijen, you are the one who brought up the idea you are an amatuer psychologist and will one day be a professional one. So at that point in the discussion that DID matter in your replies otherwise you wouldn't have stated same as if it was some argument or support to your responses. Now suddenly it seems you are changing your mind because people are coming down on you due to your response of one day being a professional psychologist and your support in some ways of psychological information you seem to have used to make these absolute determinations about this kid. angel Actually, dear, you're the one who brought it up.

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:52:25 AM)
Here boijen, i simply asked you a question of your sources and ironically you posted psychological information when i was asking what your sources were regarding the case -- but i will post your response - seems to me your statement about being an amatuer shrink to be a professional one day is used as a reason for your absolute determinations more so that you are just posting your opinions on the subject: quote: quote: ORIGINAL: quote: barelynangel boijen, what sources are you reading from to make such a distinction about this kid? Please cite your sources because i think you are projecting or at least trying to be some go getter amatuer psychologist. You know you sound almost the same way many people use to speak about gays and lesbians. Here's some information on the recidivism rates of violent juvenile offenders... http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivism/Juvenile_Recidivism_Report_FY05.pdf 76% of Juvenile offenders have either a previous record or will go on to commit other crimes. Among male juvenile offenders, the recidivism rate is 77% http://www.springerlink.com/content/070077372p2u8825/ A study on efforts to treat recidivism predictors. I thought recidivism issues were common knowledge. That if a person, any person, commits a violent crime, they are more likely to commit another violent crime than someone facing court or imprisonment for a first offense. I may be an amateur shrink but in a few years I'll be the professional one. boi Edited to Add: There's a huge difference between pathological issues and sexuality issues. Some bigot might say things like "the way to deal with dykes and fags are to just put them down". The difference is that one of these issues is recognized by the state and the APA as a danger to society and the well being of other individuals around them. Nice try at pulling on the heart strings though. < Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/16/2010 12:26:27 PM >

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:54:08 AM)
Thanks for proving my point.

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 7:58:44 AM)
And what point is that? Because the point i can see is that you have been posting an absolute determination based upon your belief you have some psychological knowing to do so because you will one day be a professional, and when people started to come down on you suddenly you are whining you are just posting an opinion. If its your opinion fine, but your posts aren't reflecting same until you started SAYING it. But i can see how that happens -- i do it quite a bit myself in discussions. However, my concern with your points started when you seemingly implied that your going to be a professional somehow made your points valid outside of a personal opinion. To me, the way you came about to even what you deem opinions would cause me great concern if in fact you were a professional because even professionals when they are personally drawing conclusions use their experience and knowledge when drawing personal opinions. They can't help it because for them its instinct. Just as when i am in a discussion i tend to draw conclusions the same way i would if i was evaluating a case. angel

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 8:05:19 AM)
Wow...responding to your comment on amateur psychologist with some fact of my professional goals somehow turns into a justification for your own issues with this subject. I knew about the recidivism rates in the US well before entering into this field of study. I'm one of those crazy internet clickers that can spend hours just reading oddly linked news stories and researching information behind what's stated. So recounting that information had nothing to do with an off hand response to your comment about my professionalism. But again...that's the personal part of this. It wasn't personal in anyway until people got pissed off about someone else's opinion. I, for one, have to start drinking...it's St. Patty's day and I need to go honor some Irish heritage. If my spelling issues worsen, please, forgive me.

LadyPact -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 8:23:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel LP, you seem to have deemed this kid guilty. Under our laws, he would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of our law even if he is prosecuted as a juvenile. There are many people in our justice system who plead things down especially wherein they would only end up actually serving 8 years for killing 2 people -- with all the concept of good behavior etc. There are cases that get pled down to murder 2 etc. I mean people are implying that every person convicted in such cases get the fullest extent of the sentencing and that simply isn't true. Many murders are given a chance at parole etc, even 2nd timers, multiple murders etc. It will be interesting to see how this case plays out and the facts that are released once the trial begins. I wonder what pleas are being offered. angel I believe, if you should be very specific about My prior post, My exact words are "if the kid is guilty". This is the very same question asked in the original. If he really did this thing, what should we do with him? That is the premise here. ETA.... His guilt is absolutely one of the possible scenarios. If that is the case, I think he should be shown the exact level of mercy that he showed the unborn child when it's life was taken.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 8:36:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania It isn't personal, it isn't even political... And yet..... quote: I have raised a child. I love kids. So this is personal for you? THIS is personal to me, my comments to you are not personal.. you do understand the difference? I am reminded of how you accused another poster of posting a plea to emotion and turned around and did the same thing... I will reiterate, for the last time, your unwillingness to acknowledge that children are different psychologically than adults really says a lot about your education in the field of psychology... these are basic concepts in the field and yet you do not seem to know about them and post red herring articles to deflect this lack of knowledge as it relates to your stance on this thread... This is a stance I will attack because you claim it is academic, and it isn't at all. I am not the first parent to take an active interest in child psychology in the course of parenting so I could be a better parent. The concepts I am posting about here are not rocket science, and many parents know that their kids do not always know reality from make believe, truth from lies, and how actions lead to consequences... it is why we have parents to raise kids, because they are different in terms of their ability to accept responsibility for not only their survival, but their choices.It is your stance that I am attacking, not you. Your stance on this thread shows an inconsistency with the body of information on these concepts, yet you claim to authority on the subject... which puts a target on your back.. don't like the target, well learn about what you speak of, or stop claiming that authority... pretty simple really... It would be like me claiming to be a paleontology student that believed human beings and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time, or like a historian that claimed the Holocaust didn't happen.. seriously... what you are saying is that far out of the mainstream of child psychological theory.

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen So this is personal for you? THIS is personal to me Thanks for answering the question.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:24:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen So this is personal for you? THIS is personal to me Thanks for answering the question. Thanks for editing my post and not including everything I stated... it shows me you have nothing to add to the conversation....You will not address any of the questions I asked you about child development because you know the answers do not agree with your preconceived notions about the world... I wish you luck on your path to fulfilling your dreams of being a psychologist, if you approach your coursework with the same amount of denial an refusal to address theory that you have demonstrated on this thread, you are going to need that luck.

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:29:55 AM)
I will repeat some advice I posted earlier Boi....."when you find yourself in a hole.....quit digging" And sweetie you are in a hole...it's simple really,and society recognises it in a multitude of ways....children are not little adults,they are simply children.And they look at things,arrive at decisions through a childs eyes...not small adult eyes.Till you can grasp that basic fundamental FACT(or put down the shovel) you will continue to put your adult foot in your adult mouth. And yes I'm also a parent....so I guess now you can write this all off as personal for me too;) that's cool...Happy St.Patrick's day...to everyone who is Irish and all the rest of you ...who wish you were!

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 9:31:27 AM)
quote: Happy St.Patrick's day...to everyone who is Irish and all the rest of you ...who wish you were! We are all Irish on Saint Paddy's Day! (I really am part Irish)

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