RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance

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WyldHrt -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 8:13:48 PM)
quote: You know even if he wanted to kill the step-mom, and did so, how can we be sure he understood completely the ramification of killing an unborn child? I mean even in law its fairly new law in some states where if an unborn child dies in the line of a crime its considered murder or manslaughter. How can we be sure a 12 year old even understands the concept of FETUS in terms of life? I mean for many kids until the baby is born they don't really register the concept. While he may not have understood the legal ramifications, I would be quite surprised if he didn't know that killing the mother was also killing the unborn child. In the article, it mentioned that the family lived on a farm in PA. If it is a working farm, or one where they raised livestock, he probably had known about pregnancy and birth for many years. Farm kids usually see that kind of thing at a very young age. The next bit is general, not to Angel in particular: This also brings up LP's point about the gun. This is a country kid who liked to go hunting with his dad. Unless 'hunting' is a euphemism for 'walking around the woods and not shooting stuff', he knew exactly what happens when you point a gun at a living thing and pull the trigger. All that said, I have no idea whether this kid committed the crime or not. The footprint bit makes me wonder, but there's really no way to know at this stage (if ever).

tazzygirl -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/17/2010 11:35:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl jen, i do hope as you get closer to concluding your degree, you find that little thing called empathy that is almost necessary to have to work in any area of the medical field... even a prison system. The word you're looking for is compassion...not empathy. Empathy endangers my ability to be objective. Compassion is for the victims of this act. Ah. So then the article in the WPA is wrong (WPA being the world psychiatric association) Psychiatrists would undoubtedly support the notion of promoting such qualities as empathy, sensitivity and caring in the pursuit of good clinical practice. However, cultivating what we may call the "art of psychiatry" is not straightforward, since the qualities that constitute it are elusive. I propose that the means by which we can accomplish the goal of relating empathically and compassionately to our patients and their families is by regarding the humanities and the sciences as of equal relevance and as complementary. The humanities, particularly literature, the visual arts, film and music, are most suited to promoting empathic skills when they are woven into the clinical scenario. Examples are provided to demonstrate how this may be achieved. Were we to succeed in highlighting the art of psychiatry in our educational programs, and as part of continuing professional development, I surmise that our patients and their families would be the beneficiaries. We cannot merely vow to act empathically and sensitively. Instead, we should embark on a lifelong journey through the wonderful world of literature, the visual arts, film and music. The experience will not only prove appealing and engaging, but it will also go far to enrich our personal and professional lives. ........ Thus, as we listen to the stories of patients and their families - whether it be a widow's grief upon the suicide of her husband, an adolescent's struggle to confront his heroin addiction, a Holocaust survivor sharing his guilt at living while his entire family has perished, the torment of a person with schizophrenia fending off persecutory demons, a couple's distress in coping with the diagnosis of anorexia nervosa in their daughter (the list is endless) - we use empathy in striving to understand what people are experiencing behind their narratives. I would suggest this is a sine qua non of all healing responses. The French historian Marcel Bloch refers to his craft in a way which is remarkably apt for the psychiatrist who, in a pivotal sense, also occupies the role of historian. After all we refer to historytaking, family history, developmental history and the like. Bloch points out: "When all is said and done, a single word, 'understanding', is the beacon light of our studies" (8). It is empathy which leads us to this beacon in psychiatry. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414757/ You may want to read a bit more. And before you comment on how i am ganging up on you, recall, you and i have had our run in's before. When i attack, no one is in doubt. i suggested you needed to rethink a few things.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 4:31:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel The boy's defense attorney filed a motion to get the case moved to Juvenile court. The Judge is currently considering it, which is why there really is no decision as of yet. Also it states in PA Kids charged with murderin Pennsylvania are automatically considered adults and only a judge's decision can move the trial to junvenile court. angel Thanks for the clarification, angel [:)] I did think it odd that the two contradict each other with the most recent saying he hadn't been charged as an adult yet. I too think it's backwards, those under 18 should be charged as a juvenile then a motion filed to move it to adult court. zeph

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 8:26:43 AM)
"Empathy, surprisingly, is a new word to the English language. Derived from the Greek em-into, pathos-feeling, empathy denotes an emotional process through which we place ourselves in another person's internal world and thereby experience that world vicariously. We do not do this for its own sake but as a means to accomplish an accurate understanding of what the experience is like for the other person. Referring to the process by its more accurate German term, Einfühlung, literally "feeling into", Sigmund Freud states that it "plays the largest part in our understanding of what is inherently foreign to our ego in other people" (7)." From your same article. You don't see how this would compromise an objective evaluation and treatment plan? Empathy is what I give friends who seek advice. I highly suggest seeing if you can find the second chapter of Theory and Practice of Counseling and Psychotherapy by Gerald Corey. It's entitled "The counselor: Person and Professional". In this chapter (in a book that examines every major technique of counseling and psycho therapy currently used), Corey explains the need to keep a professional distance from clients because to empathize with them endangers the objectivity of treatment. What this means is, in the long run, counselors' compromise themselves and the patients. That empathizing instead of finding humanitarian compassion leads to professional burnout and emotional and physical exhaustion. If one empathizes with a patient they risk a key no-no in the therapeutic process for the counselor: "Avoid assuming burdens that are properly the responsibility of others. If you worry more about your clients than they do about themselves, for example, it would be well for you to reconsider this investment." (Corey, 40). An example of seeing empathizing being too much of a good thing is when counselors spend time helping "caretakers". Caretakers often take on all responsibility for a person or situation without regard to others' responsibilities within the situation. They become over protective and guarded against giving up any of that responsibility because it threatens their own role. This all comes down to control issues, which occur when anyone becomes overly invested in someone else's life. There's a reason that schools don't teach future shrinks to empathize with their future clients. They talk about compassion. Damnit...I really thought I was done with this thread. There come s a point when people being to focus on the person who disagrees with them rather than the topic at hand...that's when it's become personal and that's why I'm bowing out of this. If anyone is interested in talking about the topic, they can message me on the other side. Have a good one ya'll. boi P.S. Never chewed on my foot, no matter what anyone here thinks.

tazzygirl -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 8:37:35 AM)
Actually, in a clinical setting, empathy is what is sought... along with compassion.. not sympathy. Empathy allows one to understand say post-op pain, but still push the patient to get up out of bed and walk. Your making it sound like empathy is a hinderence when, in reality, its beneficial to even psychiatric patients to be empathetic, as the article states. quote: An example of seeing empathizing being too much of a good thing is when counselors spend time helping "caretakers". Caretakers often take on all responsibility for a person or situation without regard to others' responsibilities within the situation. They become over protective and guarded against giving up any of that responsibility because it threatens their own role. This all comes down to control issues, which occur when anyone becomes overly invested in someone else's life. That isnt empathy, thats sympathy. Then again, as your still in your general ed classes.. per your previous post... you may not understand the difference.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 9:14:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually, in a clinical setting, empathy is what is sought... along with compassion.. not sympathy. Empathy allows one to understand say post-op pain, but still push the patient to get up out of bed and walk. Your making it sound like empathy is a hinderence when, in reality, its beneficial to even psychiatric patients to be empathetic, as the article states. quote: An example of seeing empathizing being too much of a good thing is when counselors spend time helping "caretakers". Caretakers often take on all responsibility for a person or situation without regard to others' responsibilities within the situation. They become over protective and guarded against giving up any of that responsibility because it threatens their own role. This all comes down to control issues, which occur when anyone becomes overly invested in someone else's life. That isnt empathy, thats sympathy. Then again, as your still in your general ed classes.. per your previous post... you may not understand the difference. I just read a chapter in a book about patient narratives in psychiatry. It was by Robert Coles, who used to practice reductionist psychiatry as a young resident, and through the course of his work he found narrative and empathy very important to the treatment of the entire person. This was a rather new approach to practicing psychotherapy. There are many schools of thought about practicing psychology... one is that a doctor must remain "detached", another is that detachment is impossible. One is from the modernist approach to psychotherapy, the other is a post modernist view of practicing therapy... http://www.enotes.com/call-stories-salem/call-stories The thing is mental illness is defined differently in different places. One cultures freak or demon possessed or "sick" person is another cultures shaman. Foucault wrote about this in book http://books.google.com/books?id=EdvHszgKg7AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=foucault+mental+illness+and+psychology&source=bl&ots=mjAqmkalKO&sig=C0WM88knTQkNtps_9MWwUD4ETh8&hl=en&ei=m1CiS-K3DImCNKLi_PcI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false The problem with trying to remain "detached" is not only is it impossible to do so, it puts the psychiatrist in a position of non-reflexively dealing with those he/she treats, which can lead to reverse transference, projection on the part of the psychiatrist/psychologist, and basically reduces people to syndromes and disorders which are not usually treatable because they do not get to the root cause, which is usually embedded in the life of the patient. This is why cognitive behavioral therapy has begun to be so wide spread.

LadyPact -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 9:20:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: You know even if he wanted to kill the step-mom, and did so, how can we be sure he understood completely the ramification of killing an unborn child? I mean even in law its fairly new law in some states where if an unborn child dies in the line of a crime its considered murder or manslaughter. How can we be sure a 12 year old even understands the concept of FETUS in terms of life? I mean for many kids until the baby is born they don't really register the concept. While he may not have understood the legal ramifications, I would be quite surprised if he didn't know that killing the mother was also killing the unborn child. In the article, it mentioned that the family lived on a farm in PA. If it is a working farm, or one where they raised livestock, he probably had known about pregnancy and birth for many years. Farm kids usually see that kind of thing at a very young age. The next bit is general, not to Angel in particular: This also brings up LP's point about the gun. This is a country kid who liked to go hunting with his dad. Unless 'hunting' is a euphemism for 'walking around the woods and not shooting stuff', he knew exactly what happens when you point a gun at a living thing and pull the trigger. All that said, I have no idea whether this kid committed the crime or not. The footprint bit makes me wonder, but there's really no way to know at this stage (if ever). I actually almost included the highlighted above in My previous answer. The same could be said for a kid that age who's owned a pet that ever had a litter. It's not a far out thought to believe that this kid knew that if the baby was going to be born, the mother would have to survive. What I'm inclined to be less sure about is if the law charging someone accused of murder automatically as an adult, rather than a juvenile is backwards or not. We can't skip the issue that some of the most horrendous, cold hearted crimes are committed by people under the age of eighteen.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 10:50:17 AM)
quote: What I'm inclined to be less sure about is if the law charging someone accused of murder automatically as an adult, rather than a juvenile is backwards or not. We can't skip the issue that some of the most horrendous, cold hearted crimes are committed by people under the age of eighteen What about under the age of 13, not even a teen yet... and then if we say "Well 12 is so close to 13 we will go ahead and try 12 year olds as adults" and then an 11 year old does something... so someone says "Well 11 is so close to 12, we will try 11 year olds as adults"... etc etc etc...

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 11:10:36 AM)
Actually he was 11 at the time of the incident.

LadyEllen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/18/2010 11:12:25 AM)
I guess the decision on whether to try as an adult or juvenile is one for the court to make and in keeping with its general operating principles it will most naturally wish to "charge" someone with being an adult and test the evidence for that assertion against the principle of innocent until proven guilty - here "a juvenile until proven adult". Notwithstanding the systematic and procedural issues of legal representation, evidence and process, this ought to be a reasonable way to proceed. Far more reasonable however would be for the system to recognise from the start that minors are minors given that so much of its own law is devoted to their protection and limitation in other circumstances. E

JonnieBoy -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 12:43:41 AM)
I guess the question has been answered by the few bold, brave or even stupid here. There are more who have not answered it (yet pissed about with posturings that might sound good to the chosen ear) than that have. For me ... anyone who can't (one way or another at this point) should bugger off and get on a prison visitors list for fucks sake ... then.at least be able to come back wiser and less vindictive about things we are all entitled to our own thoughts upon. I didn't do child killers ("child" killers ... not ... child "killers" ?) I did paedophiles ... Same difference in terms of the media (which this is) ... there's always a bunch of vultures looking for something tasty that's just not there. Whom of you will adopt this "boy" ? Pirate

goldenwyrm1968 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 12:57:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over. Apparently some memebers of the mob will not be sated with the lynching of the supposed shooter.....one of our rabid group actually has nominated the father for his own turn swinging under the stout limb.....absolutely stupifying! Add me to the lynch mob ready to string up a parent who failed to instill the proper social values into his child. I'ma firm believer that a parent should be held responsible for failing to teach thier children proper moral and ethical conduct.

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 1:15:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: goldenwyrm1968 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over. Apparently some memebers of the mob will not be sated with the lynching of the supposed shooter.....one of our rabid group actually has nominated the father for his own turn swinging under the stout limb.....absolutely stupifying! Add me to the lynch mob ready to string up a parent who failed to instill the proper social values into his child. I'ma firm believer that a parent should be held responsible for failing to teach thier children proper moral and ethical conduct. So its your contention that only bad arents wind up with "bad" children....does it than follow that good parents are a sure fire guarentee to the production of good children.See how silly that sounds....a parent can do everything right and wind up with his/her heart broken...while conversely some drugged out prostie can have a child that rises above those humble and tawdry circumstances to lead a good and decent life. Care to explain how those things can happen.....and your statement still hold water?

goldenwyrm1968 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 1:23:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: goldenwyrm1968 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over. Apparently some memebers of the mob will not be sated with the lynching of the supposed shooter.....one of our rabid group actually has nominated the father for his own turn swinging under the stout limb.....absolutely stupifying! Add me to the lynch mob ready to string up a parent who failed to instill the proper social values into his child. I'ma firm believer that a parent should be held responsible for failing to teach thier children proper moral and ethical conduct. So its your contention that only bad arents wind up with "bad" children....does it than follow that good parents are a sure fire guarentee to the production of good children.See how silly that sounds....a parent can do everything right and wind up with his/her heart broken...while conversely some drugged out prostie can have a child that rises above those humble and tawdry circumstances to lead a good and decent life. Care to explain how those things can happen.....and your statement still hold water? What constitutes bad parenting is the problem? are you saying that because a woman is a prostitute, she fails as a parent? Or that the parent that routinely shuttles their child off to Church on Sunday for another to teach them Moral conduct has succeeded. Where a parent fails is when they lack the courage to allow their children to fail and suffer for their failure, when that failure does not represent life or death. Children that are raised with no appreciation for the effects of bad judgement never learn.

WyldHrt -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 1:27:33 AM)
quote: Add me to the lynch mob ready to string up a parent who failed to instill the proper social values into his child. I'ma firm believer that a parent should be held responsible for failing to teach thier children proper moral and ethical conduct. Mike is right on target here. I gave you a newbie pass on the other thread, but this, in the manner you have stated it, is just ignorant in the context of this thread.

goldenwyrm1968 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 1:43:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Add me to the lynch mob ready to string up a parent who failed to instill the proper social values into his child. I'ma firm believer that a parent should be held responsible for failing to teach thier children proper moral and ethical conduct. Mike is right on target here. I gave you a newbie pass on the other thread, but this, in the manner you have stated it, is just ignorant in the context of this thread. And I still will disagree with you "in the context of this thread". This Child killed his Stepmother and her unborn Child, his half-sibling. The debate isn't on whether he did it or not, but on whether he should be held responsible as an adult or as a child for his behavior. Ultimately, it won't matter, since this will be the first time he has ever been held responsible for his choices or his actions. Do I truly believe that the Father should be hanged for the sin of his Son? No, I don't. The man has suffered enough anguish. He has failed as a Father, he has failed as a Husband and failed as a Provider and Protector. His guilt must be an agonizing burden to bear. But this does not absolve him of his responsibility to learn from this failure as a Father. To just say some kids are just bad is a cop out. He has other Children he has to continue to raise. Is he going to make the same mistakes with them? or is he going to learn? I brought my asbestos underwear ;)

WyldHrt -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 1:55:10 AM)
I'll have to leave you to the tender mercies of the other members for tonight, as I have work in the morning and need some sleep. If I were you, I'd keep those undies close, though. You might be needing them.

tazzygirl -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/19/2010 6:35:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: goldenwyrm1968 quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Add me to the lynch mob ready to string up a parent who failed to instill the proper social values into his child. I'ma firm believer that a parent should be held responsible for failing to teach thier children proper moral and ethical conduct. Mike is right on target here. I gave you a newbie pass on the other thread, but this, in the manner you have stated it, is just ignorant in the context of this thread. And I still will disagree with you "in the context of this thread". This Child killed his Stepmother and her unborn Child, his half-sibling. The debate isn't on whether he did it or not, but on whether he should be held responsible as an adult or as a child for his behavior. Ultimately, it won't matter, since this will be the first time he has ever been held responsible for his choices or his actions. Do I truly believe that the Father should be hanged for the sin of his Son? No, I don't. The man has suffered enough anguish. He has failed as a Father, he has failed as a Husband and failed as a Provider and Protector. His guilt must be an agonizing burden to bear. But this does not absolve him of his responsibility to learn from this failure as a Father. To just say some kids are just bad is a cop out. He has other Children he has to continue to raise. Is he going to make the same mistakes with them? or is he going to learn? I brought my asbestos underwear ;) This child is ACCUSED of killing his soon-to-be stepmother.... please stick with the facts. i have a feeling there is alot we dont know yet. What did the teachers say about his demeanor that day? Where was that boyfriend they claim was threatening her? He doesnt have other children. Jordan is his only. The girls in question are not his and are being raised by her parents. And, since this is my OP, im still confused as to what to think. First, i believe a child is a child until someone can prove he had adult emotions, logic and planning skills Second, there is just something within me rebelling against the persecution this child is receiving in the press. They are comparing him to the 15 year old who killed, was hospitalized in a mental hospital, and when released, went on a killing spree. I cannot possibly be the only one to understand there is a world of differece between the mind of a 15 year old and the mind of an 11 year old.

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