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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 7:17:44 PM   
servantforuse


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Mr Rodgers, I was a shareholder in at&t and an employee. One company was split into 8 companies as was our stock. The government breakup was not good for most of them. It was not a good time to own phone company stock.

(in reply to Smutmonger)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 7:25:10 PM   
subfever


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quote:

We are going to need a lot of cultural education and change to reach sustainability.


Indeed, and I can hardly wait.

quote:

Humans cannot even control thier own population growth-mostly for reasons of religion,and a primitive form of "social security."


Yes, the orientation does discuss population. As people worry less and less about basic survival and become educated more about sustainability, population growth should adjust itself accordingly.

If all waste were eliminated today, and humanity worked together instead of competing against each other, the earth could sustain a population much larger than what we have now.

(in reply to Smutmonger)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 7:33:52 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I got mine from working long hours. I did not get mine from the backs of others. I also don't spend every living hour worrying about a sustainable planet.


Do you spend any time worrying about a sustainable planet?


Why should he...that sort of shit is for those burdened with a sense of ethical value.


Perhaps so, but I'm beginning to believe that we're better off reaching out and looking for common ground, than we are focusing upon our differences. In the end, most of us want the same things in life. But we become products of our environment and overall experiences.


(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 8:22:05 PM   
sweetboundesire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I know all to well about anti-trust and unions. I was a union member for 33 years and lost $150,000 when the government broke up at&t. I didn't cry, I just kept on truckin.



this is a grouchy little thread...i makes me sigh and cry...I feel like I'm at work...

just one note, just say no to At&t they are total crap and if you happen to already be a crap member make sure to ask for an on shore agent when you call to complain about your service...the chances will tilt to 50% that your problem will be resolved.

_____________________________

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gotta pocket full of dreams and cash in my hand.
and i know, money ain't real...

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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 8:24:44 PM   
seekinguout


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Well, after watching the orientation, I felt it made some solid arguments for awareness in this country. We sorely lack
a common watch dog for the common person. I plan to review it again. Perhaps it's something everyone should watch with a open mind and HEAR each other's voices..

(in reply to subfever)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 8:41:00 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekinguout

Well, after watching the orientation, I felt it made some solid arguments for awareness in this country. We sorely lack a common watch dog for the common person. I plan to review it again. Perhaps it's something everyone should watch with a open mind and HEAR each other's voices..


Yay... the very first comment about the orientation presentation itself!

I realize at 1:37 it's a bit lengthy, and it can be a bit overwhelming for the uninitiated. But I'm glad you found it worthwhile enough to view it a 2nd time.

Please consider sharing your thoughts after you've had an opportunity to watch it again.

(in reply to seekinguout)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 9:11:42 PM   
Brain


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good, keep paying it because,
Top 1% got 2/3 of all U.S. income gains - 2002-07
http://www.nupge.ca/node/2544 
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

That top 2% that you mention also pay close to 50% in federal taxes in this country. The bottom 50% pay virtually nothing . Do you want some cheese with that whine ?

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 9:51:16 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

We are going to need a lot of cultural education and change to reach sustainability.


Indeed, and I can hardly wait.

quote:

Humans cannot even control thier own population growth-mostly for reasons of religion,and a primitive form of "social security."


Yes, the orientation does discuss population. As people worry less and less about basic survival and become educated more about sustainability, population growth should adjust itself accordingly.

If all waste were eliminated today, and humanity worked together instead of competing against each other, the earth could sustain a population much larger than what we have now.


First off, the link didn't work for me.

But, discussing competition, I realize there's a difficulty there. For one, often a lack of competition (as in monopolies) is worse than competition proper.

But we cannot deny there is obviously some kind of endemic structural problem, such that crisis occurs regularly, and rarefied waste is produced. That's at least partly what war, violence, and threats of violence (including starvation, homelessness, isolation, etc.) represent.

You could say without too much exaggeration the system itself is pathological, and profits off pain, suffering, and disequilibrium. Here's where vulture and vampire analogies come in.

Maybe, then, the at least temporary solution is controlled competition with a strong social base, such that people can choose what work they perform without threats to their social being... under those conditions, corruption might decrease, and overall quality of life will ease up a bit.

Of course, there's the counterargument, but more interesting is the counterargument's subtext, namely, 'But, without systemic corruption, where will I get my cheap thrills? There's no one left to torture!'

(in reply to subfever)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 10:38:32 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

We are going to need a lot of cultural education and change to reach sustainability.


Indeed, and I can hardly wait.

quote:

Humans cannot even control thier own population growth-mostly for reasons of religion,and a primitive form of "social security."


Yes, the orientation does discuss population. As people worry less and less about basic survival and become educated more about sustainability, population growth should adjust itself accordingly.

If all waste were eliminated today, and humanity worked together instead of competing against each other, the earth could sustain a population much larger than what we have now.


First off, the link didn't work for me.

But, discussing competition, I realize there's a difficulty there. For one, often a lack of competition (as in monopolies) is worse than competition proper.

But we cannot deny there is obviously some kind of endemic structural problem, such that crisis occurs regularly, and rarefied waste is produced. That's at least partly what war, violence, and threats of violence (including starvation, homelessness, isolation, etc.) represent.

You could say without too much exaggeration the system itself is pathological, and profits off pain, suffering, and disequilibrium. Here's where vulture and vampire analogies come in.

Maybe, then, the at least temporary solution is controlled competition with a strong social base, such that people can choose what work they perform without threats to their social being... under those conditions, corruption might decrease, and overall quality of life will ease up a bit.

Of course, there's the counterargument, but more interesting is the counterargument's subtext, namely, 'But, without systemic corruption, where will I get my cheap thrills? There's no one left to torture!'


LOL... well, if your cheap thrills originate from dysfunction, and dysfunction is gradually eliminated from the landscape... you may have a problem there...

Yes, the OP link is broken. I reposted a working link in post #6.

Come back and give us your thoughts.



(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/16/2010 11:50:24 PM   
Termyn8or


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FR

I have to respond to this in the blind because I can't watch the video right now. I would like to know more about this before going into alot of detail.

Any economy is the art of distributing wealth. Just how it is distributed is the crux of the matter. I'll get on my other PC and watch it, but not tonight. But I can speak in general terms.

Actually the Earth and the Sun produce all resources on this planet. We merely reap and sow them, or mine them or whatever. That is undeniable fact, and makes a good case for communism actually, something I did not intend to do but it happens. It is supported by some facts, one of which is you really don't get paid just for owning land. You get paid for the resources if you have mineral rights, or can farm it or use it for some other useful purpose. For example my family bought out of state property decades ago, but without development of some kind it was still worthless. We just stopped paying the taxes on it and let it go. So much for that.

With anything like that you can develop it yourself and reap some profits, fairly actually because in reality you are getting paid for your work and effort, either that or a shrewd business deal which would allow someone else to develop the land and give you a cut of their profit, such as those with gas wells on their property. I've known a couple of people with them. You know what is under gas right ? Oil. Not ALL the time, but alot of times, and you need a pool of it big enough to make it worth the drilling costs.

Now in the Communist Manifesto it states one of the planks is to eliminate inheritance. One would assume then that when one dies that all they have worked for will be taken. Is this right or wrong ? On one hand one of the biggest problems in this world is big, old money. No Man could make as much money. This is passed on with the Parents' attitude to try to keep it. To keep the machine going. The people who built the current financial system probably did forsee it's ultimate demise, but it wasn't going to happen in their lifetime. Today's moguls got the money by inheritance, but they also got their knowledge by inheritance.

Continuing my point about the political/social aspect of this, which might run off topic a bit, is the graduated tax system. It's pretty clear the soon we won't even be able to pay the interest on the national debt. Taxes mean nothing. I know noone who will chide someone for not paying taxes, as if they really knew why I agree. They have their own reasons. But the fact is that if everyone would just pay say ten or twelve persent, and there are no deductions of any kind the tax base would increase drastically. But no, the system of taxation in this country has become a tool of social engineering, and has been for quite some time. Anyone with a real brain will figure this out by simply studying the tax code. And the reason this finds pertainence to this topic is because taxes are largely nonproductive in any meaningful form, and RESOURCE means something of value. Yes they build roads and all that, but notice that many of them require a levy or something ? That's because someone is stealing all the money they can get. There's noting left for what they were SUPPOSED to do with the money in the first place. I have firsthand knowledge of this. All part of the game.

Yes I will watch the video soon and probably be froth with opinion and portent as well. But the root problem of any economy or government, for that matter, is because of people. As long as the people are how they are, things will stay the same until the whole house of cards collapses.

As such we probably will need some sort of alternative method of doing business. Barter isn't the worst option, but the value of goods traded needs to be accurately measured, thus we are back where we started, with a currency of sorts whether real or fiat. You might walk into a store and trade a bunch of sheepskins or whatever for say a side of beef. Well just how many sheepskins do you need to bring to get the beef ?

Salt was used at one time, but was abandoned. It actually has important home and industrial uses. I would crack a joke and say that's WHY it was abandoned. The PTB would never put up with a system in which currency had so much value, and now real salt is very expensive. I paid five bucks a pound a while back and stocked up on it. Today the stuff I have costs three times as much at least. How does that compare to gold or silver, which have no home uses in reality compared to salt ? Mind you this is not regular table salt, this is like the stuff they used thousands of years ago. More on that some other time, avoiding a hijack here.

The fact is that any financial system will have problems at the top, but the reality is that those at the bottom actually are the ones who create wealth. Unless those at the top stop stealing it, no system will work. It must be changed from the ground up so to speak.

Must go.

T

(in reply to domiguy)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 2:07:03 AM   
Aneirin


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Sustainable and monetary wealth are two subjects that can't go together as the wealthy more often than not do not give a shit about anything other than themselves and their personal purse. Capitalism is motivated by greed not the good of the planet or anything that lives on it.

On the subject of communism or it's similarities, because something failed, it is not a reason to give up, like all things, solutions that work are found by approaching a problem from different angles, communism will be tried again and again, as it seems the majority, that is not the wealthy minority, want it, or something like it.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 4:55:32 AM   
eyesopened


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I watched most of the orientation.  The whole thing sounded sad, like a human zoo.  Everyone in identical habitat, no need to look for food, everything abundant except zoo animals occasionally snap under the pressure of no natural and beneficial stress.  They end up killing their trainer, or chewing the face off their keeper.  The whole thing struck me as a sad, sad place. It reminded me of a futuristic society that has but one flaw.... a ruthless leader and requires Bruce Willis to be unfrozen in order to fix everything.

There is nothing, even resource-based economy Venus Project, that cannot be abused or exploited. 

Just my perspective.

But there was also a lot of good food for thought.  I advocate that people should have without hinderance their most basic needs, food, water, energy, medicine, housing.  And I agree that sour system now produces so much waste that we are literally choking on it.  So there's a lot of good information there.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 3/17/2010 5:45:10 AM >


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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 1:10:26 PM   
subfever


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quote:

It must be changed from the ground up so to speak.


Indeed, any real change will not start from the top. It will start from a grassroots effort, and will need to be a complete overhaul of the existing system.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 1:12:04 PM   
subfever


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quote:

Capitalism is motivated by greed not the good of the planet or anything that lives on it.


I'd say this would be tough to argue against.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 1:17:36 PM   
seekinguout


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I most certainly will. being informed is 1/2 the battle. The other half is up to us as a species.

< Message edited by seekinguout -- 3/17/2010 1:18:10 PM >

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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 1:29:53 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I watched most of the orientation.  The whole thing sounded sad, like a human zoo.  Everyone in identical habitat, no need to look for food, everything abundant except zoo animals occasionally snap under the pressure of no natural and beneficial stress.  They end up killing their trainer, or chewing the face off their keeper.  The whole thing struck me as a sad, sad place. It reminded me of a futuristic society that has but one flaw.... a ruthless leader and requires Bruce Willis to be unfrozen in order to fix everything.



Is it possible that there would be stress, but only the stress that we impose upon ourselves through our individual pursuits of elective education, work, and other creative endeavors; and those of which our family imposes upon us?

Yes, while the habitats within a city do seem identical or very similar, my guess is that they would vary from city to city. With no mandatory employment to encourage long-term rooting, one could move and travel at will.

quote:

There is nothing, even resource-based economy Venus Project, that cannot be abused or exploited. Just my perspective.


I'm curious though... without a monetary system or an incentive to gain advantage over a fellow human being, how might this system be exploited?

quote:

But there was also a lot of good food for thought. I advocate that people should have without hinderance their most basic needs, food, water, energy, medicine, housing. And I agree that our system now produces so much waste that we are literally choking on it. So there's a lot of good information there.


Indeed, as well as the growing problem of pollution.

Please come back and share your thoughts after you've had an opportunity to finish watching the presentation.


(in reply to eyesopened)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 1:48:03 PM   
thompsonx


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FR:
Cuba seems to still be there even with the most powerful nation in the world trying to butt fuck her for the past fifty years.

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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 3:07:55 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

FR:
Cuba seems to still be there even with the most powerful nation in the world trying to butt fuck her for the past fifty years.



It seems that some people here are already hoping that Cuba becomes my next home... lol

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 5:05:14 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

All economies are "resource based."

It's what economics is, the allocation of resources.



Our economy is a monetary-based, free enterprise, capitalist system.

Economics is a social science which studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

Have you watched the orientation?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based ... - 3/17/2010 5:26:14 PM   
LadyEllen


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You know what? thinking about it, its the likes of me - the entrepreneur, that is the source of the problem.

I never stop thinking, ever (except when asleep perhaps) of how I can make a buck or many out of this world. Now thats a good thing all in all in our current system, but it almost always relies on exploiting others or taking from others in some way to get that buck or many.

And I have to say that whatever the socio-economic system I lived under, notwithstanding the environmental influences that have perhaps trained me to be as I am, I cant see me being any different. I'd either be head of a crime syndicate running corruption or a leading party official operating corruption, even in a Stalinist society, because having spotted an opportunity I'd do what I needed to in order to get ahead.

Having said that, my ruthless streak comes with a strong liberal bias and interest in social justice and adhering to the law. Which is why I'll never, in a million years, be rich, but hopefully shall always be loved or at least respected.

E

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