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ORIGINAL: subfever
I'm curious though... without a monetary system or an incentive to gain advantage over a fellow human being, how might this system be exploited?

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As the presented mentioned, many people have provided much good to society without any thought to monetary gain. What is not mentioned is that many people have commited heinous acts and done much evil without any thought to monetary gain.

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There are plenty of people who love power for the sake of power, or acclaim for the sake of acclaim. Those things can also be incentives. Not everyone is nice.

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The way the society was presented, could also produce a greater than average apathy. If the love of money is the root of all evil then apathy is what allows evil to flourish

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Because human beings are not equal in intelligence, looks, talent, ability, then I can envision someone thinking, "hey how come the guy in the identical pod as mine gets to sit on his ass all day at a computer while I have to clean the latrines? He doesn't even work and he gets the same ration as me!" Evny will not go away, will just change its focus. Remove all natural and beneficial stress and like the zoo animals harmful stress will take its place.

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It's a nice thought, has been thought many times before. And once again, my opinion is to have a resource-based for the basic public necessities like food, water, energy, housing, waste management (it used to be called public utilities back when I was a kid) and allow free enterprise for goods and services that cannot be exploited to harm the general population.

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ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I watched that movie before and watched it again yesterday after seeing you mention it.

My opinion, is that at this point in time we can not enter into such an arrangement. We could do things  better, and more sustainably. However, the only reason the sewer worker at present, toils in the sewers is because, comparatively it pays well. Even in my case the only reason I work on half of what I work on is because it earns most of the money for me.

Also, I do need to improve or attempt to improve things. I just am wired to target on inefficient shit. When I drive, I play sim city with the structures, by that I mean, I notice drainage issues, stupid development layouts, poor road layouts, etc.. I just think like that. When I'm at the drive thru window I try to compute the cost of the labor to make my meal, and figure out the cost of the actual food, and figure the profit margin. It's probably a form of OCD, I guess.

Anyway, I'm a person that needs to improve things and identify problems, and I also like being rewarded for good ideas.

So, what would I do in this world? Well, I'd either make my purpose to fuck as many women as possible, or leave on a space ship to find a place to "improve" upon.

I don't toil for others direct benefit though, I couldn't see slaving away, to improve upon something with no reward, while others enjoy the exact same benefits for being drunk all day.

However, if spaceships are around by then, it won't be much of a problem, as the explorers will all leave anyway as it is much more interesting exploring unknowns than picking out curtains.

I'm not of the mindset that all people should enjoy the fruits of the world equally.  I'm of the mindset that all people should be able to potentially enjoy certain fruits if they work for it.

I mean why learn to read, write, or do math, in a world that requires nothing of you. Why do anything other than indulge base desires, as higher intellect is solely there to solve problems, in such a world there is little need for it.

Yeah, I'd probably leave for mars, on the first space flight...

But that is just me, most people just want to eat, fuck, gossip, and die. So, there should be enough people to keep earth stocked.

Having said all that, I do agree we could do a lot of things that would make everyone's life better, like sustainable structure, recyclable stuff, better methods of producing energy, etc... etc... But I don't think that vision of the world has a prayer for a long time.

We don't even have sewer maintenance robots, yet!!

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ORIGINAL: subfever


I'm rather surprised you watched the video twice, and didn't see yourself on the Interdisciplinary Team of Technicians. People like you would have the most to offer in a resource-based economy.

The system would truly open up new horizons of creativity and exploration.

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ORIGINAL: subfever
Indeed. But perhaps three generations into a RBE (resource-based-economy), love of power will be a relic of the past. Just something in the history books. People aren't born with a love of power. They pick it up in their environment.

I realize how difficult it is to understand these concepts, because we all tend to think in terms of what we know. Take politicians, power, and money out of the equation, and where will future generations pick up such notions of power?

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


how does one handle the logistics of a system like that?  It seems unsurmountable.

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ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

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ORIGINAL: subfever


I'm rather surprised you watched the video twice, and didn't see yourself on the Interdisciplinary Team of Technicians. People like you would have the most to offer in a resource-based economy.

The system would truly open up new horizons of creativity and exploration.

edited to add...
I've never in my life envisioned myself on a team of bureaucratic experts, which is what that appears to be, similar to the UN climate panel, or whatnot.
end edit..

Well, the central problem is that of credit. Why would someone devote their lives to the ups and downs of pursuing progress, if for nothing, but the same as the man, that spent his life banging his step daughter.

It just doesn't make sense to pursue a goal that offers no reward. Unless humanity is suddenly going to evolve into a selfless entity, devoid of all ego.

Is the reward supposed to be that the 99% of the population that does nothing more than shit, has more to consume. Or to facilitate stuffing more people on the same area, so they can do nothing but consume.

I just don't get the reward mechanism.

If sit on ass get x
If work my ass off get x
If fuck everything in sight get x
If do drugs fuck everything in sight eat 10000 calories a day get x.

Essentially i guess, I don't think the meaning of life is facilitating people to be useless.

Thus why I'd leave to where success was not an embedded expectation. (another planet)

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Kind of playing devil's advocate here.
Once again, we would have to genetically-engineer human beings to be nice.

I had the pleasure of spending time with my one-year-old grandson.  I noticed something.  A baby thinks in terms of self.  It's not taught to the baby, it's not a part of its environment, it is as basic as cell division.  A baby will go through the "mine!" stage and has to be taught to share.  It is not a natural inclination.  A baby already lives in a world of plenty, all its needs met, they have no concept of politicians, power or money.  Yet they are selfish creatures at their core.

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So just having generations living under such a system is no guarantee people will evolve.  My body has developed an autoimmune disease attacking my thyroid.  In an effort to lose weight, I have to eat constantly because otherwise my body thinks it will starve.  We have lived many, many generations without the possibility of starvation and yet my body still thinks it will.  So again, scarcity=value is somewhere as a gene.  When goods and services are not scarce, human beings who have not been genetically purified will look at other things to place value on.  Maybe that could be worse. 

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And I had another thought.  In this Eden, if I cannot own anything, what the hell is in my refigerator?  Do I get to eat the foods I like?  Since no one will buy food, and we would need to work to be fed and we can have no waste, do we chop up the elderly and useless and eat that?  Do I have to cook at a communal mess hall?  Has any of the details been really examined? 

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Ithaca, NY has such a system... as close as we can get here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ithaca, NY has such a system... as close as we can get here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours

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ORIGINAL: subfever



According to the presentation, it is estimated that after the system has been put in place, it would require 3 to 5% of the population to maintain it.

The primary reward would be the honor of serving humanity. I suppose that our value system would be much different that it is today too. Those who serve may be looked up to. Besides, there are many people today who do volunteer work.

One common concern I'm beginning to see of those who are resisting the RBE concept, is the worry that other people may not wish to contribute. I personally don't have an issue with what other people are doing, as long as they're not harming others. There are many people today who don't contribute.

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You know what? thinking about it, its the likes of me - the entrepreneur, that is the source of the problem. I never stop thinking, ever (except when asleep perhaps) of how I can make a buck or many out of this world.

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Now thats a good thing all in all in our current system, but it almost always relies on exploiting others or taking from others in some way to get that buck or many.

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And I have to say that whatever the socio-economic system I lived under, notwithstanding the environmental influences that have perhaps trained me to be as I am, I cant see me being any different. I'd either be head of a crime syndicate running corruption or a leading party official operating corruption, even in a Stalinist society, because having spotted an opportunity I'd do what I needed to in order to get ahead.

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Having said that, my ruthless streak comes with a strong liberal bias and interest in social justice and adhering to the law. Which is why I'll never, in a million years, be rich, but hopefully shall always be loved or at least respected.

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ORIGINAL: subfever

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


how does one handle the logistics of a system like that?  It seems unsurmountable.

Indeed, I initially had the very same thoughts.

But then I thought about the amazing productivity that occurred during WW2 and how people came together for a common cause.

Not to get off on a tangent of weapons of mass destruction vs. weapons of mass production, but it does seem clear that the only limitations we have, are those that we impose upon ourselves.

I guess in the end, it'll all depend upon what's more important to the majority of people.

Do we want to create a sustainable planet for our children and end hunger, pollution, greed, prejudice, war, etc... or are we willing to mortgage our children's future to be in a position to play the current system harder and smarter, accumulate more possessions, and gain advantage over others?

Just overcoming the obstacle of vested interests, and decades of cunning indoctrination of the masses will be a daunting task. But it all needs to start somewhere. It starts with communication, and perhaps reaching younger minds that haven't yet entrenched into the status quo.

I certainly don't expect the old, rich, white guys at the top of the food chain to embrace any of this. The thing about advantage is, those with advantage don't want to give it up. Their advantage becomes more important than the health of the planet, or even humanity itself.

Prejudice and greed are all around us, so most of us don't give it much thought. We just accept it as a part of life, and go on our merry way. I don't accept it.

You however, are someone who sees beyond himself. You understand what "kissing the hand that enslaves you" is.

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ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

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ORIGINAL: subfever



According to the presentation, it is estimated that after the system has been put in place, it would require 3 to 5% of the population to maintain it.

The primary reward would be the honor of serving humanity. I suppose that our value system would be much different that it is today too. Those who serve may be looked up to. Besides, there are many people today who do volunteer work.

One common concern I'm beginning to see of those who are resisting the RBE concept, is the worry that other people may not wish to contribute. I personally don't have an issue with what other people are doing, as long as they're not harming others. There are many people today who don't contribute.

Ultimately the whole thing is an exercise is dreaming, by that I mean, that there is no computer such as the one described, and none that even comes close. We don't have enough energy to go around and facilitate a good life, we don't have our production geared towards sustainability.

So, my point is even if the whole world today, switched to that system, it would not work. It's one of those things that require a level of technology to exist before it can come into being.

Now, there are plenty of steps which will probably take longer than all of us will live to achieve, and I prefer to think in those terms.

Like, Energy production, IMO, is the number one problem effecting all those other things, the reason we don't recycle more for example, is because many things once you account for the energy required to recycle it, transport the material to be recycled, sort it, chemicals required to break it down, etc... actually pollutes more than use new raw material.

Anyway, there is plenty to be done that most can agree on, in the here and now, than trying to formulate a vision of heaven, that the world at this time could not bring forth.

I'm all for Energy efficiency, cheap clean production, recyclable materials, better methods of building fabrication etc... More equitable set of rules.

If visions of Heaven on earth are required for some to get motivated, well, so be it, but the vision portrayed in that movie is not happening for a long time. I'd guess at least a century or two.

But most of it is the constraints and cost of energy, so I suppose if someone, or company created some means of dramatically improving that aspect it could happen sooner.

Or if we ever get a space elevator going, that would significantly increase our potential.

The vision is one of many.

My vision would be similar,  as in my vision is not everyone getting everything equally, but rather everyone getting everything they actually need equally. The difference is if I were to create a "warp engine" you'd have to pay me for the rights, for a period of like 50 years, before it entered the public domain. So, the difference is slight really, as in you'd be able to print up a cellphone from those older phone designs, but if you didn't want to contribute, in some way well, you probably couldn't afford the spanky Iphone version 20.

Anyway, I'm just concerned with the notion of providing the basics, I'm not at all attracted to the notion of equal reward for unequal effort, but again, we are not there yet.