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"The extermination and concentration of the bison" is by Dean Lueck and appears in the Journal of Legal Studies, June 2002.

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Sure when there is human excrement floating down the river we'll blame the big coal mines..come on now.

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The video would be easier to watch if it were a presentation by a visible speaker rather than a disembodied voice.

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Generally, though, I think some of the points made are actually somewhat true, if not obviously true for relatively-informed viewers.

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What wasn't clear from what I watched was how 'no government' would realistically function (as if mercnbeth sneaked in with some of his voodoo mantras) or whether 'no money' was being advocated.

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Still, there's something to be said for even attempting to achieve a comprehensive model.

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ORIGINAL: subfever

Using FR

Bernard Lietaer, designer of the EU currency sysytem, said "Greed and competition are not the result of immutable human temperment. Greed and fear of scarcity are in fact, being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using. We can produce enough food to feed everybody, but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it. The scarcity is in our national currencies. In fact, the job of the central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive."

Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to why the money creators at the top of the food chain choose to maintain this system?

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Yes, scarcity is a reality. However, as I presume you've read, the actual designer of the EU currency system openly admitted that scarcity in the monetary systems is intentional.

What do you suppose is their motivation for maintaining scarcity?

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Numerous industry studies (those who have a vested interest in pushing your premis) have shown that the amount of energy saved by consumers turning off lights and so forth when not in use causes minimal change in total electrical usage.
Electricity is really quite cheap and easy to produce.  I have not had a electric bill in 25 years and for the 25 years before that I had only the minimum charge because the municipality I lived in at that time required an electrical,water and sewer connection to each habitable dwelling no matter if you used them or not.

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ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

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"The extermination and concentration of the bison" is by Dean Lueck and appears in the Journal of Legal Studies, June 2002.

Why are you using a legal study to discuss a historical phenomenon? It clearly says in the abstract that this is a study done "using a property rights model of renewable resource production."

Furthermore, I haven't read the whole thread, nor do I wish to, but as far as I can see, you keep saying you're working on your Masters degree, but in what? Are you working on an MS or an MA? What is your field? I'm not seeing this information anywhere.

Alright, for a whole second there, I almost thought you were credible until this:

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Sure when there is human excrement floating down the river we'll blame the big coal mines..come on now.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really this ignorant? When I initially saw the word excrement in your original post, I thought you really intended to refer to the pollution caused by coal mining sources. But this is ridiculous! Name your source for this ludicrous bit of BS.

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of what you've written because I can see that it's not worth wasting my time on.

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ORIGINAL: countrychick
Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much.

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ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

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ORIGINAL: countrychick
Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much.

Actually, the planet isn't the problem. There's more than enough of everything we need; we just aren't clever enough to use it efficiently enough yet.

Carbon is an amazing element. You can make a phenomenally diverse array of substances out of it. And there's obviously enough to go around.

Likewise, the sun is an incredibly intense source of energy, once we learn to tap it properly. In the meantime, we have enough uranium and thorium to easily last us the next several thousand years, even if we continue to increase our energy demands exponentially.

There's enough to go around.

What we need is the will to use the resources we have available right now effectively, and the intelligence to find newer, more efficient, more clever ways to access and utilize those resources.

Stick some U-238 traveling-wave reactor plants every few miles along the coast, and use them to crack seawater. You'll get all your necessary metallics right out of the water you're desalinating, and produce 200 times enough water to meet the world's drinking and agriculture needs. Use the extra power to pull CO2 right out of the air, solving all our greenhouse problems and giving us more carbon than we know what to do with - pour some more power into that CO2, and it'll make all sorts of fun long-chain molecules. Remember that all chemical processes work both ways - if a fuel cell or a car engine can turn carbohydrates into CO2 and energy, than a "reverse fuel cell" can be fed energy to turn CO2 back into fuel (and from there, into plastic or whatever else we want).

If we had the will, we could right now begin a process that would end all forms of scarcity, and that would settle into a completely sustainable process. We just need to think practically and intelligently about our options.

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ORIGINAL: countrychick


Okay, but how long to get all of these things up and running? At what cost and to whom?

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And can we make food out of carbon?

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Can we create clothing from carbon?

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Honestly I don't know and I'm hoping you can tell me that. Theoretically perhaps this could work but the question is how to we get it there? And what sorts of negative affects on ocean life among other things will these U-238 reactors have?

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I dont think we would ever end all forms of scarcity.. not in our life times and I dont think in our childrens either. Look at the poverty within your own country let alone around the world. As a planet haven't we been working on things like that for years and years now? There will always be red-tape issues, political divisions even things as trivial as religious beliefs and cultural backgrounds already do hold up progress.

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What are the solutions to that?

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How much longer does he think we can feed everyone, and what will they be eating? ...

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Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much.

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ORIGINAL: countrychick

On a completely philosophical note, what are the options for fixing the system? I'll agree that its not perfect, it does have a certain tendency to make the rich richer and the poor poorer While radical ideas for a complete overhaul of a system may seem nice in theory, in practicality they would be all but impossible. I've been thinking over the past few days, are the compromises that could be made? That encompass the ideas of the video, working more towards a system that does not have such disproportions among people? I think this is where the real strength is in society, those people who can arbitrage between the far left and the far right to come up with something that neither really loves but that in the end does provide a greater good to the people.. Any ideas?

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People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without.

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ORIGINAL: subfever

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People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without.

Bingo!

More food for thought, most of us today live better than kings did several generations ago.

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minimal change in total electrical usage.
Electricity is really quite cheap and easy to produce. I have not had a electric bill in 25 years and for the 25 years before that I had only the minimum charge because the municipality I lived in at that time required an electrical,water and sewer connection to each habitable dwelling no matter if you used them or not.

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ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

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ORIGINAL: subfever

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People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without.

Bingo!

More food for thought, most of us today live better than kings did several generations ago.

YAY! My meme is spreading! Did you hear this as the "strawberries in winter" parable?