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Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 7:19:39 PM

wisdomtogive

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Upon reading an article on rebellion by Raven Shadowborne on the internet, I started to ponder the concept of punishment in this catagory. I do have to agree with her point of view that many submissives/slaves do not rebell without an underlining cause. She suggested to find that cause and communicate about it, verses the proverbial punishment.

Sir seems to follow her theory as well. Though I am basically not a brat, there has been a rebellion going on within me, since I moved here almost 2 months ago. He already knew there would be a period for Us to adjust to each other, plus my own adjusting to living as a M/s couple 24/7. He also realized that almost 5 years without me having a committed relationship, let a-lone, live-in one, would intensify my personal struggle in being owned. Throughout all this, he has never felt the need to punish me when I show signs of rebellion. He knows that I am going through my own personal duel inside.
This is working for us, and has aided me in trusting him more and more as the days go by. Through this, the dueling 'wisdoms' have settled down a lot. One factor always prevails in my mind through his direction, He is in charge. He owns me. His methods have earned my respect for Him as my Dom and owner.

Though it has proven to be a better direction for us' communication verses punishment, I know it might not be for others. I do wonder how others view punishment for rebellion. I am basically referring to the referrence I made about Raven Shadowborne's view that a lot of rebellion can actually stem from problems the submissive is having via the outside world, or her/his own inner turmoil.

Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why?

Submissives/slaves if you ever had a period of rebellion how did your Dom deal with it? Was the way they had chosen productive in your own personal healing? If so why and if not why?

Thank you everyone ahead of time for posting your thoughts.
wisdomtogive

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 7:23:28 PM

Smutmonger

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Punishment is a short sighted thing. I only see use in it as a form of closure for a negative emotional state a girl may drive herself to.

I've been involved in D/s for far too long to be able to see any validity in doing more than course corrections. If my ability to inspire and envision is so poor as to lead to her removal of respect-*I* deserve what happens-not her.

Worth is a thing no one can dodge aspiring to.

No matter what you identify as.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 7:54:33 PM

DrkJourney

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If it's a genuine rebellion, I prefer to discuss it, mainly to let him know that he does not need to do this to get my attention. If it's for something deeper, then we work through it. I don't see punishing him as a solution. It certainly doesn't work with my neice and nephew, only makes things worse. lol

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 8:08:16 PM

sweetboundesire

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There are not enough facts to give any advice.

What sort of rebellion are you inclined toward?

What is it causing you to do?

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 8:17:10 PM

DWCskitten

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~Fast Reply~
i've never rebelled in any of my relationships, but i would think that communication would be the best thing to try first..... discuss and try to get to the bottom of things, the reason(s) for the rebellion, and see if they can be corrected. If things cannot be resolved then take different measures, depending upon the reason(s) for uproar.

~kitten~

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 8:28:37 PM

alhamdullilah

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Rebellion without punishment. Now where's the fun in that??!!

I know. I know.

When my kids were very young, I heard it said eloquently, as I cannot relate it to you now, that punishment is meant to be reserved for acts of rebellion, "willful disobedience", but never mistakes. Some Masters, Doms, Dommes... will likely subscribe to different theory and be inclined to inflict punishment for error. I suspect there are even those who would limit punishment to error, thereby avoiding the risk of inadvertently rewarding a sub or slave who rebels for attention. After all, some of us have been guilty of that behavior - I mean, some of them - them others!

I have learned through my subjective experience two things to be true for me. The first is that in order to dominate me, a man needs to be intelligent and perceptive enough to reason beyond my ability to manipulate. Please don't misunderstand. I don't say this because I believe a slave should ever seek to be manipulative; on the contrary, I believe one must seek to avoid it - always. I nonetheless find that it's best if manipulating him would be futile. In addition to wisdom, a desire for what's best for me in order to facilitate becoming a more disciplined, healthy and obedient slave, are the larger portion of what make a Master more inclined to punish or reward me in ways that will most successfully and efficiently achieve that end. So, he will know me well enough, as a soul, to recognize when and how and whether to punish me or reward me in order to guide me in the direction he chooses.

Sometimes, of course, the intellect is there without the best of intentions for the slave, giving him the power to mold her without the wisdom or morality to care about the quality of the final form.

So, punishment often ends up being something very unappealing... just in case some inner masochist were rearing her little head. The second thing I've learned the hard way, however, is that just because the little masochist gets what she thinks she wants, it doesn't mean that I'm going to like it in the least! I have been guilty in my life of rebelling when I knew the punishment would be physical. But I discovered that the combination of reality (I might appreciate the exertion of force over my will but the pain is a reality I don't care for nor wish to endure on repitition) and the keen awareness that I have disappointed my Master and disgraced myself has a dramatic impact on me physically and psychologically. And I've found that the latter realizations are sufficient to put further rebellion out of my thoughts!

In simpler terms, smart Doms know that punishment isn't always the best solution for a situation, guage their actions by what will be most effective and, hopefully, what is in the best interest of the sub/slave he masters, and know that if employing pain as punishment, they'll likely have to make it hurt enough that the submissive doesn't get off on it in any way.

What worked for me won't work for a pain slut. What works for the next sub or slave that posts may not work for me. I don't see how it's possible to espouse strategy or ideal when every Dom/Domme, every submissive is unique in nature and intent. I know what I prefer! I prefer to be led in a manner that will have a profound and, ideally, positive effect on me and, therefore desire to belong to a man who will know how.

(Judging by the length of my post, when he comes along, he'll probably want to gag me! Sorry!!! :P)

-llilah

(in reply to wisdomtogive)

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 8:58:40 PM

Heulwen

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I would say "rebellion" means something isn't working in the submission, time to talk.

Punishment - hmn - I don't think punishment has a place in an adult relationship most of the time. If there's disobedience, there's an underlying reason why, and that needs discussed. Punishment is something that can sharpen a sub's focus on fulfilling a difficult task/order that he or she and her/his Dom/me agree needs to happen. But I see it as a last resort and as a focus-sharpening on something both want.

I'm not talking about fun punishment here! That's a whole different topic.

(in reply to alhamdullilah)

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 9:02:47 PM

DarlingSavage

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FR

Oh, punish me baby! Punish me really fucking HARD!

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 9:13:55 PM

littlegirlangel

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I go through my own periods of rebellion. The underlying causes are usually different and seem to come at a time when I'm changing drastically internally, either I'm reshifting old beliefs or a new trigger has popped up ect. Daddy is really good at these times about finding out what exactly is going on in my head and he'll ask me, "How can I make it better?" it can be as simple as a hug to something like a beating if I need it or even knife play or just a chance to cuddle and forget for a bit.

(in reply to wisdomtogive)

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 9:17:37 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why?

If there is rebellion there is a discussion to address the understanding of the type of dynamic I require along with, first, a disclosure of how long (and for what reasons) she would feel she needs before she can actually offer what I require and, second, a mutually agreed upon timeframe up to which the issues are expected to be remedied by.

If these cannot be arrived at or if after the deadline has expired there are recurring failings at submission then I am most likely to presume that, whatever chemistry there may be, compatibility is just not in the cards and cut ties.

I likely have this view because my style of dominance is not validated by instances of my being able to 'enforce it' (so punishment would be kind of pointless for this purpose).

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 9:31:48 PM

lovingpet

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Rebellion is a marker that tells us to evaluate ourselves, our relationship, and each other carefully because there is a problem. It is not always a bad thing or something that will ruin the relationship, but it is a sign that there is some kind of change going on. Usually it is, as other posters have said, as shift inside of me. Sometimes it is a twist in the dynamic. On occasion it has been my partner that has had things going on that have lead to some sort of confusion or lack of ease on my part.

To me, it is not the rebellion itself that must be punished. It is possible, however, for the consequences of that rebellion to need punishment. Whether it is closure for the emotional fallout for either partner or because there has been actual damage done to the relationship, it becomes important for there to be an reckoning in some cases. I don't think that rebellion necessarily warrants punishment, but I think it can help in the overall process of rebellion and reconciliation.

lovingpet

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/17/2010 9:49:35 PM

alhamdullilah

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lovingpet put me in mind of the one thing about punishment I dislike being without: Absolution. I suppose the validity of that would depend upon the Dom's perspective but, as wisdom inquired about experience, this is what comes to mind. I was encouraged by my previous owner to feel a sense of relief, of having paid with my flesh for my sins, so to speak... and I suppose I still think of it that way.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 1:18:03 AM

crazyml

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Really brilliant thread!

And I agree wholeheartedly that it's important to understand the underlying issues. A serious rebellion would be a clear signal to me that there was an issue that needed to be resolved.

I'm with NihilusZero that the outcome may simply be that it's time to cut the ties.

I also think that lovingpet is right to point out that sometimes the consequences of the rebellion may need to be punished.

For me it really really depends on the situation - In the past I've addressed rebellion simply by talking, with no punishment, but on a small number of occasions I've listened to the issues and worked with my partner on how to address them, then I've applied punishment for the behaviour - because I expect a sub to raise issues in an appropriate way rather than by simply being rebellious or disobedient.

(in reply to wisdomtogive)

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 4:33:38 AM

DesFIP

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I'm not willfully disobedient just to say to him "fuck you". If there's a problem, we have always tried to solve it.
I tend to get a bad attitude as the day goes on. Once we realized that this occurs when it's been a long time since I ate, we now pay attention to the time and stop for lunch. With my blood sugar no longer plummeting, the attitude disappears. No amount of punishment would ever fix that.

And if I did disobey just to tell him off, that would indicate a total breakdown of communication and a boatload of resentment, which also are not things that punishment would solve.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 4:51:54 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

I would say "rebellion" means something isn't working

And when something isn't working, it is time to talk.

- LA

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 4:51:54 AM

fadedshadow

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i'm not sure if you would call it rebellion in my case but there were times when i questioned many things and was very apprehensive about doing some things. i wasn't punished for how i was feeling but we talked about it as adults and it resulted in me being more confident in myself as well as strive to better myself. so if it's genuine rebellion (or whatever you wish to call it) then it shoudln't be punishable. that's how i feel anyway

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 5:50:55 AM

ownedbyPF

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I'm going to go away from the fringe a little on this one. Sometimes rebellion doesn't mean something is wrong perse, it just means she is scoping out the fence. :) Especially when you first start living together... at least that was my experience.

Settling in to living with someone can be hard, especailly if it's a D/s or M/s relationship. Especially if you are blending families. Now when we did it, it was great in lots of ways, but I think I pushed against walls a little in order to figure out how solid those walls really were.

I did get punished. I needed that though. I needed to know that things hadn't changed just because we were living together. I needed to know that the same rules and expectations toward behavior were in place. We talked about it, but honestly alot of times I didn't even know why I was acting the way I was until he turned me into a blubbering mess. Then it all came pouring out.

It didn't take very many of these moments for me to settle in, to relax into it all, to feel secure that nothing had changed. The worse thing he could have done was coddle me, or give me space, or take it to mean that something was fundamentally wrong with the relationship. I was looking for its' strength.. I was looking for the assurance that things weren't going to be.... slack now. But that's just me and how I was and like I said, I usually didn't realize I was doing that until I let it all go in the form of hysterical weeping. I needed him to get me there in order for the fog to clear and the reason to appear.
~s

edited cuz i can't spell today

< Message edited by ownedbyPF -- 3/18/2010 6:27:32 AM >

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 5:59:45 AM

Kana

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Good thread. Nice to see someone talking about the underlying issues as opposed to symptoms.
Personally I don't like the idea of punishment-if required, I prefer to see any consequences as behavioral modification. Actions are taken, sometimes mistakes occur, corrective measures are needed. No big deal, like oiling a gun or tuning up an engine. That's life. You want something to perform at peak performance, you have to keep it in tip top shape. Slaves are no exception.

Now if a consistent pattern of behavior is going on that I do not approve of, at some point, and pretty soon (I hate repeating myself so I don't have much tolerence for having the same discussion over and over) a State of the Union discussion will occur where we are going to get down to causes and conditions. I'm too old, been around to long and just don't have the time to waste on rebellion. The causation will be rooted out and settled or she is going to be moving on down the road.

Introductory statements aside, I am a huge believer in communication. I want to know what is going on inside of her. I'm not a mind reader, I failed Psychic 101 at the local community college. I ask questions, lots. I have girls write reports. I talk to her every day. It's amazing how many difficulties can be avoided simply be creating an atmosphere of trust and openness. I suspect that my emphasis on knowing what is going with her internally (I'm a pig remember. I want in her head, her heart, her mind, her walls. I want all of her.) has helped me avoid having to deal with this issue often over the past decade.

When consequences do come down, both good and bad, the reasons are laid out for her, how I feel, why I am reacting this way and the reasoning behind the consequence she is getting. She is allowed a period in which to speak for herself, thus our communication is a two way street (I abhor excuses, but even the lowliest criminal has historically been able to beg the court for mercy). No secrets. It's all out in the open. Lastly, I believe in absolution. Once a consequence has been paid, it is not brought up again unless the behavior is repeated. Nobody likes having their mistakes rubbed in their face-I certainly don't. Thus, we can both move on, leaving the issue behind as resolved.

And Owned by PF raises a valid point-sometimes rebellion really is just testing the fences. Sometimes a girl will push the edges a bit, just to get that smack down, remind herself that she serves the right one, that he remains firm, unplayable and the one in charge.

< Message edited by Kana -- 3/18/2010 6:09:35 AM >

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 6:14:17 AM

wisdomtogive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

Punishment is a short sighted thing. I only see use in it as a form of closure for a negative emotional state a girl may drive herself to.

I've been involved in D/s for far too long to be able to see any validity in doing more than course corrections. If my ability to inspire and envision is so poor as to lead to her removal of respect-*I* deserve what happens-not her.

Worth is a thing no one can dodge aspiring to.

No matter what you identify as.

Thank you for your input. Much of your way of thinking, Sir aspires too as well.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 6:16:08 AM

wisdomtogive

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Sweetboundesire
I am sorry if my post was not clear enough. I really am not looking for advice but wanted to hear other's opinions regarding if rebellion warrants punishment.

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