RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Abortion


I'm against ALL abortions
  2% (4)
I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance
  26% (38)
I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk
  6% (10)
I'm for it being legal, but I hate it
  23% (34)
I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk
  4% (6)
Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved
  6% (10)
I don't care one way or the other
  3% (5)
I believe there is life at conception
  13% (19)
I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months
  6% (10)
I believe life only begins after birth
  6% (10)


Total Votes : 146
(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


barelynangel -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:40:10 AM)

Juliaoceania -- i was replying to the quote, and since you didn't write the quoted material, its obvious my response to that quote wasn't to you. I don't see in that post where i spoke to you. Since i quoted the information, its logical to believe i am responding to the part i quoted -- if you didn't write the quote, then its not to you.

angel




slvemike4u -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:46:42 AM)

Not for nothing and irregardless of statistics....sometimes the shoe is on the other foot....I raised my son alone...and much like mothers all across this country I too needed a court order to compel my son's mother to pay her child support,I was lucky she was gainfully employed and once the court order went into effect...she duly paid,not always on time...but she paid.
But not till after a judge issued the order
But the truth is I wouldn't have had it any other way...he was/is my son and the ability to say goodnight and good morning to him each and every day was...as they say in the commercials PRICELESS.




juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:52:44 AM)

quote:

Yeah the "life's not fair" argument doesn't really hold water here, since the laws are supposed to be fair and just. The "it's about the kids" argument is the exact same argument used by pro-lifers. And to be honest if a woman chooses to bring a child into the world knowing that the man, from the start, does NOT want to be a father, it's up to her to take responsibility for her choice.

Using the "if you choose to have sex you are obligated to be a parent" argument for one gender but not the other falls into the category of legal gender discrimination.



So what you are saying is "fuck the kid, its a man's world"... well guess what? It isn't. Any man worth a shit in my mind wouldn't want to take a woman's right to choose away from them because it might make it less a man's world...

Like Sinergy always has said, it is up to him to protect himself against unwanted pregnancy... so he had a vasectomy. He paid his child support, insured his kids... etc etc etc. This is what a MAN does. He takes responsibility... he mans up.... he doesn't blame a woman for controlling his decisions. When he was young he wore a raincoat so he wouldn't make any unwanted babies. He is pro-choice. He knows the repercussions of choice not being there for women... back alley abortion clinics, men controlling women through their wombs... abusive men holding offspring up a a way to control women.

So not all men agree with you on this account... I do not involve myself with men that are anti choice, who do not pay their child support for existing kids, etc. I only date men that take responsibility. I take responsibility for my backyard, and I do not want to hear from men that don't




barelynangel -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:53:23 AM)

You know, i don't really have that big of a problem with people's opinions about abortion. But what i DO have a hard time with are women (it seems this is the majority rather than Men) who want to flatten the rights of MEN. And the only real arguments i hear for this are -- well women have been treated like crap, or women didn't have rights for a long time, or men are scum, or women are the editome of perfection in our society, or as someone recently pointed out that if a pregnancy occurs somehow its the MAN'S fault because HE didn't take precautions etc.

I mean i am sorry but these excuses seem so emotional and illogical and the exact opposite of what maintaining or having rights means. You don't trample on someone else's rights to gain what you pretend should be women's rights. I mean people bitch it wasn't fair when Men had all the rights but it appears that revenge and vengence in many causes is what is sought NOT the fair applicability of rights.

This doesn't make sense to me and to me its completely irrational arguments. I get women want equal rights, but how are rights equal when you pretty much state that the product of a Man and a woman is solely the woman's to do with as she pleases until such time that product is viable and then the Man damn well better pay up? I think in situations where one parent wants the child, the fetus should be allowed to progress to viability and once viable given to the parent who wants the child and the other parent if they still wish have all parental rights removed including support.

I do agree that if both parents want an abortion then it should be had. i also agree if both parents want to progress the fetus to viability and the deal with the separate parenting concept, it should be had.

But this bullshit of sob story as juliaoceania gave of i was treated so bad by my man so fuck him and generalization is well irrational determination and i would think MOST of us would have a fit if we could prove our politicians were doing same with our rights or Men saying the same for women.

That's what is i think frustrating me on this.

angel

angel




kittinSol -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:54:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I don't believe your life means that women should have MORE say over their fetus' or children than men.



Your "belief" is irrelevant. Women have more say over the product of their pregnancies, for obvious biological reasons. Men have had issues with this lack of reproductive power for times immemorial: in fact, this impotence in the face of feminine power has been suggested as an explanation for the development of patriarchy.

If they don't want to take the risk to get a chick up the duff, there are easy ways to prevent it. Meanwhile, women will still get up the duff, because they've got what men want, and they will continue to have the final say over whether the pregnancy should carry on or not. When men find a way to grow a fetus all the way up to nine months à la Brave New World, they'll be able to whine and cry about it more effectively.

Don't hold your breath quite yet. She's not called "Mother Nature" for nothing [:)] .




Moonhead -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:54:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Multiple choices are allowed.

I wish I could have squeezed about 3 more options in, in regards to choices #8,9, and 10, allowing for a pro-choice or pro-life angle on each of them.



You missed an option, Level: didn't Plato think that the soul only enters the body when the child starts talking?




juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:59:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

juliaoceania -- WAHHHHH, your life was so hard. You were the only women ever having to deal with this type of issue. You know i have no sympathy for your life, none whatsoever. I don't believe your life means that women should have MORE say over their fetus' or children than men.

You do realize that the concept of deadbeat women are on the rise due to fathers taking the kids? But i guess that's okay huh, cause well gee a Man won't have it so easy.

You seem to me to be the complete opposite of rights and now want to strip men of same and it sounds like simply beause you are bitter over your ex and your life and men in general.

Sorry sob stories don't mean much to me, i have seen some of the most horrific things people have struggled through, and whether you agree or not, the murder of a child to someone CAN in fact devastate them for life.

angel


I want no sympathy. I wear my big girl pants. I am proud of my life. I would live it no other way. I love my son more than life itself. I will say that the fact my ex did not pay for his son lessened our standard of living. This is not so upsetting for me, but it hurt not to be able to give my son what he deserved, the support and love of both a mother and a father. It isn't about me, it is about my son... always was for me.

Now you have repeatedly stated you do not care about kids... I believe you... so therefore I am done posting to you. Like I said, this thread is changing no minds... you have decided those with the penis matter the most... go you!




juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:00:57 AM)

quote:

You know, i don't really have that big of a problem with people's opinions about abortion. But what i DO have a hard time with are women (it seems this is the majority rather than Men) who want to flatten the rights of MEN.


I get it, you only care about adult men that are old enough to sexually reproduce... the rest of us need to bow down because it is their world, we just live in it.




Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:01:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


So what you are saying is "fuck the kid, its a man's world"... well guess what? It isn't.


No. I am saying that having sex does not obligate one to be a parent if the issue is addressed early enough, and that if one person makes a unilateral decision to bring a child into the world against the wishes of the other parent, it should be that person's sole responsibility to care for the child.


quote:

Any man worth a shit in my mind wouldn't want to take a woman's right to choose away from them because it might make it less a man's world...


This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a woman has the right to choose, it has to do with whether the woman has the obligation to take responsibility for her choice.

quote:

Like Sinergy always has said, it is up to him to protect himself against unwanted pregnancy... so he had a vasectomy. He paid his child support, insured his kids... etc etc etc. This is what a MAN does. He takes responsibility... he mans up.... he doesn't blame a woman for controlling his decisions. When he was young he wore a raincoat so he wouldn't make any unwanted babies. He is pro-choice. He knows the repercussions of choice not being there for women... back alley abortion clinics, men controlling women through their wombs... abusive men holding offspring up a a way to control women.


I don't understand why you feel this only applies to men.

Women can get tubal ligations to protect from pregnancy. Women can use the pill. The pill as well as condoms are able to fail, and there should be a way for both people to avoid parenthood if that is the case.

There are also women who try to use pregnancy to 'trap' a man into staying with them, a form of emotional abuse designed to control men. I don't get your hostility here...and more importantly I don't understand why you feel that choosing to have sex without sterilization, or without protection, or even with faulty protection, automatically obligates a man to be a parent, when you're so vehemently against the exact same situation obligating a woman to be a parent.

quote:


So not all men agree with you on this account... I do not involve myself with men that are anti choice, who do not pay their child support for existing kids, etc. I only date men that take responsibility. I take responsibility for my backyard, and I do not want to hear from men that don't



This really has nothing to do with whether men agree with me or not. This has to do, IMO, with equal protection under the law, and whether or not a man or a woman exercises their right to choose is irrelevant to whether or not they should be denied that right entirely.




juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:02:26 AM)

quote:

No. I am saying that having sex does not obligate one to be a parent if the issue is addressed early enough, and that if one person makes a unilateral decision to bring a child into the world against the wishes of the other parent, it should be that person's sole responsibility to care for the child.


I wasn't posting to you...







kittinSol -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:02:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Now you have repeatedly stated you do not care about kids... I believe you... so therefore I am done posting to you. Like I said, this thread is changing no minds... you have decided those with the penis matter the most... go you!



Small aside: I hear that Gor is a sausage-shaped planet.




Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:03:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

No. I am saying that having sex does not obligate one to be a parent if the issue is addressed early enough, and that if one person makes a unilateral decision to bring a child into the world against the wishes of the other parent, it should be that person's sole responsibility to care for the child.


I wasn't posting to you...



Um...you directly quoted my post and posted in reply to it.




juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:14:11 AM)

quote:

No. I am saying that having sex does not obligate one to be a parent if the issue is addressed early enough, and that if one person makes a unilateral decision to bring a child into the world against the wishes of the other parent, it should be that person's sole responsibility to care for the child.


I would agree with that, but it is about supporting the child once it is born in my eyes. You live in a generous country... I don't.,... perhaps you would feel differently in a place like the US I don't understand why you feel this only applies to men.

quote:

Women can get tubal ligations to protect from pregnancy. Women can use the pill. The pill as well as condoms are able to fail, and there should be a way for both people to avoid parenthood if that is the case.

There are also women who try to use pregnancy to 'trap' a man into staying with them, a form of emotional abuse designed to control men. I don't get your hostility here...and more importantly I don't understand why you feel that choosing to have sex without sterilization, or without protection, or even with faulty protection, automatically obligates a man to be a parent, when you're so vehemently against the exact same situation obligating a woman to be a parent.


Responsibility does not only belong to the man. Once children are born it belongs to both...

My point is that I do not associate with men that feel differently about it







juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:17:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Now you have repeatedly stated you do not care about kids... I believe you... so therefore I am done posting to you. Like I said, this thread is changing no minds... you have decided those with the penis matter the most... go you!



Small aside: I hear that Gor is a sausage-shaped planet.


I wouldn't know, it isn't on my list of places I want to go....




Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:20:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would agree with that, but it is about supporting the child once it is born in my eyes. You live in a generous country... I don't.,... perhaps you would feel differently in a place like the US I don't understand why you feel this only applies to men.


I'm actually American, I just moved to Australia in 2007.


quote:

Responsibility does not only belong to the man. Once children are born it belongs to both...


Except the choice of whether or not the child is actually born is up to one person. I'm not saying that a father can at any time decide not to be a father, but I do feel that if a woman has a 4 or 5 month window to choose whether or not to be a parent, a man should have the same opportunity.

In fact I'd imagine fewer women would bring children into the world if they were aware that they would have to take full responsibility, as opposed to women who have children with the expectation that they'll be able to sue for child support but can't manage to force the father to pay it. It will actually help women make more educated decisions about whether they will really be able to afford the child that only they want.

And as a tangent, the argument of "the child's rights outweigh the parent's rights" would, if taken at face value, also apply to pro-life arguments.
quote:


My point is that I do not associate with men that feel differently about it


Fair enough.




Lucienne -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:41:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I completely agree, my comments were referring to a previous post in which I talked about abdicating responsibility before birth. Though since it's a lot more probable for a man to not know he has a kid than for a woman, I'd say a grace period of 4 months from the date he found out he had a child - parallel to the abortion window - to legally abdicate all responsibility.

A father who doesn't do that is in the same boat as a woman who decides not to abort. They're a parent.


I agree that ideally men should have the option to terminate their parental responsibility. But such a scheme implicates broader societal concerns than legalized abortion. I realize many pro-life people believe that legalized abortion is a stain on our nation and imagine that we're being deprived of a million baby einsteins, but really, abortion leaves almost no footprint. There was potential life, and then the potential was gone. But if a man abandons his parental responsibility and the child is born, the state frequently steps in and financially supports the child to make up for the father's lack of contribution. Lawyers working for family services don't just start filling for paternity/support orders on random people, they target the parents of children who are currently being supported by state welfare programs. I'd say this practical reality - abortion costs the state nothing vs. termination of rights of a born child would cost the state a lot- is what accounts for the inability of men to get a "fair" deal in this case. Personally, I support robust social programs that would provide heavily subsidized health care and day care for all children, so in my dreamy dream there is a lot more freedom to recognize a man's right to terminate his parental responsibility because it doesn't come at a particular cost for the child.

quote:

Yeah the "life's not fair" argument doesn't really hold water here, since the laws are supposed to be fair and just. The "it's about the kids" argument is the exact same argument used by pro-lifers. And to be honest if a woman chooses to bring a child into the world knowing that the man, from the start, does NOT want to be a father, it's up to her to take responsibility for her choice.

Using the "if you choose to have sex you are obligated to be a parent" argument for one gender but not the other falls into the category of legal gender discrimination.



I don't think "it's about the kids" argument is exactly the same as that made by the pro-lifers. An unborn child is not a person under the US Constitution and does not enjoy the rights and protections of personhood. Once the child is born, he is a person and that gives the child a seat at the legal table to argue for his interests. Of course, kids can't really do that, they have guardians do it for them. And in most family law considerations "best interests of the children" is the preeminent concern. Having seen more family court than I'd like, I read Julia's post with a picture of parents who approach their children like property to be argued over and dominated rather than determining what is best for the child and figuring out their own place in that scheme.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:49:04 AM)

I'm completely for abortion. A couple years ago me and a girlfriend went through that, and getting that abortion was the best choice we could have made. We used protection, the whole nine years. The condom simply broke. Having a child would have fucked both our lives up. Bringing a child into the world when we weren't in the best position to care for it and provide for it is totally irresponsible. We would have ended up going down that road of government dependence, becoming nothing more than an appendage of the state.

My life is a thousand times better because of that abortion.

Now when it comes to the right to choose, that's her choice, because her body is her jurisdiction. I find the idea of other people reaching into my body and telling me what I can and can't do repulsive on every level. If a woman wants to keep that baby, or go to the Oreck man so he can vacuum it out, that's her body and her choice. I lucked out, I'm a guy, I don't ever have to deal with nine months of a parasite gestating inside me. You women can keep your claim to pregnancy, I don't ever want it.




Lucienne -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:54:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

You have no concept of what right to privacy is as you have been expounding upon, as i said your right to privacy.

As i stated earlier -- you are off on what you believe the Constitution states. It gives you a right to privacy as to your records but it does not give the right to do whatever you want with your own body.


There is a common law right to privacy, protected by certain torts (Invasion of Privacy). There are statutes that create specific rights to privacy (HIPAA, anti- private wiretapping statutes). And then there is the bundle of penumbric joy that is the Constitutional Right to Privacy. The fundamental and unlimited right to kill my 10 week old fetus, along with my fundamental right to engage in sodomy and deviant sexual acts are, indeed, found in the Constitution. A decent outline of the Constitutional Right to Privacy can be found here




barelynangel -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:55:57 AM)

quote:

I get it, you only care about adult men that are old enough to sexually reproduce... the rest of us need to bow down because it is their world, we just live in it.



juliaoceania, it seems you are VERY irrational about this subject. Your quote above is beyond ridiculous lol. Are you really that pissed off at men that you would state such bullshit and imply things i have never said. YES, i do feel MEN should have a fucking say in abortion, why, because i have SEEN what it does to them when a woman who is a bitch doesn't give a fuck outside of being fucked decides to abort a fetus and the Man believes doing so is MURDER of a CHILD. Yeah there are women who are and many are just as bad as the Men you deride and think are scum. Only YOU don't seem to want to get that cause well gee Men have treated women wrong, men have done this men have done that -- ha ha PAY BACK seems to be your motto.

You really need to go back and READ what is being said instead of in your irrationality implying BS that simply isn't being said.

if you read my posts, i advocate the RIGHTS OF THE PARENTS -- not each individual - i believe if the mother wants the child and the father says abort then the child should be given a chance to live. I believe if the father wants the child and the mother wants to abort -- the child should be given a chance to live and the father raise it. I believe if both parents want an abortion then abortion it is. I believe if both parents want the child to come from the union then it will if at all medically possible. So your above quote is well for the lack of better word plan bullshit. All you are preaching about is the rights of women and as i said it sounds like you are a bitter woman who was done wrong by your man and now fuck all men and their rights cause well women were done wrong in the past.

If that's how you feel fine but until you can rationally look at the RIGHTS of BOTH people involved and their RIGHT to determine what should happen with the product of their union, you aren't to me looking at this rationally but irrationally based on how you and women have been done wrong and now its pay back.

Also where have i stated i don't CARE ABOUT KIDS -- WHAT THE FUCK? Are you content in your irrationality to state things i have NEVER IMPLIED OR SAID? SHOW ME where i have ever stated that. damn girl you are beyond irrationality on this subject you are now spouting crap.

yeah you need to be done not only with me but this thread because now you are just making shit up in your need to make this a big drama issue. You disappoint me -- simply because i DO respect your position, i USE TO BE HARDCORE PROCHOICE. But now i am not.

As i said, you are willing i believe to sacrifice women's LIVES to prove your point, i just hope if abortion ever becomes illegal, some naive girl doesn't find YOU because i fully believe based on your posts you would use her to FURTHER your agenda despite the risk to her having an illegal abortion.

And what you don't seem to be HEARING probably because it will fuck up your rights of women preaching is that i fully agree with pro-choice and want it to remain, however, i do think ALL rights of ALL parties involved need to be considered. You simply want women's rights to be considered and while i will take that if the only other alternative is illegal abortion -- i think this country may be better if the parties have to come to a consensus. Whether or not a fuck was just a fuck, when it results in a fetus it becomes more than just a fuck, it becomes a possibility of a child which belongs to them both until the State says otherwise -- a decision needs to be made by BOTH parties, not just one.

Maybe if this country started focusing more on families than the RIGHTS of women or men individually, our society may be a little more family oriented and less individualistic of deadbeat dads AND MOMS (which is becoming just as common now), divided families etc etc. Did you ever think of that in your desperation to make RIGHTS all about only women?

angel




barelynangel -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 10:01:31 AM)

quote:

There is a common law right to privacy, protected by certain torts (Invasion of Privacy). There are statutes that create specific rights to privacy (HIPAA, anti- private wiretapping statutes). And then there is the bundle of penumbric joy that is the Constitutional Right to Privacy. The fundamental and unlimited right to kill my 10 week old fetus, along with my fundamental right to engage in sodomy and deviant sexual acts are, indeed, found in the Constitution. A decent outline of the Constitutional Right to Privacy can be found here.


That is not what she is speaking of she is saying that the right to privacy gives her a right to do with what she will to her body and that is not true -- i work in law i know all about privacy laws. And i have never disputed that a woman does not have a right to get an abortion. HOWEVER, by law, a person does not have a right to do anything they want to their bodies. If abortion became illegal, then these privacy laws are moot because records can be subpoenaed in a criminal and civil cases without the consent of the patient. So if they have good cause to believe a woman had an abortion if it were illegal, they can easily subpoena her records to show she was pregnant and such, and even after treatment where her records could be used against her.

As long as abortion is LEGAL a woman is allowed to abort her fetus. HOWEVER, i do believe the law should be changed to include a consensus of the PARENTS not just the mother.

angel




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