RE: Abortion

RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Abortion

I'm against ALL abortions

2% (4)

I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance

26% (38)

I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk

6% (10)

I'm for it being legal, but I hate it

23% (34)

I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk

4% (6)

Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved

6% (10)

I don't care one way or the other

3% (5)

I believe there is life at conception

13% (19)

I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months

6% (10)

I believe life only begins after birth

6% (10)

Total Votes : 146

(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

LadyAngelika -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I don't think that an abortion should be legal if a man made her have it for example. That is a circumstance. Granted an unlikely circumstance, but it does happen. That is why I am not comfortable saying in any circumstance. - LA Too bad. Get over it, because you can't have it both ways. Empowering asshole men is a direct consequence of legal abortion. If that is a dealbreaker for you, then get your ass over on the pro-life side. And it probably happens a lot more often than you would like to delude yourself into thinking. Nope. You missed a lot of my posts. I said a man should be able to opt out while it is still safe for a woman to have an abortion. She can then chose to have it without him or abort if she doesn't want to go through it alone. I've said that on other threads this weekend more than once. I find it unlikely that your state will allow it though. My friends who wanted to keep the baby gave that option to the men they were with and some gave birth and are raising the baby alone. I also have advocated many times that people shouldn't sleep together without having the what if conversation. I do, always. ETA when you say it happens more often than I think, if you mean men having women have abortions under duress, I know, I helped a friend of mine pick up the pieces after this happened to her. - LA

Lucylastic -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:14:46 PM)
[sm=agree.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Too bad. Get over it, because you can't have it both ways. Empowering asshole men is a direct consequence of legal abortion. If that is a dealbreaker for you, then get your ass over on the pro-life side. And it probably happens a lot more often than you would like to delude yourself into thinking. And people wonder why some women get their backs up about men being allowed to participate in the decision. [8\|] [sm=agree.gif]

Level -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:17:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Please explain how it is OK to force a woman to risk her health, and possibly her life, on a pregnancy that she does not want. If a doctor states the pregnancy is a risk to her life, then I understand the abortion. If a doctor states that her reproductive health is at risk, but not her life, then I place the value of the child over the right to abort.

Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Too bad. Get over it, because you can't have it both ways. Empowering asshole men is a direct consequence of legal abortion. If that is a dealbreaker for you, then get your ass over on the pro-life side. And it probably happens a lot more often than you would like to delude yourself into thinking. Actually I'd say that in this case, empowering asshole men is a direct consequence of having sex with asshole men. All the "keep your legs closed' talk on the other thread isn't that useful as far as setting public policy goes, but as far as maintaining sanity in your personal life goes, it's pretty good advice. I do think this problem tends to affect young women more, I know I was a lot more impressionable 5-10 years ago than I am today. Which, on a tangent, is why I feel that sex ed classes should teach contraception but stress abstinence.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:21:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I do think this problem tends to affect young women more, I know I was a lot more impressionable 5-10 years ago than I am today. Which, on a tangent, is why I feel that sex ed classes should teach contraception but stress abstinence. Excellent point. The problem is systemic. - LA

WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:33:56 PM)
quote: If a doctor states the pregnancy is a risk to her life, then I understand the abortion. If a doctor states that her reproductive health is at risk, but not her life, then I place the value of the child over the right to abort. And if she dies in childbirth, or develops lifelong health issues due to complications, what is that... sucks to be you? Warning- Incoming very imperfect analogy: Say there is a baby/child that needs a kidney. You are a match. While I suspect that you might well give one up voluntarily, how would you like to be told by the gov't, "Most people can live perfectly healthy lives with one kidney, and she needs one of yours to live. Get your ass on the table"?

takemeforyourown -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:48:15 PM)
Pro-choice, here. There are enough unwanted children out there already. As an aside, I worked as a labor and delivery nurse for several years at a Catholic hospital. Even there, the ethics board allowed 'induction of labor' (aka abortion) in the cases of women who were ill or whose fetuses were diagnosed with conditions incompatible with life outside the uterus. I do admire, however, women who choose to adopt out their babies to loving couples when faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Unfortunately, not every woman with an unwanted pregnancy can bring herself to make such an unselfish choice. Too many girls and women with no business being moms opt to keep those babies an end up fucking them up. Is fucking up an innocent kid better than having an abortion? I dunno.

jlf1961 -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:51:08 PM)
I believe life begins at conception, with that said, I also feel that abortion is a matter of conscience. The woman getting the abortion has to live with her decision.

Level -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 8:51:41 PM)
You're right, it is a very imperfect analogy [:D] I didn't do anything to cause the child to need the kidney. It is almost for certain that the woman did not use protection, or insist the man do so (which she shouldn't need to do). Yes, accidents happen, but generally, no protection was used. So, am I wanting her "punished" for having sex? Nope. But there are consequences to our actions. It is tragic, it is sad.

WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 9:34:33 PM)
quote: You're right, it is a very imperfect analogy [:D] I admitted it was. quote: I didn't do anything to cause the child to need the kidney. What if it was your child, given up for adoption at birth years before, or kept by the mother against your wishes? Should you be forced to cough up a kidney against your will, then? General question, btw, which I am VERY interested in your answer to. That said, you most likely weren't involved in the conception of a fetus that might be aborted either, but you still judge it as wrong and want to impose your morals on something that has nothing to do with you personally. quote: It is almost for certain that the woman did not use protection, or insist the man do so (which she shouldn't need to do). Yes, accidents happen, but generally, no protection was used. So, am I wanting her "punished" for having sex? Nope. But there are consequences to our actions. It is tragic, it is sad. How is it "almost certain"? Do women submbitting pics/dna from broken condoms get a break? Apparently not. She's screwed. As for the whole idea of forcing women to have babies they don't want, that worked pretty well before Roe vs Wade, didn't it? Unless you advocate locking them up, the ones who want to abort will not capitulate to your morals, and many will die. But hey, you didn't get them pregnant. Apologies for the snark, but this issue just pisses me off to no end.

thornhappy -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 9:38:11 PM)
What exactly do you mean by reproductive health? btw, It's been pointed out before that there are a lot of ways to become pregnant while using contraception. If you, as a guy, want to reduce the chance of an unplanned pregnancy you also need to use condoms every single time. quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Please explain how it is OK to force a woman to risk her health, and possibly her life, on a pregnancy that she does not want. If a doctor states the pregnancy is a risk to her life, then I understand the abortion. If a doctor states that her reproductive health is at risk, but not her life, then I place the value of the child over the right to abort.

belladevine -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 10:08:32 PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoBV93rSbRA&NR=1

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 10:35:24 PM)
Personally, I think the entire issue of abortion is temporary, and secondary: 1. Premature babies are viable earlier and earlier, as we come up with better and better "incubator" technology. 2. In vitro fertilization can be done later and later, as we come up with better and better ways of keeping embryos viable for transplant. 3. Cryopreservation of embryos can be done at later and later stages, as we come up with better and better cryotechnology. The problem is going to solve itself soon enough. Eventually, there will be no need for abortions - if you don't want a baby and you manage to get pregnant despite whatever contraceptive technology you were using, we can simply surgically remove the embryo at whatever stage it's at when we discover the pregnancy, freeze it, and wait until someone who does want a child agrees to take care of it. Problem solved.

Real0ne -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 10:35:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy What exactly do you mean by reproductive health? btw, It's been pointed out before that there are a lot of ways to become pregnant while using contraception. If you, as a guy, want to reduce the chance of an unplanned pregnancy you also need to use condoms every single time. there again contract applies, the 2 decide to get an abortion

Real0ne -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 10:37:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I believe life begins at conception, with that said, I also feel that abortion is a matter of conscience. The woman getting the abortion has to live with her decision. I have run into a lot of women who really ended up in bad shape over getting an abortion.

Real0ne -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 10:41:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne my position is from contract because someone in the beginning said it was the "womans" with the implication sole right to do whatever. Sure if they agree on it. I can see where you're coming from, but like I said to Angel, the pregnancy itself only affects the woman. At best, it wreaks havoc on her body and hormones, at worst it could kill her. Postpartum depression is incredibly common as hormonal levels plummet. In an ideal world, once we have the technology to incubate a fetus safely and cheaply, I'd say yes, it would be both people's choice, but as it is now, the pregnancy itself only affects one person and I don't think it's fair to expect a woman to risk her life, health, and sanity to incubate someone else's child. Because if she wants to abort and he doesn't...it's not her child. It's his. well those are all extrinsic matters and once you leave the basis conscience becomes a matter of whim unfortunately....though your point is taken.

belladevine -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 10:54:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level You're right, it is a very imperfect analogy [:D] I didn't do anything to cause the child to need the kidney. It is almost for certain that the woman did not use protection, or insist the man do so (which she shouldn't need to do). Yes, accidents happen, but generally, no protection was used. So, am I wanting her "punished" for having sex? Nope. But there are consequences to our actions. It is tragic, it is sad. The really sad thing about the consequences is that the parent is obviously too idiotic to use contraception or use it properly. Why must a child be born to such an idiotic parent? If the childs first breath of life is based on a lie and steeped in ignorance no good can come of it. It is bad news for the parent, the child and society.

juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 11:18:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel juliaoceania, let me ask you this -- you say you would be part of an underground to get women abortions. Would you also accept the responsibility of being charged with manslaughter if women you help get illegal abortions die due to having the illegal abortion? Would you take on the financial responsibility of lawsuits against you from fathers ad family who are then denied the life of the child or the mother if she dies due to the illegal abortion? While i admire your focus and such -- i wonder how much you would sacrifice to be a part of an underground. angel Yes I would accept responsibility if I were going to stand for justice... it is a social justice position... I am all for civil disobedience in the cause of freedom. I have sacrificed for my pro peace position. As I get older I feel more and more as though my role is as someone that looks out for those who come after me. My generation will soon be on the back burner, I'd say in about 20 years my generation will be retiring. My role is becoming that of mentor, and I willingly accept that role, and with that role comes responsibility. Women have come a long way from having no rights at all to having some semblance of them, the fight still continues. Instead of anti choice threads I wonder why there aren't equal pay for equal work threads. I wonder why there aren't more threads about deadbeat dads? I wonder where the threads about living wages for low income families are? I wonder why there aren't threads about children's rights issues? Why are you so focused on whether or not a woman terminates a pregnancy? Why not focus on creating opportunity and quality of life for the "born".... it boggles that those who pronounce their prolife stance aren't doing more of that in anti-war, pro-education, pro social justice threads.... I call bullshit on the pro life position, because if people were really prolife they would be pro opportunity for the most vulnerable amongst us, and since they aren't starting threads about going after deadbeat dads I have zero respect for that viewpoint... it is basically just a bunch of bullshit. The only lives you all care about is the unborn... otherwise you would be as focused on genocide, war, poverty, famine, healthcare rights, woman's right, etc etc etc... as you are on abortion... all of which cost millions of lives each year around the globe. But abortion is an issue with women being "immoral" creating "bastards" and controlling their womb.. can't have that! Tell you what, eliminate poverty in this country and then you can convince me that we should address termination of pregnancy... deal?

juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 11:27:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: People having sex especially CONSENSUALLY, know that they could make a fetus and that fetus is a 50/50 combination of them both. Ignorance is not plausible this day and age to me. Others may believe there with all the advertising and education ect there still is ignorance especially among adults. All i am saying is -- if a fetus comes about BOTH parties have a right to make determinations for that fetus. This is the part that burns my bottom the most... those who want to punish consensual sex with forcing women to have babies... it is absurd! This goes along with the "Abortion is permissible if the woman is raped or the pregnancy is a result of incest" as if a baby born of rape is less human than one born out of love... what utter shit. If abortion is murder then it shouldn't matter how the fetus was made, seriously, what a flawed argument this is... And this is what makes me think that denying women choice is really about punishing them for enjoying sex and to keep them down... control their sexuality. If it was truly about the life of the fetus this view that abortion is okay for rape victims wouldn't exist KatyLied and I have discussed this before; the best answer I can give is that I don't see the pregancy from rape or incest as "less", in any way, but it makes the whole decision making process horrible, and while I may not agree with the decision to abort here, I can understand it. If this makes me lacking in reason, or a hypocrite, I don't much care. I have to believe in what I believe in. Yeah, you believe in what you believe, which makes me think that we should not deprive rights based upon your "beliefs"... i am going to be straight up Level, because of this hypocrisy of yours I have no respect for your position. If you truly believed abortion was murder, I could respect that.. but this wavering about rape... it is not the "baby's" fault their existence came about through rape... if it were a baby it should not matter. I say this as a mother. I could not "murder" my child because of how it was conceived.. that is just a shitty way of looking at it, and a punitive way.... I do not think abortion is murder, but if I did, it wouldn't matter how the child was conceived. I would love my son no less if someone had raped me. It just boggles my mind that people are thinking that women should be punished for having consensual sex, but if they are raped they get a free abortion pass... wow

slvemike4u -> RE: Abortion (3/21/2010 11:58:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Personally, I think the entire issue of abortion is temporary, and secondary: 1. Premature babies are viable earlier and earlier, as we come up with better and better "incubator" technology. 2. In vitro fertilization can be done later and later, as we come up with better and better ways of keeping embryos viable for transplant. 3. Cryopreservation of embryos can be done at later and later stages, as we come up with better and better cryotechnology. The problem is going to solve itself soon enough. Eventually, there will be no need for abortions - if you don't want a baby and you manage to get pregnant despite whatever contraceptive technology you were using, we can simply surgically remove the embryo at whatever stage it's at when we discover the pregnancy, freeze it, and wait until someone who does want a child agrees to take care of it. Problem solved. Well one would think that given that sort of advancements in medical technology.....they might have come across with a foolproof and harmless contraception method? I mean as long as we are moving forward lets do so in the right direction....your medical advancements would in no way address the issue of whether or not a given person wants their off-spring sitting around waiting for someone else to want a child.

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