Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Abortion


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Abortion Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
[Poll]

Abortion


I'm against ALL abortions
  2% (4)
I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance
  26% (38)
I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk
  6% (10)
I'm for it being legal, but I hate it
  23% (34)
I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk
  4% (6)
Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved
  6% (10)
I don't care one way or the other
  3% (5)
I believe there is life at conception
  13% (19)
I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months
  6% (10)
I believe life only begins after birth
  6% (10)


Total Votes : 146
(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:48:36 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

the best answer I can give is that I don't see the pregancy from rape or incest as "less", in any way, but it makes the whole decision making process horrible, and while I may not agree with the decision to abort here, I can understand it.

The whole decision making process is horrible anyway, Level. As someone who has made that decision, I'm just sayin.



I believe that. As I told Phoenix on the "Women's Rights" thread, there isn't any aspect of abortion that is easy, and I don't envy anyone having to deal with it.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:53:35 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

This goes along with the "Abortion is permissible if the woman is raped or the pregnancy is a result of incest" as if a baby born of rape is less human than one born out of love... what utter shit. If abortion is murder then it shouldn't matter how the fetus was made, seriously, what a flawed argument this is...

And this is what makes me think that denying women choice is really about punishing them for enjoying sex and to keep them down... control their sexuality. If it was truly about the life of the fetus this view that abortion is okay for rape victims wouldn't exist


I have a huge issue with this also.  It values a fetus as "less" because of how it was conceived.  I will never understand it.  If pro-lifers value all life, how can it be okay to, in the words, they often use, to "murder" a fetus because of something (manner of conception) it has nothing to do with?  How can they not see that this makes no sense in their pro-life argument?


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:56:27 PM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		I disagree, Angel, but don't see the point of going round and round about it when it is obvious that we will not reach an agreement. I value and respect your opinion, even though mine differs rather significantly. I might agree with you if pregnancy always resulted from unprotected sex, but it doesn't; any more than an accident always occurs if you choose to drive without seatbelts.

Now I really do have to go engage in a risky behaviour, if I want to eat dinner before midnight anyway :)




_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:00:42 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Level, I also have to say that the wording on a couple of your options is..... interesting, this one especially:
quote:

I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk

The general health of a woman is always at risk with a pregnancy. The effects of some of those risks show up much later in the pregnancy than abortion would even be allowed. At that point, you either have a late term abortion or a woman facing serious health issues over a pregnancy that she was forced to continue against her will, or both. Women can and do die in childbirth, even these days, and that is only one possible outcome. Complications from pregnancy can also leave her unable to conceive again, or with health problems that can continue for the rest of her life.

I think it interesting that you do not support the death penalty for crime, but do support a policy that would force a woman to unwillingly submit to something that could cause her death or permanent health issues. What was her crime again? Oh yeah, having sex.

I like you Level, but completely disagree with you on this issue.


I tried very hard to word the choices in non-offensive ways, and tried to encompass as many variables as possible.

The one you point out, is regarding if a woman's doctor sees something specific to cause alarm, but not life-risking.

If a doctor believes the mother's life is at risk, I understand her having the abortion.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:02:56 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I understand Wyld, and i think opinions on this issue ALL of them are important to the whole. The yes the nos and the maybes and hell even the i don't knows lol.

angel



_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:11:09 PM   
Blackburn


Posts: 78
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		This subject is always perplexing because it invariably devolves to the same issue: when an unwanted pregnancy actually happens to you, what do you want to do about it? The same person can legitimately have different answers at different times.

My personal belief is that these decisions are deeply personal, emotionally harsh, and ultimately unfair at one level or another. Yet most of the discussion on this topic really revolves around trying to convince the rest of the population that "my view is so very righteous that it should be law." That part is pretty laughable (to me) because: my second personal belief is that governments are rarely successful in regulating or controlling social mores. Look at the ultimately pointless "war on drugs" as a nifty example. My bottom line: the gov'mint has no business sticking it's nose in this issue beyond the normal safeguards.

I look at the abortion topic as an issue about the sanctity of life. When put in these terms, it is or it isn't: life is either protected in all cases or it isn't. In our world, life is easily sacrificed. While we are having narrowly focused debates about abortion, someone in Texas will be executed. Someone in Amsterdam will get assistance with suicide. And someone will be sent to Iraq to die. Much as we would love to believe these "takings of life" are all different, they aren't. They all require the same moral judgment about the importance of human life.

For me, the conclusion is easy: until I can honestly believe that all war, all suicide, all capital punishment is incontrovertibly wrong/unethical/immoral, I can't be a hypocrite and say that I have any right to pass judgment on abortion. Therefore, I believe it should be legal and safely available.

And who has the right to choose? The woman, from the simple fact that it is her body. Should a father have a say in the decision? Sure. But life isn't fair. If a man doesn't get that opportunity, suck it up.

Again, I wish I were a more angelic person who could support a kind and just world where no one needed to make ugly decisions. But Gandhi I'm not. I believe that war is at times necessary to preserve civilization. I believe that the day may come when I cry for a nice warm overdose of morphine to take the pain away. I believe that certain sex offenders should just get off'ed for particularly heinous crimes. And I believe that I am not the one who should decide if a pregnancy is sacred.

Just my pedantic two cents...

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:13:17 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

You lost me what does abortion have to do with sterilization, you do realize women have the same option as men in that? Its called getting their tubes tied. So to me your second paragraph is absolutely off because a woman has the ability to get herself sterilized so to speak just as a Man can. Sterilization to me has no place in this debate, nor are women only allowed to abort to rid themselves of the ability to concieve.


angel


Actually its much harder for a woman to get a tubal ligation then it is for a man to get a vasectomy. As someone whos Completely pro choice due to medical reasons, Ive requested a tubal ligation from age 14 on. Ive been denied because as a woman  I might change my mind... *rolls her eyes* In at least the tri-state area to be eligable, one must be of 35 years of age or greater, already have three children, or have a medical need that can not be controlled by any other means before an obgyn will preform the procedure. I will plain and simple die If i become pregnant and do not abort, There is no choice in it for any man involved, I do everything I can to not become pregnant. My life to myself is much more important then myself dead and the fetus dead as well.

A man has to be around the age of 20 years old, and deposit a sample of sperm in a bank in case he changes his mind.


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:15:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I tried very hard to word the choices in non-offensive ways, and tried to encompass as many variables as possible.


I'm not going to give you an A on your poll design as you mixed apples with oranges with tennis ball ;-)

- Not much can be deduced from it to be honest because it wasn't stated in the question that it was multiple choice and therefore some might have only made one
- There is little consistency in the wording
- There is value judgement in some of the wording
- Some points aren't clear and some repeat concepts
AND
- The most popular option for pro-choicers "It is up to the woman to choose" isn't there.

But I will give you an A for starting a good thread and respecting other people's opinion during the debate.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:17:26 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

- The most popular option for pro-choicers "It is up to the woman to choose" isn't there.



Wouldn't that be the second option - "I'm for allowing abortion in any circumstance"?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:20:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

- The most popular option for pro-choicers "It is up to the woman to choose" isn't there.



Wouldn't that be the second option - "I'm for allowing abortion in any circumstance"?


This is where I say the wording is prejudicial. It isn't the way pro-choicers formulate their reflections.

ETA - I don' think Level was being intentionally prejudicial.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/21/2010 7:21:46 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:25:18 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

- The most popular option for pro-choicers "It is up to the woman to choose" isn't there.



Wouldn't that be the second option - "I'm for allowing abortion in any circumstance"?

I dont think it is honestly
Level sorry hon, yannoI love you but I am pro choice, but there isnt a choice there for me.
Ive never had one, but will fight  for the rights of the woman over her body
Am I happy that they are needed? no
But I agree with LadyA "Its up to the woman to choose" isnt there and it should be




_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:25:20 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

This is where I say the wording is prejudicial. It isn't the way pro-choicers formulate their reflections.

ETA - I don' think Level was being intentionally prejudicial.

- LA


True, but so is the other wording.

It should be standardized and factual:

All abortion should be illegal.
All abortion should be legal.
All abortion should be legal with in the first (x) months.
Abortion should be legal only under (xyz) circumstance.

And so on. "Right to choose" and "Right to life" are both prejudicial, "legal" and "illegal" are a lot simpler.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:26:19 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:


Wouldn't that be the second option - "I'm for allowing abortion in any circumstance"?

I dont think it is honestly
Level sorry hon, yannoI love you but I am pro choice, but there isnt a choice there for me.
Ive never had one, but will fight  for the rights of the woman over her body
Am I happy that they are needed? no
But I agree with LadyA "Its up to the woman to choose" isnt there and it should be



I guess I don't see the difference between "abortion should be legal" and "a woman should have the legal right to choose abortion."

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:27:48 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		"I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months" This would be the closest to my position except for using the term life. The embryo is alive before then, the zygote is alive, hell the sperm is alive. Thing is I kill things that are alive all the time without a second thought. From cleaning out the mildew in my bathtub to stepping on ants. Since I'm completely comfortable setting out mouse traps for complex thinking feeling life forms it's hard for me to get worked up about the sanctity of a clump of cells.

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:28:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

True, but so is the other wording.


Which is what I said in my initial critique.

I know Level had good intentions. I guess it's my research methods class coming to haunt me again ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:33:45 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

- The most popular option for pro-choicers "It is up to the woman to choose" isn't there.



Wouldn't that be the second option - "I'm for allowing abortion in any circumstance"?


If I'm understanding Lady A no it isn't; "a woman's right to choose" means her right alone to choose whether or noy to have an abortion.


_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags
Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:34:49 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I tried very hard to word the choices in non-offensive ways, and tried to encompass as many variables as possible.


I'm not going to give you an A on your poll design as you mixed apples with oranges with tennis ball ;-)

- Not much can be deduced from it to be honest because it wasn't stated in the question that it was multiple choice and therefore some might have only made one
- There is little consistency in the wording
- There is value judgement in some of the wording
- Some points aren't clear and some repeat concepts
AND
- The most popular option for pro-choicers "It is up to the woman to choose" isn't there.

But I will give you an A for starting a good thread and respecting other people's opinion during the debate.

- LA




The very first sentence of the OP says "multiple choice allowed".

I don't think concepts are really repeated, though some are similar.

Elisabella makes a valid point:

quote:

Right to choose" and "Right to life" are both prejudicial, "legal" and "illegal" are a lot simpler.




< Message edited by Level -- 3/21/2010 7:40:52 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:36:41 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

"I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months" This would be the closest to my position except for using the term life. The embryo is alive before then, the zygote is alive, hell the sperm is alive. Thing is I kill things that are alive all the time without a second thought. From cleaning out the mildew in my bathtub to stepping on ants. Since I'm completely comfortable setting out mouse traps for complex thinking feeling life forms it's hard for me to get worked up about the sanctity of a clump of cells.


You know, the muslims use the term ensoulment.

- the semen is established in the uterus
- the embryo has formed a blood clot
- the embryo has attained the shape of flesh
- a foetus that has attained the shape of bone upon which the flesh has not yet grown
- a foetus in which bones and flesh are completely bound, but there is no spirit
- the foetus is ensouled (approximately 120 days)

It is an interesting concept and I would say that before that, a woman should have the right to chose. I don't believe that she should be able to terminate pregnancy at just any point of her pregnancy unless it is evident that the pregnancy is presenting a major threat to her life or there are other very severe complications.

But before ensoulment (I believe in the notion of the soul even though I'm an atheist), I have no issues with women having an abortion.

I do think women and men should act responsibly and do everything in their power to not get to that point.

- LA



_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:37:13 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

If I'm understanding Lady A no it isn't; "a woman's right to choose" means her right alone to choose whether or noy to have an abortion.



Right which would mean it's legal in any circumstance. It's kinda like saying "I think marijuana should be legal" means you're also saying "I think it's a person's right to choose whether to smoke marijuana" - it really only means something if it's legal.

The issue isn't whether women choose to have an abortion, its whether they have the legal ability to choose to have an abortion. I mean, even if it were illegal a woman could still choose a backalley or herbal abortion. "Right to choose" means absolutely squat compared to legality.

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 7:40:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
the point here is that when having consensual sex she waived the 100% right to her body when the kid came on the scene by virtue of the contract of the 2 having a child that requires for shits and giggle parts from 2 cars to make one.

You now have a contract and 2 people invested in the one.  It really is that simple.



You make the assumption that the contract was to have a baby.

With the number of men and women slutting around looking for "no strings attached" potential babymaking, I'd be more likely to think the contract was to NOT have a baby. That's what no strings attached means and a baby is a hell of a string.



well 2 people driving down the street get in an accident can one just drive away? no.

if you do a no strings attached then that is the contract.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Abortion Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094