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[Poll]

Abortion


I'm against ALL abortions
  2% (4)
I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance
  26% (38)
I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk
  6% (10)
I'm for it being legal, but I hate it
  23% (34)
I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk
  4% (6)
Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved
  6% (10)
I don't care one way or the other
  3% (5)
I believe there is life at conception
  13% (19)
I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months
  6% (10)
I believe life only begins after birth
  6% (10)


Total Votes : 146


(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 4:34:46 PM   
LadyAngelika


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You are twisting my words around which is making it difficult for me to have a debate with you.

I am simply saying that by doing certain activities, there are risks. To say just don't have sex is like saying just don't drive a car because in both cases, you can have an accident.

The technicalities you are bringing in are straying away from the very simple point I'm trying to make.

- LA


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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 4:36:47 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


It is permissible in the Middle East. Look at my post above. This isn't aimed at either of you but a general reminder that all should stop making assumptions about the Middle East.

- LA



Excellent point, and I'm sorry for the generalization. I still stand against the rhetoric though, it's possible to live in a country that doesn't have government funded abortion without being all OMG AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 4:40:51 PM   
barelynangel


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I understand what you are saying and i am not twisting your words i am correcting what i see as faulty logic.

You are saying the decision to drive is the concensual act for injuries and damage of an accident. I simply disagree and state its the accident that is the act that causes the injuries and damage and is what is looked at to determine fault -- NOT the decision to drive.


I know the point you are trying to make and my comments are not techincalities but the logical comparison of the two concepts and of why your analogy doesn't fit, because you are to me comparing driving and sex instead of the accident and sex as to risks and consensuality.

grins, its usually part of a debate to show faulty reasoning. You wanted to do that with my statement and believe your point is what makes sense -- i disagree based on your analogy -- and it appears i am not allowed to do the same to support my point you tried to negate with yours?

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/21/2010 4:41:42 PM >


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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 4:47:16 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

So, they don't all ride camels?


Another misconception. Camels are in the desert parts and not all over the Middle East. Gosh, I'm going to have to school you all in Middle East Studies or something? Problem is most of what I know about the Middle East I know from Middle Eastern lovers ;-)

- LA



Yeah, I was just pulling your somewhat hawt gam. Everybody knows they all drive Benzes.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 4:48:45 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

You are saying the decision to drive is the concensual act for injuries and damage of an accident. I simply disagree and state its the accident that is the act that causes the injuries and damage and is what is looked at to determine fault -- NOT the decision to drive.


Taking your analogy even further, it's not the act of sex that causes a baby, but the act of conception. And if the woman is on the pill and the man used a condom (which is very likely if they're not in a LTR) then it's a "no fault" accident.

And as an aside, I've known a couple people who have had unplanned pregnancies, and you know what one of the first things they said was? "How can I be pregnant, I'm on the pill?"

A lot of people hear numbers like "99% effective" and in their minds round up to 100% but for something widely used, like the pill, it means that if a million women take it, 10,000 of them will get pregnant even if using the pill completely as directed. So you can't just say "people know having sex can cause a baby" because for most people, they assume if they're on the pill and their partner uses a condom, there is NO way they can get pregnant, and that simply isn't true.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 4:51:38 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

People having sex especially CONSENSUALLY, know that they could make a fetus and that fetus is a 50/50 combination of them both. Ignorance is not plausible this day and age to me. Others may believe there with all the advertising and education ect there still is ignorance especially among adults. All i am saying is -- if a fetus comes about BOTH parties have a right to make determinations for that fetus.


This is the part that burns my bottom the most... those who want to punish consensual sex with forcing women to have babies... it is absurd!

This goes along with the "Abortion is permissible if the woman is raped or the pregnancy is a result of incest" as if a baby born of rape is less human than one born out of love... what utter shit. If abortion is murder then it shouldn't matter how the fetus was made, seriously, what a flawed argument this is...

And this is what makes me think that denying women choice is really about punishing them for enjoying sex and to keep them down... control their sexuality. If it was truly about the life of the fetus this view that abortion is okay for rape victims wouldn't exist



KatyLied and I have discussed this before; the best answer I can give is that I don't see the pregancy from rape or incest as "less", in any way, but it makes the whole decision making process horrible, and while I may not agree with the decision to abort here, I can understand it. If this makes me lacking in reason, or a hypocrite, I don't much care. I have to believe in what I believe in.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:00:57 PM   
LadyAngelika


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I am talking about risk. Risk. Simply risk.

- LA


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:02:47 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

So, they don't all ride camels?


Another misconception. Camels are in the desert parts and not all over the Middle East. Gosh, I'm going to have to school you all in Middle East Studies or something? Problem is most of what I know about the Middle East I know from Middle Eastern lovers ;-)

- LA



Yeah, I was just pulling your somewhat hawt gam. Everybody knows they all drive Benzes.



What do you mean my gam is only somewhat hawt??? Damn. Let's see if the slave from Dubai picking me up in his Benzzzz thinks it's only somewhat hawt ;-)

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:12:23 PM   
Level


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I reserve the right to upgrade your legs to hotty hawtness, upon closer examination!

Looking at the poll results, I note that a large majority sees life beginning at conception. That's interesting, I didn't think it'd be that high.


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:12:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Conceiving a child when practising safe sex is as much an accident as getting into a smash while driving a car.

That is the point I'm trying to make. That said, I don't need to convince both of you as you agree that a woman should have the right to an abortion, correct?

You just think both partners need to agree, correct?

Well to that I respond that people need to talk about these things before they get into bed together and make sure they are on the same page.

Let me present to you a scenario.

A woman has sex with her partner. Not a one night stand, but with her partner. Being communicators, they already agree that at this time in their lives they don't want to have children. This has actually been discussed before the first time they had sex.

One night, while they are having sex, the condom breaks. This is when the accident happens. She isn't on the pill because it messes with her hormones in a bad way. Besides, she hasn't been dating this man for all that long and wants to also protect against STDs. So she goes to the drugstore hours later when it opens and takes the morning after pill which is about 90% effective.

A week later she finds out she is pregnant. She talks to him about it and they both agree that the abortion is the right thing.
She has the abortion and everyone is relieved.


What worked well is that they had discussed this before hand and even though she asked him his opinion before making her final decision, she already was pretty sure of his response as they had communicated like responsible adults before having sex. That is the real key.

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/21/2010 5:13:23 PM >


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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:12:39 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
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LA - I don't think the risk you are speaking about is comparable. The risk you speak of - determining to drive -- is to me like the risk of a woman deciding to walk among Men.

The risk you speak of is not comparable to me. Sex is the action that causes the conception which begets the fetus -- not deciding to walk among men; just as the accident is the action that causes the injuries -- not the decision to drive.

I know the point you were trying to make to counter my point. I simply don't believe its comparable to the instant concept.


All in all, to me this issue lies with BOTH parties not just the mother. If they are in agreement great, my concern comes when they aren't and the rights of both parents to the fetus.


angel






< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/21/2010 5:16:50 PM >


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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:31:23 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel


All in all, to me this issue lies with BOTH parties not just the mother. If they are in agreement great, my concern comes when they aren't and the rights of both parents to the fetus.




Just out of curiosity angel, what would your feelings be about a situation where a man was able to force a woman to carry the fetus to term, where the woman died giving birth? Do you feel the man would be responsible for the woman's death, and if so, how do you think it should be addressed?

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:44:26 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

the best answer I can give is that I don't see the pregancy from rape or incest as "less", in any way, but it makes the whole decision making process horrible, and while I may not agree with the decision to abort here, I can understand it.

The whole decision making process is horrible anyway, Level. As someone who has made that decision, I'm just sayin.


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:48:20 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaharThorne

Is a one-night stand a contract?  Did both parties have attorneys ready for the sexual contract?  Does an occasional fling be a contract?

Sorry, but when sex becomes a legal matter, it no longer becomes pleasurable. Too many what if this and what if that.




YUP!

the only thing that does not qualify for contract is force duress and coercion.

well the kid is after the fun so it wont spoil the act, however the outcome certainly is or can be a legal matter.



Consensual sexual intercourse is a contract? How exactly are the requisite features of a contract fulfilled in such instance exactly? Offer, acceptance, intention to create legal relations, consideration?

And from that, how should an unwanted pregnancy be regarded and, if necessary, remedied under the law of contract exactly?

Enquiring minds wish to know

E

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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:52:28 PM   
barelynangel


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Elisabella, i can't more so won't get into the game of well what about this scenerio what about that as you can place all kinds of ifs, ands, buts, and what ifs and the combinations are vast. i already said i don't have the answers but i do have the belief a Man has just as much say as the woman. The fetus is both of theirs just as reulting child would be according to law.

i only believe that the parents are equally able to make determinations. If a woman engages in concensual sex and a fetus is the result of those actions, both parents should have a say. I don't value the mother over the father in this. Sure a woman may have 9 months of when she carries the baby and lifetime results of same, but is that more than a father going through life believing his child was murdered by his mother and he was helpless to stop it?

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/21/2010 5:54:06 PM >


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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 5:53:51 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
In Saudi Arabia? In Afghanistan?....



You said Middle East. You did not say specific countries. My Iranian and Lebanese friends confirm that they are a legal there. I'd have to look at each country's law, but I would do just that before making assumptions.

Bottom line is that there is nothing in Islamic or Jewish law that prevents it. It is to see what the civil code says.

- LA



I had to look as my ex and his ex had an abortion when they still were in Iran. He told me it was acceptable there, even if you had to keep it hush hush.

In Iran, abortions are technically illegal unless it is to save the life of the mother. BUT having an abortion before ensoulment (which Islamic law considers about 120 days) is absolutely possible and only chargeable with a monetary penalty, blood money they call it.

From the UN Report.

quote:

After the revolution in 1979, abortion was once again made illegal on most grounds. Under the Penal Code of 1991, which is based on Islamic law, abortion is categorized as a lesser crime involving bodily injury (oisas), which is punishable by the payment of blood money or compensation (diyah). Compensation is paid to the victim or, in the case of the victim’s death, to the victim’s relatives.

In the case of abortion, the amount of compensation paid depends on the stage of the pregnancy when the abortion is performed. It is 20 dinars if semen is established in the uterus; 40 dinars if the embryo has formed a blood clot; 60 dinars if the embryo has attained the shape of flesh; 80 dinars for a foetus that has attained the shape of bone upon which the flesh has not yet grown; 100 dinars for a foetus in which bones and flesh are completely bound, but there is no spirit; and the full diyah payable for a human if the foetus is ensouled. Before ensoulment, the compensation is the same regardless of sex. After ensoulment, half of the full diyah is payable in the case of a woman, or, if the sex of the foetus is indeterminate, three-quarters of the full diyah. If the pregnant woman aborts her own child, she is not to receive any part of the compensation. The amount of full diyah is set by the Code at 1,000 unadulterated or unalloyed gold dinars, 10,000 unadulterated or unalloyed silver dirhams, or certain numbers of camels, cows, sheep or garments. Although the abortion provisions of the Code do not express any exceptions to the prohibition against abortion, other sections of the Code exempt from criminal punishment persons who perform criminal acts in order to save the life of another person. Presumably these would justify the performance of an abortion to save the life of a pregnant woman.


You can look up any country here: http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/abortion/profiles.htm

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/21/2010 5:54:12 PM >


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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:23:46 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

The risk you speak of is not comparable to me. Sex is the action that causes the conception which begets the fetus -- not deciding to walk among men; just as the accident is the action that causes the injuries -- not the decision to drive.

I disagree. This is from a post I made in the other thread:
quote:

every time you get behind the wheel, you are taking a risk. You are on the road with a bunch of strangers, some of whom may be drunk, some of whom are definitely speeding, driving recklessly, talking on cell phones, munching on fast food, and/or doing any number of other things that can cause an accident. Good drivers know all this, and do their best to mitigate the risks. They use seat belts, get cars with good airbags, avoid speeding and driving recklessly, watch other drivers carefully..... and guess what? Sometimes even the best, most careful drivers get into accidents. Sometimes they are killed, and sometimes they even kill others. Sometimes they are injured very severely. It's a risk that everyone takes when they choose to drive.

You say that getting behind the wheel doesn't mean that you consent to get into an accident. Well, having sex doesn't mean that I consent to the condom breaking, the pill failing, or anything else that causes an accidental pregnancy. Do I know that those things can happen? Yes. Just like I know that there is a chance that when I get into my car in a few minutes to go to the grocery store, I may get into an accident.


< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 3/21/2010 6:24:55 PM >


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RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:28:29 PM   
thornhappy


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(fast reply)

How many men here use condoms to avoid unintended pregnancy when their partners are also using a contraceptive?

How many men stayed celibate before they could afford to support a child all by themselves (thus eliminating any risk of unplanned pregnancy)?

A simple reason for women to have the responsibility of choice is that it is her body taking the impact of pregnancy.  It's a risky activity. She ends up responsible for the prenatal care, impacts to her job, the need for possible unpaid leave, the costs for delivery, etc. 

There are several ways women can become pregnant on a pill:  1) the dosages are so small nowadays that you must take them at the same time every day and use another method if you miss a single pill, and 2) many common prescription drugs can make oral contraceptives ineffective.

Jeez, people have even gotten pregnant after tubal ligations and vasectomies.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:44:47 PM   
WyldHrt


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Level, I also have to say that the wording on a couple of your options is..... interesting, this one especially:
quote:

I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk

The general health of a woman is always at risk with a pregnancy. The effects of some of those risks show up much later in the pregnancy than abortion would even be allowed. At that point, you either have a late term abortion or a woman facing serious health issues over a pregnancy that she was forced to continue against her will, or both. Women can and do die in childbirth, even these days, and that is only one possible outcome. Complications from pregnancy can also leave her unable to conceive again, or with health problems that can continue for the rest of her life.

I think it interesting that you do not support the death penalty for crime, but do support a policy that would force a woman to unwillingly submit to something that could cause her death or permanent health issues. What was her crime again? Oh yeah, having sex.

I like you Level, but completely disagree with you on this issue.



_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Abortion - 3/21/2010 6:47:03 PM   
barelynangel


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Wyld,

You analogy makes no sense. PREGNANCY IS A RESULT OF ACTION OF SEX. INJURIES ARE A RESULT OF AN ACCIDENt. Pregnancy is not comparable to accident. You also are comparing the wrong thing.


The breaking of a condom an the resulting fetus caused by having sex can be comparable to a lacerated liver caused by the accident an resulting internal bleeding.

You consented with another to have sex. Most people i know don't consent to having an accident. You want the pregnacy to be comparable to an accident and the concept of concent. Its not. Sex is comparable to the accident -- not anything else.

You got into your car knowing without an accident you will be fine. You can walk among Men and know without the sex you won't get pregnant.

People sex is a much more specific concept than is getting into your car to drive, the risks while still can be there -- the probabilities are much more or less depending on where in the equation the action comes in.

1. Driving -- no accident -- no injuries (you can have protection with regard to possible accidents - seat belts, airbags, etc)
2. Sex -- pregnancy (protection from the pregnancy would be equivocal to airbags and seatbelts)


Protection malfunctioning is only applicable AFTER the sex or accident occur. It has no bearing on your immedicate safety or getting pregnant if 1) the accident doesn't occur, or 2) the sex doesn't occur.

angel

Can you protect yourself from injury by never driving because you don't consent to accidents sure -- but the probabilities of your getting injured JUST BY DRIVING with no accident are so low the risk is minimal. The same can be said for a woman walking among Men.

However, if you get into an accident because of the actions of another, your risk of injury is far greater than just driving. Just as if you consent to have sex, your risk of getting pregnant is greater than just walking among Men or even foreplay with no intercourse.

I am simply speaking of comparabilities, people aren't accurately comparing the variables and the possible risk factors to me to make their point negating the consensual sex not being accurate to the reasonable belief a pregnancy could result.

I could care less if a woman gets pregnant by accident or not, IF A MAN wants the child who is the father of the child, i believe he has a say in whether or not the child gets aborted. Just as i believe if she keeps the child instead of aborting because of his decision, then she has no responsibility to that child.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/21/2010 6:55:28 PM >


_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 100
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