quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

That isn't Butchman's you were at was it?

I have a woman who is in service to me, she wants me to beat her to punish her for past crimes in her primary relationship. At first I could sort of see the point, provide closure and all that sort of stuff but it occurred to me that that STILL creates a cycle. First it makes being human and having issues as something "bad" and beating her absolves her of past crimes but it sets her up for failure because she is going to make those mistakes again (in smaller and smaller ways) and we always find other issues to work on and so I decided it was silly to do that.

Instead I am working with her to teach her to forgive herself for those past deeds and to simply catch herself when she is doing that sort of stuff, correct it, and get rewards for that.

Part of the problem with punishment is those who want/need it often came from childhoods where they got most of their attention from a negative place and so they acted out to get attention. I want to change that entire paradigm and so punishment just doesn't work like that although it does have its place.

I was in bed with some lovely women the other night and one of them playfully bit me, she has done it a time or two before and I have gently stated how I dislike it. I sat bolt upright and loudly and harshly told her if she ever did that again, I would walk the fuck out. She probably won't do it again, but it was one of those "hot in the moment" things that talking about won't cure...and so a bit of trauma around it will serve to remind her next time she is thinking of biting down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

(a)We've never discussed a punishment dynamic, so I don't even know if we have one.
(b)I would assume that we'd deal with a mistake by talking about it.
(c)Our relationship is functional, real, rational and quite happy, so I guess it can work with no way to deal.

That being said...I've expressed my concerns about falling short. I'm always the one to give in first during a beating, etc.
He's told me that it's not a pass/fail relationship. As long as I've tried my absolute best and hardest, then he's happy.
Works for me. Works for him. (We're also not high protocol/rules type of people)

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In other words, if you just choose a slave (or choose to be a slave) who is willingly compliant and obedient to begin with, then the whole reward/punishment dynamic is unnecessary.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
.. i was repeatedly told, well if he sets up a rule that he wants me to follow and i forget repeatedly and there is no consequence, then i lose trust in that the rules have meaning. And while i follow that line of thinking, the impression that it left was that an obedience based M/s relationship has to have a punishment dynamic, instead of it just being the case for those who were in attendance at the retreat, which is why i wanted to ask a wider audience so to speak.
.
i don't desire punishment, i just don't want to be afraid of it, if the person i end up with sees that as part of an M/s relationship.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

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ORIGINAL: osf

To me punishment is a concept not an act and should be proportional

I hope that makes sense

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ORIGINAL: Dominasola

I wouldn't  be able to be a slave if a punishment dynamic existed in my relationship.  I'm not wired in a way that would allow punishment to improve a relationship; it would only destroy it.  I'm hard enough on myself even when I make non-mistakes (things that I think I messed up on, but not perceived that way by my Master). I linger over these "non-mistakes," chastising myself over and over and over again until I get so anxious that I nearly break down (something that I'm working on).  I have discovered over the past few months that I am inherently submissive and obedient.  The fear that something I might do will displease my Master is enough of a punishment for me to have even have the thought pop into my head. I've been this way my whole life - never once had I gotten into trouble when I was young... neither at school nor at home.  I wasn't good because I didn't want to do the things that would get other children in trouble. I was good because I had the inherent need to please those who were in a position of authority.

I suppose I may be different than some in my "slave-ness"  in that I didn't see myself as a slave - nor even as a submissive - when I met my Master. I had no idea what the D/s or M/s dynamic involved; when I encountered discussions on punishment dynamics on the boards here, one thought kept going through my head: how can a relationship work when there HAS to be punishment?  I suppose I'm a bit narrow-minded in this way, but I honestly think that a relationship where punishment has to be administered for incorrect behaviour is not a good relationship at all. Those in the s-type position have to have a fair amount of integrity, and when I encounter s-types saying they've been bad because they disobeyed their D-type by doing x instead of y intentionally, I just have to shake my head.  If true punishment for intentionally incorrect behaviour is appreciated somehow by both parties, then rock on - more power to you. But when I hear about punishment dynamics, I can only think about how the D-type is somehow setting expectations much too high, or the s-type just doesn't give a rat's ass about obedience.

As for dealing with mistakes or disobedience...I don't think that disobedience will ever come into the equation in my present relationship. He is such a powerful presence in my life - even when we are apart - that I would never, ever, want to disobey him.  I couldn't hurt him like that.  He puts his trust in me to be good.  I could never break that trust. Mistakes - well, I suppose it depends on the mistake. Miscommunications have happened, and I have freaked out when I realized what I had done.  Issues are resolved through communicating - making me aware of what I have done.  This awareness is good enough for me to ensure that similar mistakes will not occur in the future.

And, if I may add something I have begun to notice, heartfelt:

I feel as though this exploration of slave-ness is causing some anxiety in you.  Every time I see another wonderful thread started by you, I wonder why you seem to be so focused on why you feel as though you can't be a slave...but wanting to be at the same time.  As much as becoming more self-aware and overcoming obstacles (like the various fears of loss of control, punishment, etc...) help in this quest, I really think that someone who IS so aware of her surroundings and of herself can really only be a slave if coupled with the right person to be a slave to.   Although I, for example, am not necessarily naturally "wired" like others to always need an M/s relationship, I discovered that I COULD open myself up to my Master and that I COULD give him the level of submission and obedience that he feels he needs from a partner.  I truly don't think that I could do it with anyone I felt compatible with...even anyone I have trusted and been in relationships with before. I am not a slave on my own...he brings it out in me. Even with all of these fears, I do think that if you find the level of commitment and trust in a relationship you need, you will - without fear - be able to be what you want for a special someone.

(I'm sorry if any of this doesn't make sense.  I tried to read it over, but sometimes it's hard to notice confusion when it all makes sense in your head! )