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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:13:22 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Aylee, that's not the kind of situation I'm concerned about. I can't imagine being willfully disobedient over something as minor as eggs, or anything of that sort. So far, I haven't felt at all rebellious, but I do sometimes struggle internally with things my Master wants of me. I would *HOPE* with all my heart that if it happens, I can maintain enough composure to handle it well, to express myself well, but I recognise that I'm human, and I might someday truly resist him, if only very briefly. I don't want that to happen, but if it does, I would very much hope that he would handle it like Elysium's Master did, rather than just deciding that the dynamic was broken, so he was going to kick me to the curb. If he had come straight out and ordered me to do some of the things I have done for him, that I struggled internally to get there, without any prep work, I might indeed have dug in my heels and gotten stubborn momentarily. He knows me well enough to approach it in a way that I *didn't* struggle with him, but in a new relationship, we might well have had an honest miscommunication about it. Those were things I had genuine fears about, where I felt at the time it was a "can't" rather than a "won't." If he had demanded them and backed me into a corner, especially within the first couple of weeks that I was his slave, I would not have been ready to go there. Now I do so joyfully, happy and secure with him, even though there's still a little bit of "Eek, am I really doing this?!" turmoil in my mind.

Maybe I'm just taking it too literally, but with something as important as a breakup, I think it would be stupid of me not to.

lovingpet and LaT, I don't want someone who is uncompromising and inflexible - I do want to serve, trust, and obey, but I wanted my Master to be willing to listen to my concerns as well, and perhaps find a compromise or baby step that allows me to get where he wants me to go, without a fight!


So what you are telling me that there is NOTHING either one of you could possibly do that would end your relationship? Nothing at all?


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:21:10 AM   
RavenMuse


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Ishy, you know what you signed up for when you walked in the door..... lucky for you that your Master will tolerate such behaviour... I will not. There is no need for it, no excuse for it and a girl how will do that is not compatible enough with Me for it to even be worth My time 'punishing' her for it... I don't buy into nor play the "Make me" game.

Work with Me or get the fuck out..... if there is a problem, We face it together or not at all, I own an adult, not a child, she knows what is required of her, just as for this to work the relationship requires things of Me... I do My side of this, I expect her to do hers.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to ishyB)
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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:25:45 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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I tend to have a humanistic view with my relationships. The D side of the coin is where I naturally gravitate towards. Seriously, I'm more concerned about the relationship itself verses the dynamic most of the time. I really don't have any issue with having my authority or who and what I am as a person tested. However, if somebody is testing me all the fucking time.. that ain't no fun and it's time to pack the relationship in, regardless if it's an intimate one or a friendship or otherwise. When it comes to limits, first and foremost I have limits. At times my own limits have been tested and yeah, my own limits can be subject to change or not. Basically anything that challenges me as a human being, being challenged ain't always a bad thing. Personal growth factors involved, however there can be a point when there is no personal growth to be obtained.

So much dribble is posted about submissives or slave limits, however limits very much apply to us Dominant types. Hell, every human being has limits. I have yet to come across a true no limits human being.

Please forgive me for being well... so organic in nature when it comes to D/s. I can not sit here and bang out some theory about some situation that I'm not currently faced with or have not faced and slap down a one wayism!! I will express this, I've ended a relationship because cheating happened and there was a relationship where I did not end it. I can't sit here and say! Cheat on me and your ass is fucking grass and gone. I will say, this cheat on me and it just might be the End of things. I want to access things before making any decision. Get under the hood and figure out what went wrong, reasons why? Make an accessment if something like cheating is a real threat or not! Big difference when somebody just had a one night stand, verses is actually starting up or has another relationship going on. One is actually a greater threat to the relationship between the two.

I will express this, I read a lot of tightly laid out dogmatic bullshit that people post on here that's not rooted in fucking reality. I have yet to be in a relationship D/s or not D/s where both parties did not go through tests.

One thing that should be clear in any relationship, is that each person is perfectly loosable to the other person. Regardless of one's orientation, The submissive can fuck up and it can lead to the end of things, the Dom can fuck up and it can lead to the end of things.

I see all too often people trying to pull out or play the D/s card, without simply pulling the human card. Trust me, when I seriously want things done my way, I'm a fucking force of nature to be dealt with. However, this does not mean I don't have ears, a mind and a heart. There are times when I was missing the whole picture, or well even where my logic was faulted. Ironic, one of the things I've always made known and has been a standing rule of mine to anybody! Is that somebody see's that I'm about to wiley coyote my ass off the edge of cliff. to open up their mouth and let me know. Seriously, this does not make me any less Dominant in any way.

There's a degree of "It depends" room with me, while at the same time there are things that I won't tolerate or put up with at all. The whole your ass is grass and I'm the lawn mower mode. There also is a time with some very serious matters, when I'm very quiet and I'm wanting to know as much as I can to mentally process and sort things out.

There are things, that I'm accepting about which sort of defies vanilla logic and there are things that I'm not accepting about and it's my way 100% which makes it not Vanilla either.

But seriously, I'm into the relationships as a Dominant person compared to having to have a D/s relationship to the 9th degree. I tend to deal with with submissive or Dominant women. Sort of one extreme to another. However, just not with any old girl that comes along. There has to be chemistry, a good level of communication and some form of established understanding that's workable for both parties.

I'm anything but submissive, and anybody who's treated me like I was or should be, they got the rude awakening pretty quickly. I've openly told people off that I was not their little "bitch boy" or "servent" or "slave"... lol... This just ain't limited to intimate relationships, this has gone into friendships or even band stuff. Fun part, was some of the experiences I had in the Navy. Managed to upset a few Chief Petty Officers in my day. Ironic I actually seemed to get along with Officers compared to the Enlisted ones that had been in Navy since the beginning of time. Oh, the power tripping ego's. Anyways, I was known as a CUNT (civilian under naval training) and I was very happy to admit to being a CUNT. In fact, I would admit to being one Big Cunt and that I'll be the biggest CUNT ever. (Hell, I just rolled with it). My military being evals were not so great, however my work performance and other evals were always extremely high. Anyways, in terms of the power games I was well informed and taught ahead of time. Third Generation Navy dude, and I'm very happy to have returned to my civilian life.

However, being a Petty Officer myself meant that I was in that middle tier of things. Had some very interesting things that happened. I actually had somebody threaten bust me down to size and turn me into a Bosun's mate, was very entertaining because everybody else laughed their ass off at him. The sad truth was that I understood and knew more about the actual job than he did. Took him all of 4 weeks to figure out that him trying to maintain a power trip against me was self defeating. Even more so, since I bailed his own ass out of hot water a couple of times. Sigh, what's my point here? That at times, crap should not be about fucking power trips. Sure, I enjoy power and having authority, I've just never been an asshole with it. I've always been able to get people under me to jump 10 feet high when there was a sincere need to do so. However, I was not making them jump 10 feet high just for the fun of it. This goes into my own work history and not just the military.

Ironic as this might sound but because I was not a mindless robot slave that gave into authority power trips, I actually had some very interesting work assignments duties during my naval schooling. Ended up working in the office of the base commander. Then again, I'm a pretty much a tell it like it is kind of guy and try to be somewhat logical and respectful about it. Plus, I was able to deal with people trying to throw rank weight around. Respect the uniform, Respect their rank, but that did not mean I had to personally respect them or kiss ass, and by no means stand there pissing myself over the fact somebody was a higher rank in the food chain. Long as I was playing by the rules, and as long as I was not breaking the rules, It all was good. I still remember this one Senior chief that thought he had my ass over something, I was standing there just as calm as I could be (holding back information at the time and letting him hang himself a little) and he was not seeing the emotional reaction he wanted to get out of me. LOL!! After about 10 minutes, he was saying something's wrong you're way too calm, and then he doubled checked one small detail yet important detail. It totatally tossed a monkey wrench into his power trip. He just had it out for us Bubble Heads (submarine guys) and was out intentionally trying to find guys to make examples out of.

So what's my point in sharing all this? Some people are just into D/s for the sake of D/s for the sake of the mindless power tripping to throw around weight for the sake of throwing around their own weight. I've never been the kind of Dominant to mindlessly throw around authority for the hell of it with a bad attitude or chip on the shoulder.

Some of the things people post on here, tends to all be rather dogmatic as opposed to dynamic. Dynamic has always been more interesting for me. I've always done my best to take care of anybody under me or in my care. Regardless what kind of relationship it's been.

Trying to use authority or D/s to compensate for some other lack really does not cut it. Just because somebody is Dom or in a position of authority does not mean they are a good leader or somebody being fit to be in charge of things at times. Some people have this notion that people who are Dominant are good at it. Misconception! Along with how attractive people are often thought to be more intelligent.

I've truely known some extremely Dominant people in life time that were as dumb as a box full of rocks, or even were ethically corrupt. It's been a pleasure seeing the fate of some of these people unfold and take on bad directions. Sooner or later the truth always comes out. People are their own worse enemies.

In terms of the lifestyle, I think the submisssives need to test poke and probe at what the Dominant is all about before getting involved. Even at moments during the relationship itself. Some Dominants shatter and fall to pieces when a pebble is cast against the glass house facades they have.

What good is any fucking relationship dynamic, unless it's been tried tested and true blue? It really does not make me piss myself to be tested, challenged or asked questions. My whole world does not go to hell in a hand basket. Some things though, I have very little tolerence for and yes, I have limits to what I will or won't put up with.

I really don't know what good this long winded post is gonna be to this thread. Some people are not grounded in fucking reality, including their own reality of what they are truely all about as a human being, let alone being grounded in reality with D/s or their other relationships.

It's a little hard for me to dump out specific senario's from a what if perspective. At best, I can only draw upon my own well of life experiences. I've learned the meaning of Never say Never. Things ain't always black and white, and it all depends upon how the gears of life align. At times the right gears, situation or circumstances will align and you might be faced with something that tests your own limits on some level.



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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:33:55 AM   
KnightofMists


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I am one of those one strike and your out!

I suppose some are ok if their partner breaks a vow of fidelity... but some are not!

I suppose some are ok if their partner breaks a vow of obedience... but some are not!

I don't judge one as better than the other and I am not sure why one would have problems with the other.. frankly.. I don't care. I have come to terms with what is required in my world and I am not looking to change theirs.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:36:57 AM   
antinomy


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Joined: 3/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Ishy, you know what you signed up for when you walked in the door..... lucky for you that your Master will tolerate such behaviour... I will not. There is no need for it, no excuse for it and a girl how will do that is not compatible enough with Me for it to even be worth My time 'punishing' her for it... I don't buy into nor play the "Make me" game.

Work with Me or get the fuck out..... if there is a problem, We face it together or not at all, I own an adult, not a child, she knows what is required of her, just as for this to work the relationship requires things of Me... I do My side of this, I expect her to do hers.




I'm late to this, but I do have a question. It's about the highlighted bit. Now, I know in a power exchange relationship, only one person is the 'boss'. So, if a girl knows the rule going into it, that's cool. She agreed and all- she does not work with you, she goes.

My question is, do you hold yourself to the same standards? If you don't do something on your side that causes her willfull disobedience, would you expect her to consider herself unowned then and there? Of her own accord? I think that's the sticking point for me. Not only is she human, you are, too. And, your behavior directly influences her own. So, you would not want- or feel entitled to- a second chance if you fucked up? Because, I hear tells, doms do that too on occassion...

< Message edited by antinomy -- 3/25/2010 7:37:40 AM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)
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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:43:15 AM   
RavenMuse


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The answer to your question is in the very part you bolded... I know what is required of Me in this relationship.... and I ensure I fulfil My part of it.

If I didn't then her trust in Me, in who I am wouldn't be there and yes, I'd expect her to be the one calling it a day and she would be right to do so.

Everyone makes mistakes... Wilful disobedience isn't a mistake, it is a decision, a choice. Hit a problem, fine, bring that problem to Me and We work together to resolve it.... Make the choice to act like a petulant two year old, stomping your feet and crying "Shan't, won't, can't make me" and I'm not going to tolerate it. I Own an adult I expect adult behaviour. Make that choice and the consequences are upfront, not a surprise.


< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 3/25/2010 7:48:16 AM >


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to antinomy)
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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:45:01 AM   
antinomy


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Fair enough, and thanks for answering. It's Your relationship, and I'm quite happy the dynamic works for You and Your girl.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 9:06:03 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

The answer to your question is in the very part you bolded... I know what is required of Me in this relationship.... and I ensure I fulfil My part of it.

If I didn't then her trust in Me, in who I am wouldn't be there and yes, I'd expect her to be the one calling it a day and she would be right to do so.

Everyone makes mistakes... Wilful disobedience isn't a mistake, it is a decision, a choice. Hit a problem, fine, bring that problem to Me and We work together to resolve it.... Make the choice to act like a petulant two year old, stomping your feet and crying "Shan't, won't, can't make me" and I'm not going to tolerate it. I Own an adult I expect adult behaviour. Make that choice and the consequences are upfront, not a surprise.



To piggy back this somewhat, I'd say there are definitely things that I could do that would mean one strike and it's finished.  For example, I have all of My boy's financial information.  If I took every cent he had and left him destitute (not a condition of our understanding) I'd expect him to want nothing to do with Me.  I have information that could end his career.  If I used it against him and ruined his livelihood in a malicious fashion, anybody in their right mind would stay as far away from Me as possible.  I could (and I'm really reaching with this one) suddenly decide that I was no longer interested in being the person in authority and be unwilling to provide the structure he needs.  I have honestly seen that happen and in one specific case, it was a Master who had been into this for thirty years.

While I've really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread, it does cause Me a bit of concern that so many folks think the one strike and out theory is tied to mistakes, a bad day, or some of the other situations that it really isn't the case.  Also, I think we may be falling a bit short in neglecting to mention the time and trust element.  There's absolutely an investment to be made in those areas.  We're skipping that whole beginning part in many cases where we're talking about long standing dynamics.

Whiplash mentioned testing during his comment and I wanted to say something about that.  I'm going to say that I'm not a fan of intentional testing.  Life brings enough situations all on it's own without them specifically being created to 'test' how another person is going to react.  This doesn't mean to say that I've never encountered it.  However, there comes a point in a dynamic where if the s type still feels the need to test the M, something is seriously wrong.  Something hasn't developed and that means that somewhere in there, an underlying issue is at the root of it.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to RavenMuse)
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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 9:23:35 AM   
allthatjaz


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How far would you take the rules of Master/slave? would you take it as far as marriage? as having a family? Would you consider your slave could be your soul mate, your lover, friend and perhaps life partner?

I'm not submissive but I could be considered to do submissive things. I don't kneel but I do look after my partner. There is always a pleasant karma over our roof that is peaceful, caring and loving. He never joined me because he wanted a submissive, he joined me because he wanted a woman in his life that could understand him. I don't argue, don't shout, don't throw my toys out of the pram when things don't go my way but I do everything I can to make our lives good.
He is not a dominant and yet I joined him because he had the ability to bring out such a wonderful karma in me. His expectations of me are high and its those very expectations that have brought about this joint tranquility.
He would never tell me that he is my Dominant because he knows I would laugh and yet he has the ability to control me with such ease. I never thought it was possible and the only way it was, was for it to be the most natural thing in the world. I didn't need heir achy I just needed a man that understood his own mind and had the ability to understand mine.

My partner has never once said 'One strike and your out'. Even in our early days when we spoke about what was acceptable and what wasn't, he never made that threat.
I know there are things that I could never forgive him for and I know there are things that he could never forgive me for but they are unspoken things.
If I was to throw my toys out of the pram then he would calmly make me pick them up. He would look at what happened, why it had happened and how 'we' were going to resolve things. I know he treasures everything we have too much to let it go over something that is possibly nothing.
The day he makes a threat to me that I could be out if I did this or that, is the day I will grieve because those words would tell me that this relationship was made of wood and not of stone.


_____________________________

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 10:46:29 AM   
DWCskitten


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
Bingo.... you trust your Master to handle things realisticly. If you hit a problem that means you CAN'T then you take the problem to Him for His help in finding a way round it. "Won't" is a choice, it is a decision, a refusal to work with Him.


Exactly.

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New beginnings...my first poly relationship.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 11:08:24 AM   
allthatjaz


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Its funny but the one word I am strongly advised not to use is 'can't'
'cant' is so often used as a cop out and I used to use it a lot.
I can't work that winch, I can't hoist that sail, I can't tie this monster of a boat up, I can't cook on this agar, I can't, I can't, I can't!
Of course I could but 'cant' got me out of it and made my life easier and his life more tiring because if I couldn't do it then he had to!
He is more generous with 'wont' but its said as 'won't be able to'
I won't be able to put my hand inside a dead chicken, I won't be able to live too far from my children, I won't be able to climb the mast in a storm.
That word is a surety and always given with good reason.


_____________________________

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Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 11:28:03 AM   
ishyB


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Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Ishy, you know what you signed up for when you walked in the door..... lucky for you that your Master will tolerate such behaviour... I will not. There is no need for it, no excuse for it and a girl how will do that is not compatible enough with Me for it to even be worth My time 'punishing' her for it... I don't buy into nor play the "Make me" game.

Work with Me or get the fuck out..... if there is a problem, We face it together or not at all, I own an adult, not a child, she knows what is required of her, just as for this to work the relationship requires things of Me... I do My side of this, I expect her to do hers.



Greetings Master,

I agree we wouldn't be compatible, I would never beg the collar of somebody with a "one strike you're out" rule, just like you would never get a girl who wouldn't agree to such a rule.

In the situation I described, our relationship would have been defacto over, under a rule like that, because I had already made up my mind that I was leaving, and that that would be for the best for everybody.
It was only because Master doesn't rigidly sticks to rules like that that he was able to figure out what was actually happening in his house when he was gone.

The foundation of our relationship has always been different than what yours seems to be.
I, for instance, don't owe him my obedience. I've never promised or committed to him that I would obey him, never will do that either.

I'm not one to like the whole "make me" thing either; I don't believe that you can truly make somebody do something within the legal framework we find ourselves in.
I do however only obey Master because he just inspires that responds from me because of the man that he is.
Should he stop being that type of man, and thus stop inspiring my obedience, I don't owe it to him, myself or anybody else to follow his commands any longer. Where that would leave our relationship would have to be examined then, but I will never operate under the pretence that he is somehow entitled to my obedience, simple because he chooses to call me his slave.
I would be holding myself in slavery in such a situation, to honor my own word, instead of being held in slavery by him and I just don't see the point in that.

I wish you well,

ishy


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 11:41:53 AM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

While I've really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread, it does cause Me a bit of concern that so many folks think the one strike and out theory is tied to mistakes, a bad day, or some of the other situations that it really isn't the case.  Also, I think we may be falling a bit short in neglecting to mention the time and trust element.  There's absolutely an investment to be made in those areas.  We're skipping that whole beginning part in many cases where we're talking about long standing dynamics.



This is just it.  I think folks are confusing the early days and learning curve with long standing relationship and expectations.  I was and am not one for sex outside of the lifetime committed relationship (was going to say marriage, but that doesn't mean in this culture what I am trying to say), but there are plenty who would argue that monogamy does not kick in until there is both a significant, committed relationship as well as that expectation of exclusivity.  Those things are not present from the first time you speak to a person.  They develop over time.  This discussion is assuming that that time has passed and that relationship and expectation exists.  Do I really expect someone to be exclusively faithful to me because I said hello to them at a bookstore and gave them my number?  Of course not.  How about when we have been with each other for a couple years and have exchanged wedding vows and rings?  Yes, unless we agreed together that the marriage would be an open or poly one.

It's the same thing here.  I can make mistakes, have a bad day, or even not be sure how to communicate with my partner in the early going and that is forgivable.  Not being sure and not completely trusting his lead is also understandable.  I learn all of this through time, patience, and exploring together.  After a some time and a lot of laying out the boundaries of the relationship, I should either be willing and able to live within them with minimal issue or I should walk away deciding this isn't right for me.  I didn't say there wouldn't be the the occasional difficulty.  There will be and we can deal with those things together.  We have proven that by the fact that we remain together.  It will all become a part of that same learning and journey that we have been on from the beginning.  We will work through it. 

There is nothing to work through, however, when the fundamental boundaries of the relationship have been blatantly violated.  If I decidedly and with full intent cross a known line, then I clearly neither want nor am able to exist within those confines for whatever reason.  I made a decision based on my tolerance for the limits placed upon me.  Can the relationship be adjusted?  Possibly.  It may not be the same though.  If what I really want is M/s, compromising that limit may in fact cause us to enter into something other than M/s depending upon what it takes to resolve the issue.

Keeping a M/s dynamic in place AND resolving a willful disobedience situation without releasing the slave is to my mind almost impossible and maybe not even worth it in the end.  It is the absolutism of the thing that makes this so difficult.  If I am in absolute control and someone defies that and I change MY requirements only in an effort to keep this person in my life, then I have abdicated the control I claimed to have and want to have.  If, however, on further examination I realize that there was something about that area that I was in the wrong about and adjust it, then there is no harm, but those situations would be pretty small in number.  If there is no issue of wrong on the dominant side, then bending to the submissive's will on something set up as not acceptable is damaging to the dynamic of the relationship.  How much bending can I do before the submissive doesn't respect me at all and is actually controlling me?  At what point are we no longer doing what we think we are doing together?

It seems like submissives want their "limits" to be beyond reproach.  Violation of that sort even once would be a dealbreaker.  That's one strike and you're out too.  There doesn't seem to be all this consideration they are supposed to do about whether or not their dominant was just having a bad day, was confused, etc.  Last I checked, dominant people were human too and not above mistakes, yet the one strike rule seems to be held to an absolute standard upon them by a lot of submissives who then decry when it is held over them as well even though it is a far more tempered and compassionate form of the same.  Look at all the things the dominants on this thread have stated do not count:  mistakes, bad days, inability, illness, and more.  The only thing that counts is blatant and willful disobedience.  Even then, the dominants will go the extra mile to try to understand it and be certain that is what it actually is, but still it doesn't suit the subbies.  They want security even when pissing all over the dynamic they claim to cherish.  I don't get it.  I am very confused by this.

I cannot fathom a time when I would even consider disobeying in pure defiance.  I further cannot fathom why on earth anyone would put up with being treated in such a disrespectful manner, especially when it was part of the bedrock of our relationship in the first place.  I would assume that the relationship, dynamic, and even the person doesn't matter anymore and there is no respect, love, trust, or anything else good left in order for that to be the only course of action available.  It saddens me to even think about it because it feels an awful lot like the end of something to me.  I can't even dwell on it because it is simply too painful to EVER think of feeling that way toward my partner.  I find it cruel to think he should meekly accept such treatment and hope to never EVER treat a person in that way regardless of dynamic.

lovingpet 



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(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 11:53:19 AM   
lovingpet


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Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Its funny but the one word I am strongly advised not to use is 'can't'
'cant' is so often used as a cop out and I used to use it a lot.
I can't work that winch, I can't hoist that sail, I can't tie this monster of a boat up, I can't cook on this agar, I can't, I can't, I can't!
Of course I could but 'cant' got me out of it and made my life easier and his life more tiring because if I couldn't do it then he had to!
He is more generous with 'wont' but its said as 'won't be able to'
I won't be able to put my hand inside a dead chicken, I won't be able to live too far from my children, I won't be able to climb the mast in a storm.
That word is a surety and always given with good reason.



I've been told to be very careful about using the word "can't".  I have been advised to be honest about what the issue really was.  I can say that I don't want to do something.  It doesn't mean I will get my way about it, but it is honest and not held against me.  I can say I am scared, don't know how, and any number of other things, but if I say I can't do something it had better be physically or otherwise literally impossible for me to accomplish.  If it isn't, then we have a problem that must be dealt with.  One of them is my honesty.  Another is my ability to come to him and communicate.  Another is my passive aggressive attempt at disobedience.  I haven't run up on this yet because I am careful about using that word.  I also know my partner is a compassionate man and knows that, though I surrendered my limits to him, there is nothing in the world I can do about my limitations except work through them, around them, or whatever he determines together with him. 

lovingpet

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(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 11:54:09 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
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Lovingpet, that was a wonnnnnnnnnnderful way of putting what was in my head but from your perspective.

There are hundreds of little things I want done my way. Things that, if consistently done a different way, would annoy me. Yet, just because the tp roll is put on backwards, I am not going to fly into a flaming tizzy and bellow "Your OUT!". That would be sublimely ridiculous!

Unless...

Unless those hundreds of little things were done purposely different, after repeated requests to do them the way I want, with the INTENT of ......purposeful disobedience. With no regard for how I want them done. Just doing what she wanted and "Thbbbbbbbbbbbbtttttttt!!!!!!!! to LeeAnn!"

There is a huge difference between, "I am sorry LeeAnn, I keep putting that tp roll on that way because it is a habit so deeply ingrained into me. My dad used to beat me for putting it on your way." and  "I want it this way, it's on the damned dispenser, what the hell difference does it make?!?!" or something along those lines. A fool would toss a slave out for the first one.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 12:41:01 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

I, for instance, don't owe him my obedience. I've never promised or committed to him that I would obey him, never will do that either.
*snip*
I do however only obey Master because he just inspires that responds from me because of the man that he is.
Should he stop being that type of man, and thus stop inspiring my obedience, I don't owe it to him, myself or anybody else to follow his commands any longer. Where that would leave our relationship would have to be examined then, but I will never operate under the pretence that he is somehow entitled to my obedience, simple because he chooses to call me his slave.
I would be holding myself in slavery in such a situation, to honor my own word, instead of being held in slavery by him and I just don't see the point in that.



And to me, it seems like you are both saying the same thing from different sides of the dynamic.  He is saying that willful disobedience indicates that the respect, trust, and dynamic have been compromised.  You are saying that if you were to be willfully disobedient, that it would be because that trust and respect in your master was gone and with it the dynamic of the relationship.

You talk of your submission and obedience being inspired and I would argue that, in order to inspire such, you would have to have a high degree of respect and trust in the individual that was able to bring that forth in you.  Certainly, if you no longer have that respect and trust, then it becomes increasingly difficult to submit and obey until eventually one of you will determine it is over.  The only question is how long the relationship will be left on life support. 

He talks of submission and obedience being expected.  If the submissive respects and trusts the owner, then the obvious result of that would be (inasmuch as he/she were capable) submission and obedience.  It is an expect outcome based upon the submissive's view of the dominant's character.  If that view changes, then the behavior will change as well.  If what the dominant expects is no longer happening, then it a sign that there is deep trouble in the relationship.  How troubled and stormy can things get before the ship breaks apart?

It seems like a very natural cycle to me.  If he inspires, the submissive respects, trusts, submits, and obeys.  If the submissive does those things, then the dominant knows they are respected and trusted and expects that to continue and it will so long as the dominant remains respectable and trustworthy in the submissive's eyes, which in turn continues to inspire those same submissive responses.  Willful disobedience is a break in the cycle.  Whether or not the disobedience is the original break is not always obvious at first.  It is just the very loud and clear signal that the relationship is broken.  What to do about it and how it happened are matters of examination. 

lovingpet 

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 3/25/2010 12:42:06 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 12:47:21 PM   
kadine


Posts: 14
Joined: 8/11/2006
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You speak of your girl as having one choice left to her when trust is lost. ""When you trust enough in Me, in My approach and in My duty of care, THEN you submit. Once you submit, you are Mine in mind, body and soul. If you ever loose that trust, the one and only choise that remains entirely yours is to walk away.... but it is a one way door"
There's only one thing for me that would have me leaving my Master, and that is any sort of physical or emotional harm done to my children, for they have no defender but myself. Other than that, I cannot and will not leave. My first and only choice made is the one to submit to him and after that, leaving isn't an option. Once my surrender is given, I do not have the will to take it back. It has to be taken back, by him. I have to be told to leave the relationship, otherwise, I will continue doing my best to serve him.
I'm sure I'll get many responses telling me how crazy I am or questions about 'well, what if he...' and I understand that some may find my post frustrating or outrageous, for a while, I thought there was something -wrong- with me.
I have spent a long time trying to find out the 'why' of how I am, and why I need what I need, went through many tears and much anger. But with a bit of experience and the loving guidance of someone very dear to me, I've stopped trying to figure out why, and I finally love and accept myself, for how I am.
It's simply how I was made.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 1:08:42 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

And to me, it seems like you are both saying the same thing from different sides of the dynamic.  He is saying that willful disobedience indicates that the respect, trust, and dynamic have been compromised.  You are saying that if you were to be willfully disobedient, that it would be because that trust and respect in your master was gone and with it the dynamic of the relationship.



Hi lovingpet,

I see why it would seem that we are saying the same thing, but I still don't think we are.

Yes, my obedience is based on trust, but why should that mean that that one time I doubt him, even for a moment, that would mean the end of our relationship?
And that's what the "one strike you're out" rule basically implies: "doubt me once and you're out the door".

Personally, I gain trust in people when those people show me, by actions, in time of doubt, that I can still trust in them... especially in times of doubt.
This is exactly what Master did every time I’ve disobeyed him so far.
I doubted him for one reason or another, and his response was to show me I could still trust him, which caused me to revert back to my obedient self.

Personally, I could never be comfortable in a "one strike you're out" relationship, because I simply couldn't bring myself to trust somebody who tells me from the get got: "I'll drop you like a ton of bricks if you ever doubt me".

I wish you well,

ishy
 

< Message edited by ishyB -- 3/25/2010 1:21:18 PM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 1:15:30 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Lovingpet, that was a wonnnnnnnnnnderful way of putting what was in my head but from your perspective.

There is a huge difference between, "I am sorry LeeAnn, I keep putting that tp roll on that way because it is a habit so deeply ingrained into me. My dad used to beat me for putting it on your way." and  "I want it this way, it's on the damned dispenser, what the hell difference does it make?!?!" or something along those lines. A fool would toss a slave out for the first one.



Thank you!

As for the above, even at that, I'd want to know why this attitude over something simple.  My guess is that, unless it has been an ongoing and willful pattern like you described in the rest of your post, it really would be something that could be resolved.  It may be an easy fix like an aspirin for the headache that was making her bitchy and irritable or it may be more serious, but even some rather unsavory behavior can be dealt with successfully and not end the relationship. 

I think we are talking about some pretty profound stuff that falls into this one strike category and is a very narrow set of circumstances.  I am seeing it being expanded to include every little infraction, but I don't think that is an accurate picture.  We are talking about things far, far more serious than any of the mistakes, blunders, or inabilities that have been brought to bear on this.  We are talking about heavy, relationship altering stuff.  Otherwise this really is a stupid premise after all.

lovingpet 

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(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 1:20:01 PM   
allyC


Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
Greetings to everyone!  Hello, ishy! While I wasn't there to see it, what I gather from your words, ishy, is that your "I won't" was really more of a "I'm afraid to ruin everything so I can't."  It wasn't motivated by an absolute refusal to comply (simply because you could)  but it seems moreso out of fear because you were certain that if you didn't leave, everything would be ruined for these two people that you have come to care for quite deeply. Perhaps Master Bull sensed that and realized that your "won't" was a "can't" and did what was necessary for you to comply so that he could figure out what was going on and how to orchestrate its repair. I would imagine that the "obey or leave" consequence has a curve just like anything else.  What was the command?  Why was it refused?  Was it the defense mechanism of fear that was somehow triggered by the command?  Or was it something simple like "get those dishes done." I have often said that I do not live beneath a one strike or "obey or leave" yoke.  But there is a lot of gray there that doesn't fit neatly into those shortly worded catch phrases.  I have disobeyed before.  Not because I wanted to test or to play the "let's be a stubborn brat" game.  I disobeyed out of fear.  I suppose it was willful because well, I chose to disobey.  BUT I didn't put my foot down, scoff at what he told me to do and stomp my feet saying "no!"  My disobedience wasn't childish or intentionally disrespectful.  It was driven out of fear, insecurity, and allowing my emotions to get the better of me.  He sensed that and did what was necessary to analyze the situation and then approached it in the way that he felt would bring about the resolution that was best for the situation. I realize that everyone's dynamic is different and that M/s and D/s vary from relationship to relationship, however, I also believe that with everything there is a curve and a truckload of gray.  I think the "why" of the disobedience would be more reason to continue or end the relationship rather than the act itself.  Kneejerk reactions, prior conditioning, collective experience, situational emotions and a person's state of mind all play into the choices they make.   I think in the long run, it would depend on more than the simple act of saying no - it would depend on the entire situation surrounding it and the motivation behind it.   On the other hand, if one had a slave who just decided that he or she could just disobey whenever they felt like it because they weren't equally committed to the relationship, then I would think an "out the door" command would be an apt one. Well wishes to everyone! Cav's ally

(in reply to kadine)
Profile   Post #: 80
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