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RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 9:59:40 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Thank you for your reply. Your examples were what I was looking for. We ALL have some sort of 'one strike and out'.



I completely agree.... some are very much aware of what that is... others not so much. to note... I am much more hopeful of those that are aware of it than those that are not.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 10:12:36 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

The "one strike" people seem to be saying that disobedience is always inappropriate and means the end of a relationship.


really???..... I haven't been getting that at all.... In fact... I been seeing that though disobedience/mistakes is always inappropriate that can be understood and constructively dealt with.. HOWEVER... Willfully Disobedience is not only never appropriate it also means an end to the M/s dynamic at a minimum and most likely any type of relationship. It seems you are unable to comprehend the distinction!


quote:


So basically, it would seem to me that those who practice "one strike" not only expect total and unconditional trust from the first moment of submission, but they also expect the other person to already come with a learned set of skills of what the appropriate way for a slave is to behave when she is upset, even if the slave in question might have never before related to other people in the same mindset as she is kept now.
On top of that, they also expect the slave to be capable of being absolutely perfect in this aspect, and any slip-ups in trust or obedience aren't considered a learning curve, but a cause for determination.


it would seem you have not read with much thought what is actually being said or you reading comprehension issues. For what you stated above is very far from what I have been reading in this thread.


quote:


I know for me, it is sometimes very hard to learn to accept that my life is now under the control of another, especially since I've always been a very free spirit, and very independent. Especially in times of anger or doubt, and especially in the beginning of our relationship, I had the tendency to revert back to my "normal" baseline of wanting to be in control myself because that is what I had been used to doing every day of my life prior to meeting Master.


I suspect their are many just like you that struggled in one way or another with their enslavement to their Master particularly in the beginning. I know Kyra had her own fears and issues and it was something that I worked with her in resolving in a constructive and heathy manner. When I look back.. it wasn't all that difficult.. of course.. it wasnt as easy as Alandra..... maybe because I was with Alandra when she was much younger and brought alot less life experiences and cultural norms to the table than Kyra did.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 10:17:51 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		"ORIGINAL: ishyB

The "one strike" people seem to be saying that disobedience is always inappropriate and means the end of a relationship.


really???..... I haven't been getting that at all.... In fact... I been seeing that though disobedience/mistakes is always inappropriate that can be understood and constructively dealt with.. HOWEVER... Willfully Disobedience is not only never appropriate it also means an end to the M/s dynamic at a minimum and most likely any type of relationship. It seems you are unable to comprehend the distinction!"



Hell, I'll go further. For me the disobedience has to not only be willful, but flagrant.

Kinda the difference between a 5 yard facemask penalty and the 15 yard personal foul variety.

< Message edited by Kana -- 3/26/2010 10:25:23 PM >

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RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 10:22:06 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Kinda the difference between a 5 yard facemask penalty and the 15 yard personal foul variety.




it seems the thing that most are missing is "INTENT" of the behavior ....... Willful INTENT to Disobey is NEVER acceptable in my world!

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 10:24:20 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Motive is what I was getting at too. Sometimes even the best slave has a bad day, says something regrettable, chooses the wrong course. Varying degrees of consequence deal with that.
But a flagrant, intentional act?
Now that's a completely different game.
Call it disobedience in the first degree.

< Message edited by Kana -- 3/26/2010 10:45:10 PM >

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

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RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 11:13:46 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

The "one strike" people seem to be saying that disobedience is always inappropriate and means the end of a relationship.


really???..... I haven't been getting that at all.... In fact... I been seeing that though disobedience/mistakes is always inappropriate that can be understood and constructively dealt with.. HOWEVER... Willfully Disobedience is not only never appropriate it also means an end to the M/s dynamic at a minimum and most likely any type of relationship. It seems you are unable to comprehend the distinction!



Greetings Master,

You are absolutely right of course. That was not what had been said, but the way you read it was also not as I meant it, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear.

I meant to say:
"The "one strike" people seem to be saying that any act of willful disobedience is always inappropriate and means the end of a relationship."

The reason I cut of the "willful" part was not because I hadn't been reading/understanding what has been said in this topic, but because of personal bias of mine in the way my relationship works.

To use kyra's example: if I would forget to take the cell phone, that wouldn't be considered disobedience but forgetfulness.
I would still get in trouble for it, of course. But mistakes, accidents, situations beyond my control, and so on wouldn't be labelled as an act of disobedience, instead, they would be considered "displeasing".

For something to be considered disobedience, I would have to actively do that which I know would be considered displeasing.

Thus, when I wrote disobedience in my above quote, in my head it sounded perfectly as if I had said "willful disobedience" because that's the only kind of disobedience that is possible for me. I am sorry that I was not more careful in choosing my words, as I know that not all on this board have the same way of defining words.

I don't have time to address your other comments right now, but will do so tomorrow.... while being more careful on how I phrase things.

I wish you well,

ishy


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 7:31:11 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
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Status: offline 		I don't know why other people have an issue with this Raven. Honestly, I don't have a clue why any master would tolerate knowing, willful disobedience. In my mind it has always been true that were Carol to knowingly disobey me, then she very clearly not my slave in her own head. Right at that moment, we found where the edge of "total" was. So then why on god's green earth would I go on treating her like something she was not?

As you correctly said, there are lots of more constructive ways to work out issues than "No".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 8:03:23 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		In the interest of providing a personal example from my own relationship instead of a hypothetical, here is something that happened within the first year of our relationship and maybe within the first six months.

As most regular posters on here know, we were long distance for the first couple of years of our relationship. It was something that we all found very challenging to deal with. One evening I was in a lot of pain; I was hurt and extremely upset. I was still holding on to the expectation that he should talk to me just because I am upset and he should continue to talk to me until I feel better. I find it amusing now, but in the beginning those two expectations caused me a lot of grief with him.

Needless to say, he did not share those expectations. It was extremely late, we both had to work the next day and he told me to go to sleep and we would talk tomorrow. Then the fear of abandonment came up and I lost control of my emotions. I behaved very poorly and my emotions were controlling my behavior. This was completely and totally irrational and unrealistic on my part. He reiterated his instructions that I go to bed. I continued to push. He then very clearly and very plainly let me know that I was dangerously close to crossing the line of willful disobedience and he in detail explained what I needed to do at that moment to get away from the line.

At that point, I knew I had a choice. Do his will or choose to leave the relationship. It took every bit of strength I had to do his will in that moment, but the alternative was unacceptable to me. I want this relationship and I am not going to allow my fucked up emotional state to screw that up for me.

I don't think I have ever come close to that line since. We had talked for awhile and I was being completely irrational and unreasonable. He took the steps that he was willing to take to keep our relationship and to get me back in the place that he wanted me in. It was then up to me to choose if my irrational emotions were more important to me than the relationship that I have with him.

He is extremely strict with me in my expression of emotions and in making sure that I stay in the headspace that he wants me in. If I were ever to get to a point where I was in a headspace to defy his will, then he would have already put in all the work that he was willing to do to keep me as his slave. If I were to get to a point where my intent was to defy him, then the relationship was dead long ago and we are just getting around to acknowledging it.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 8:23:40 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

At that point, I knew I had a choice. Do his will or choose to leave the relationship. It took every bit of strength I had to do his will in that moment, but the alternative was unacceptable to me. I want this relationship and I am not going to allow my fucked up emotional state to screw that up for me.



The bolded text is and was a rather significant moment of realization for me in Kyra's process of being my slave. I realize many get off on the control and enforced enslavement... However... for me I seek to build a level of "internalized enslavement" that regardless of my girls emotional states or thoughts... they will always make the choice to willfully obey! In fact... to wilfiully disobey is nothing short of denying who they are. For me... it's getting them to that point where... to be who they are is to self-identify in a very authentic way that they are my slave and that means to be obedient to me. ... while one brings them to this point... one also teaches them the skills to be themselves each and every day with confidence and security.







_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 8:29:07 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline 		This is a Reply to the OP after reading his first post only.

I agree with you about 90%.

See the extra 10% comes from the unforseeable acts that happen with time.

I have the belief system that if my slave, starts using drugs I would throw her out.

After 4 years together it is more likely that I would try to get her help and some form of Rehab, that simply saying "Fuck Off" would be easier said than actually done.

However there are line in the sand that if crossed "Goodbye" becomes a very viable option.

There was a situation that occured here the other day. The girl was feeling that she wasn't getting enough free time, yet wasn't getting her usual duties done and this was not acceptable to me. So we readdressed the household duties and opened up time for her to do so. Then all the sudden she was found doing "her time" ALL the time. By Cutting the duties in half and splitting them out she was able to finish them in like an hour to two every day and then went about her lesiure. I pointed this out and stated that I thought if she could het half of the things done in 2 hours why she was unable to get all the things done in 4 hours and she did not have an answer. So we went about another experiemnet where I monitored her cleaning in a normal day, I stayed home and just watched her clean the house. In my judgement she still tried to clean the house slower than she could but in 5 hours everything I expected done was done every day. She doesn't work outside the house so I pointed out that it seems to me that her leisure time was more important than the order of the house and that would not be acceptable that leisure should be a reward or what is done after everything else is done.

The point is that some things are not cut and dry as Obey or Leave many things just need to be discussed and both sides accounted for. Once all the chips are on the table and both sides are aware that all the information is known and still no one is willing to address the issue.... THEN someone needs to be out on their ass.

The Problem with addressing the Elephant in the living room is that once everyone is aware that it is there now they need to figure out how to eat it.

QSM

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 8:59:38 AM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

The point is that some things are not cut and dry as Obey or Leave many things just need to be discussed and both sides accounted for. Once all the chips are on the table and both sides are aware that all the information is known and still no one is willing to address the issue.... THEN someone needs to be out on their ass.

The Problem with addressing the Elephant in the living room is that once everyone is aware that it is there now they need to figure out how to eat it.



MOST things aren't quite that cut and dried.  That has been the point made over and over again.  It is an EXTREMELY narrow set of circumstances that fall into this category including some that really do seem to fit.  It occurs when absolutely all the good things about the relationship and its very foundation is comprised beyond repair.  Clearly, if there is a beyond repair, there is room for repair prior to that point.

Eating the elephant is the trick.  Sometimes it is quite delicious and winds up doing a belly good.  Other times it is so full of toxins as to be deadly to even touch it.  My partner and I have been through problems.  They have enriched our relationship rather than destroy it, but we still had to face that elephant and deal with it.  I have had elephants in other relationship that came darn close to quite literally killing me and the only option was to run as far from that poisoned elephant and the person who brought it in the room as possible.  There are even all levels inbetween too.

I guess, for me, like others who have spoken on this as well, it is as simple as I WANT to obey and he and the relationship are far more important to me than whatever might impede me.  I still have a learning curve and I am willing to bet it gets even bigger after we move in a couple months and we are with each other all the time.  I am willing to bet that there will be times of confusion, fear, not understanding, and even internal struggle.  I am also willing to bet that there is NONE of it we can't get through together because my willingness, love, trust, and respect are all there.  We communicate well and both take responsibility for the health of ourselves, each other, and the relationship.  I don't foresee a strike of this kind anywhere as far as I can see.  I actually do feel pretty secure.

lovingpet



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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 9:08:37 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The thing about the one strike and you're out is that the activities that would constitute the one strike should have been discussed upfront. I'm monogamous and heterosexual. If he suddenly announced I had to be bisexual and poly then I couldn't obey, any more than I could change my age, height or gender identification. He might consider this refusal of mine to be willful disobedience but I would see it as him changing the basis of the established relationship. And if he did that, it would essentially mean this relationship was over and I was a free party being asked to enter a different relationship. Which I would have the right to decline and would.

We both have made promises here, and either both parties keep them or the contract is null and void.


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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 9:25:16 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		That's just the thing, Des.  All that is happening in this "one strike" context is that those things are being put out front from the beginning or early on versus being implied, unspoken, or revealed over time.  That is really the one and only difference I am seeing.

I can't necessarily relate to your examples.  I have things that I would not be happy about doing or that I believe would damage me irreparably to do, but that is all in HIS hands.  I am willing to do what I may not be happy about and I trust him not to harm his property.  That is a different discussion altogether, but I do understand the gist of what you are saying.  As far as I'm concerned, this is a dominant's version of having a hard and intransgressible limit.  I would encourage those entering a new "one strike" dynamic to have a clear idea what that means to the dominant and really weigh if that is realistic for them.  It is going to mean something slightly different to different people and that needs to be as clear as possible in order for the submissive to do well avoiding approaching that point.  Once again, it is a communication thing.

lovingpet 

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 3/27/2010 9:26:48 AM >

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 9:31:51 AM   
ishyB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Needless to say, he did not share those expectations. It was extremely late, we both had to work the next day and he told me to go to sleep and we would talk tomorrow. Then the fear of abandonment came up and I lost control of my emotions. I behaved very poorly and my emotions were controlling my behavior. This was completely and totally irrational and unrealistic on my part. He reiterated his instructions that I go to bed. I continued to push. He then very clearly and very plainly let me know that I was dangerously close to crossing the line of willful disobedience and he in detail explained what I needed to do at that moment to get away from the line.

At that point, I knew I had a choice. Do his will or choose to leave the relationship. It took every bit of strength I had to do his will in that moment, but the alternative was unacceptable to me. I want this relationship and I am not going to allow my fucked up emotional state to screw that up for me.



Thank you so much Kyra, that made so much sense.
We've been tiptoeing around this for a while, unable to point the incompatibility in our opinions, but your post just made it very clear that -at least for me- the reason why it came across as so foreign for me is because of the different way I define concepts.

If I would have been in the situation you describe in your example, and Master would have commanded me once already to go to bed, he MIGHT have repeated the command a second time without considering it disobedience, but anything but instance compliance at that point would have been considered disobedience on my behalf.
The point where your Master was explaining to you that if you didn't obey now, he would consider it disobedience, would have already been the point of no return for me.
Disobedience would have already happened, and at that point, it would only become a matter of how to deal with it.

So to me, what was being said sounded very confusing, because I kept imagining situations like you described; you ignoring that first command and then him saying "that's it, you're out" because to me "ignoring a command" = disobedience.
I've read enough of your relationship with him on these boards to feel like something didn't exactly add up.

The way your Master dealt with it was probably very similar to what my Master would have done; he would have talked to me, and made it clear to me what the implications and consequences of my actions would be if I pushed it beyond that point (though the consequence may or may not be termination of the relationship, that would be depended on circumstances).
But even though he would explain to me the implications that pushing it even further would have, like a possibility of release, it still wouldn't change the fact that I would already have been disobedient.

It seems that our disagreement didn't come from a different method of dealing with things, but with a different line in the sand of what is considered disobedience and what not. Like I explained before to your Master, to me disobedience can only be willful, anything else is a mistake. But this also implies that any act where I would ignore a direct order like was given to you that night would be considered willful, and thus disobedience.

To me, it really makes no sense that one would equal slave with no willful disobedience, ever, because the definition I use for the word slave is a lot closer to that of a legal slave then what most people in the BDSM side of things use.

The definition I use for "slave" is: "someone entirely dominated by some influence or person; "a slave to fashion"; "a slave to cocaine"; "his mother was his abject slave""
Note that this definition in no way implies consent on behalf of the slave. When somebody is "a slave to cocaine" they might very well willfully try to quit the cocaine (disobey it), and they may or may not be successful in doing this, but the very act of choosing to disobey doesn't make them any less of a slave to cocaine. The only thing that breaks their slavery is if they can ride themselves of having their life dominated by cocaine.

To me, the same thing applies to my slavery.
I don't have to want to be a slave to be a slave.
I don't even have to want to obey to be a slave.
I can think my Master is the biggest prick on the planet, hate him, want to disobey him, try to disobey him... but as long as I am under his influence... I'm still his slave.
I wouldn't stop being his slave until that point where he is no longer able to influence me to do his bidding. So even if I would rebel, and would tell him to fuck off, and would tell him "no way I'll ever do that" I would still be his slave IF the end result was that I did exactly what he wanted.
Just like a junkie can tell himself he's going to quit, and then end up getting high once again anyways.
Telling him that I'm no longer his slave and that I won't obey has no bearing on my slavery, as long as I end up obeying in the end.

It seems I can explain your context in my terminoligy as well:
Willful disobedience (ignoring the command) had no bearing on your slavery, because you ended up obeying in the end and it wasn't until your Master put a clear line in the sand "further disobedience will have THIS concequence" that you got back in line and did what he said.
As a side note, my Master has, in the past, made it clear to me like your Master did in that situations "further disobedience will result in termination of the relationship" and, just like you, I have no doubt that he would keep to his word if I would have pushed it further.

I wish you well,

ishy

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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RE: One strike and out - 3/27/2010 12:04:58 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
If I would try to uphold a role in our relationship, that would mean I would be self-defining how I feel my role in his life should be, which is something he would not accept from me. It is rather, he who chooses what role I have in his life and who inspires me to react in such a way that I fulfill that role. I am, not allowed to try to make myself act a certain way towards him; he would not accept that from me.

If I would stop reacting naturally to him and instead would act like I feel I should as his slave, which would be a deal breaker in our relationship. In a sense, if all my senses would scream to rebel against him, and I would instead force myself to obey him because I felt I owed it to him, he would discipline me for that if he would find out. He would discipline me for presuming that I have the right to dictate my own behavior.

My Master doesn't feel so strongly about it - he has had a couple of women who felt generally submissive serve him. If I was able to suck it up and make myself do what he wanted *without* it making me resentful or potentially damaging the relationship, he would trust my judgement that I could handle it, and we'd discuss it more later. I can't submit by conscious choice, any more than I can decide to fall in love. It's very much based on how I respond to him, how I react to him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
Disobedience is a sign something is off in the relationship. It means it is time for the hard work of relationship building and maintinence.
...I am human, but there has yet to be anything he has asked of me that, even if I hated it, I didn't know deep down was best for me, him, and our relationship.

I'm glad that your Master has only asked things of you that were ultimately positive, but that isn't true of all M/s and D/s relationships I've seen around here. I agree, if I were disobedient, then there would be something wrong, and we'd try to fix the problem and hopefully have the relationship become stronger. I don't see how that could happen if he broke up with me instead! I'm not going to get defiant or rebellious for no reason - I wasn't willfully disobedient even once in my 3 years as a submissive with my previous Dominant, and I haven't been so far with my Master. We both accept that that is a possible outcome if he pushes me hard enough in an area I'm not ready for yet.

wandersalone, in that situation, my Master would expect me to bring up my concerns to him, not release myself. If he was unwilling to listen to me, if he were completely unreasonable, I'd think that maybe he was sick or exhausted or something and give it a few days for both of us to think things over before making a drastic decision.

kyra, I also would view that as forgetfulness, rather than disobedience. All this talk of cell phones, eggs, and toilet paper just seems so absurd - do you truly think someone would rebel dramatically over something that minor? There was one specific, somewhat play-related thing that he wanted of me, that could have serious repercussions in my vanilla life. He told me that that was something he wanted oh, around the 3rd date. I told him that it wasn't a hard limit, but that I had these specific concerns about it, and I wasn't sure when I would be able to participate, that I'd need him to be patient with me in that area (we had a few others as well, but they were mostly involving play only, rather than potentially being so wide-ranging in their possibility for causing trouble). In the first couple of weeks that I was his slave, he *did* bring it up, and asked me to start thinking about how to do it in a way that felt safe to me, that addressed my concerns. If he had decided that I just needed a firm hand, and that now that I was his slave, I had to prove that I trusted him by doing it right away, I would have freaked out. I probably would have started out pretty reasonably, but if he'd decided to just push harder and harder, to force me to comply, I eventually would have very willfully disobeyed, as a direct response to my perception that he was being unreasonable. I'd try to give *HIM* the benefit of the doubt, and it might or might not have damaged my trust in him in general, but I'd have hoped that it was a miscommunication due to the newness of the relationship. If he had made it a "do it or I'll dump you" issue, we would have broken up, but only if *HE* had forced it to that point. Now, I'm doing it, even though I'm still a little nervous and worried about it, but he's calmed my fears and addressed my concerns.

KOM, I'm very happy that your relationship with both of your girls is doing so well, and I'm not intending to criticise it at all. I'm just saying that I personally wouldn't be happy or fulfilled or compatible with someone who had a "disobey willfully once and I'll dump you" clause. I don't think my Master was saying that there is nobody who is capable of obeying for 20 years, but that making that promise ahead of time is something that he thinks people should be very leery of. In the past, it was very common for someone to get a job right out of high school or college and work there until they retired. Right now, if a college student said they were going to do so, they *might* be able to manage it, but most people would consider it to be an unrealistic goal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Willfully Disobedience is not only never appropriate it also means an end to the M/s dynamic at a minimum and most likely any type of relationship.

My Master, ishy's Master, and Elysium's Master have all determined that it is not automatically an end to our respective M/s dynamics or to our respective relationships. I can understand your saying that it would be enough to end your relationship with your girls, but saying that it applies to all M/s relationships isn't accurate, since we have at least 3 counterexamples.

I do understand the distinction between willful disobedience versus unintentionally disobeying, or bringing up fears and concerns. If he tickled me or hurt me in a way that I reacted to by flailing around, and accidentally hurt him, he'd respond to it very differently than if I hauled off and punched him. In our relationship, physical violence/agression from me isn't allowed, although we do wrestle and playfight and indulge in mild physical resistance play. He's not at all masochistic, so there are set boundaries on what I'm allowed to do, and how much force I'm allowed to use. Some Masters, Dominants, and switches are fine with all-out physical resistance, yelling names, and so forth. I dated a switch for a while who is also into kung fu, so we did sparring on a regular basis, and he actively encouraged me to hit him full-power during our sparring and some of our scenes. I didn't fight dirty or in anger, and there were still boundaries - no breaking bones or hitting head or crotch or joints like knees, for example. It's not that no M/s relationship can involve deliberate physical force or violence from the slave because it will automatically break the dynamic, but unconsentual violence is unacceptable in any relationship.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/27/2010 12:54:59 PM >

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: One strike and out - 3/28/2010 8:02:35 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
kyra, I also would view that as forgetfulness, rather than disobedience. All this talk of cell phones, eggs, and toilet paper just seems so absurd - do you truly think someone would rebel dramatically over something that minor?



LOL We have three teenage girls in the house. I know from first hand experience that someone would rebel dramatically over something that minor. And before the argument of well they are just teenagers are given... our girls are often more emotionally mature than some adults we meet.

Sometimes, those situations are the straw that breaks the camels back but not necessarily the motivating force behind the rebellion. It may seem like something minor to a person on the outside, but for the person experiencing it is the last straw.

Knight's Kyra


_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: One strike and out - 3/28/2010 8:50:11 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Willfully Disobedience is not only never appropriate it also means an end to the M/s dynamic at a minimum and most likely any type of relationship.

My Master, ishy's Master, and Elysium's Master have all determined that it is not automatically an end to our respective M/s dynamics or to our respective relationships. I can understand your saying that it would be enough to end your relationship with your girls, but saying that it applies to all M/s relationships isn't accurate, since we have at least 3 counterexamples.




I am amused that you often quote and make statements that are often out of context or send a negative tone towards those that do it differently.

first... I never implied or stated that this should and does apply to all dynamics. If one actually kept the context of what you quoted.. one would see I was referring to the point of view of those that live with a "one strike and out view point" and not all M/s dynamics.

Second... everyone does have a one strike and out view point in their relationship... just exactly what that strike is will be different for different relationships and some might not even know what they are... for some.. it's Wilful Disobedience.. others it's infidelity and then to quote you "he did say that if I lie to him, that is completely unacceptable and a deal-breaker. There are probably other things that he could do, or I could do, that would be so horrible that we would need to break up without even discussing it. Disobedience isn't on that list though. " which is in response to Latigresse's question of "So what you are telling me that there is NOTHING either one of you could possibly do that would end your relationship? Nothing at all? "

I see nothing wrong with people having a defined lines of what are deal-breakers or relationship enders in their dynamic. In fact, I would say that is rather healthy for the relationship and the more the individuals understand what they are.. the better. I don't care what they are either.... if it works for them then that is fantastic! I know what works for my relationship and for me. I sure don't want anyone doing what I do just because it works for me!

With in the context of my relationships, I have found the one strike and your out with willful disobedience to enhance our dynamic because of the type and personality of us three. This doesn't make us better or more as an M/s dynamic. It doesn't mean we have more trust than others or confidence. It just means we doing something that is best for us and not better than others.

so... your counter examples.... of course their is examples that others doing it differently. But, I haven't been the one maing statements of why I live my life this way and at the same time ditching those that do it differently to make myself feel better of what I do. I tried to be polite and not be so obvious with regards to the tendency you demonstrate on backhand (unintentional as they are) insults but you didn'get it... so here the hammer. I am done with you!



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: One strike and out - 3/29/2010 7:44:02 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		ishy, I have a very similar understanding of "disobedience" - I couldn't understand how someone could unintentionally disobey!

kyra, I suppose someone could rebel over something minor, but I'd be incredibly embarrassed if I told someone that I broke up with someone (of any D/s orientation or BDSM orientation) over eggs, toilet paper, or something like that! In a situation like you described, my Master probably would have said something along the lines of, "I need to get some sleep and think things over before I'll be able to discuss it with you, and you're tired enough that it's affecting you, too. Come to bed now." If I'd tried to keep talking, he would have put his hand over my mouth to shush me (he has done that occasionally when I was a little too excited and talkative in general). If I'd *really* persisted, he might have asked me if I needed a gag until I could control myself, or might have decided that we really did need to talk a bit more in spite of the lack of sleep, or handled it in some other way, but he wouldn't turn it into a "obey or breakup" situation.

KoM, I apologise for misunderstanding - I thought you were saying that *any* M/s dynamic would be broken by willful disobedience, rather than that you were speaking of your own relationships. Of course, anything that you feel will disturb that balance is something you need to handle in whatever way you judge is best. I should have asked for clarification instead of jumping to that conclusion.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: One strike and out - 3/29/2010 3:42:36 PM   
blueeyedbbwsub


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		OMG willfull disobedience. I WON'T I WON'T I WON'T....NEENER NEENER NEENER

OK, got that out of the way. In all seriousness, there is no way I would agree to be with anyone who just said, do as you're told. My choice to refuse, my choice to say no, his choice to say since you won't go with that then you're out. Not that I was ever in to begin with.

Everything we choose to do in life is based on choices we choose to make, and real life to live. One strike you're out is perfectly understandable once one has chosen to live by the rules and has agreed to them. It does not assume that there won't be issues or that reality won't intrude. Life is not perfect, no one is perfect, what a boring world it would be. What to some is "i won't" is to others "i can't", is to a 3rd set who says "I can't, please help me work this out" Can't, won't, help me, are all different premises. We must all, as adults negotiate the terms of any relationship we enter. Be it kinky, 'nilla, whatever floats your boat. Not to do so is irresponsible for both parties. No serious Dom or sub would ever make a blanket statement before knowing what this will entail. There are too many, or few on here depending on the mass of asstard comments that pass as messages, who think they have no limit. Once reality sets in then they come crying that they've "been hurt", "have been taken advantage of", "didn't know what they were getting into" etc. It applies to D/M as well as sub/slave.

I never leave out the part that I suffer from depression and multiple disorders. I certainly can't leave out the part that I'm overweight. Both are very much a part of my life. Should someone choose me and then not respect that I do have issues with certain things when it comes to my mental health, then that would be a deal-breaker. Especially if not given the chance to explain myself. It's all in perception and a previous agreement.

I'm overweight. I can lose the weight, I want help making that a realistic goal, I'm trying to do it on my own. I don't care that someone who doesn't know me thinks I'm fat. Yup, I am. Do I care that you think that? Nope, I don't. Should someone try to put me on a starvation diet and not let me have more than 2 carrot sticks, a melba toast and 1/2 cup of water a day? Not going to work, assuming of course I was told all was ok to begin with. Should someone who is willing to accept me, faults and all, be willing to work things out, help me in my goals and make them realistic, then by all means, let's work it on it.

I suffer from depression. I tell whoever it is, be it friends, family, newcomers in my life that i suffer from this. Try to take me off my meds because you don't believe in them? Then get the HELL outta my life. I know that I will be medicated for the rest of my life, there's brain chemistry involved. Try to help me feel better about myself, don't put me down, really take the time to find out why I have some problems? Then we can work it out. In this case it's a case of no, I won't because this is how it will affect me... Or no I can't because this is what will happen. I won't be put down because I can't take being used or abused. But it was my choice to "won't". Not the best terminology, but yanno what I mean....I hope.

Absolutes are absolutely not realistic. There are always ways to work things out if they don't break the one-strike you're out. Those with no experience don't know any better. Those with experience know better.

I ramble, I go on, but once it's all said and done, I stick by it.

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: One strike and out - 3/29/2010 8:36:17 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		blue, I agree that when I was looking, I really wanted someone who I felt had expectations that I was certain that I could comply with all or nearly all of the time. There are lots of things that make hot fantasy material, but wouldn't work for me on a day-to-day basis.

lovingpet, I was just thinking about this some more, and you're probably right, that the expectations change so much from one individual person to the next, with the same phrasing, that it's best to keep an open mind and ask them non-defensively what they mean by it, how they envision it working out on a day-to-day basis, and so forth. A big part of it is just that certain words and phrases have a very negative emotional connotation/association for me, so use of them tended to make me automatically rule the person out. My being upset by those phrases doesn't mean that other people shouldn't use them - everyone is different, and another person could feel it's a perfect match. The use of "secondary" in poly relationships similarly pushes my buttons in negative ways, but I know lots of poly folks, both vanilla and kinky, who are thrilled with their secondary relationships. I recognise that it is *my* issue, not a negative thing in general, but it can be difficult to explain why I object to it without coming across as insulting. *sighs*

(in reply to blueeyedbbwsub)
Profile   Post #: 120
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