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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 1:38:02 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Yes, my obedience is based on trust, but why should that mean that that one time I doubt him, even for a moment, that would mean the end of our relationship?
And that's what the "one strike you're out" rule basically implies: "doubt me once and you're out the door".

Personally, I gain trust in people when those people show me, by actions, in time of doubt, that I can still trust in them... especially in times of doubt.
This is exactly what Master did every time I’ve disobeyed him so far.
I doubted him for one reason or another, and his response was to show me I could still trust me, which caused me to revert back to my obedient self.



The part in bold is where I think a lot of misunderstanding is coming from.  No, that is not what one strike and you are out means.  I have doubted my partner on many occasions and acted in a way less than submissive and obedient.  I was learning to trust him at that time.  That is a neverending process, but it is one to be expected and can be handled.  There is a big difference between doubt and the subsequent actions based on it and willful, flagarant disobedience on the order of defying and defiling the very foundation of the relationship.  Even if a willful decision is done based on doubt, it's not the same.  The desire and effort is still there.  There is just more learning to do and growing as a couple.  In the other, there is no desire, effort, or reason other than ripping self right back out of his hands.

You even stated the process yourself (the part in italics) of how trust is earned over time.  No one is disagreeing that that process must occur and continue to occur on an ongoing basis.  My trust in my partner is pretty implicit at this point, but I can still have a momentary anxiety that I cannot resolve on my own and respond to his requirements accordingly.  The difference is in whether I let him help me or take it back from him.  It's like a child that has a broken toy and either lets it sit on her daddy's workbench and let him do with it what needs done even if it looks like he's making it worse for a time despite her anxiety over the time, further breaking, etc or decides her daddy's never going to fix, won't fix it right, or doesn't care about fixing it and yanks it back off and heads to the kitchen with super glue and a some string.  One still has faith in her daddy and the other doesn't.  If this were submissives, one would still be trying within the dynamic and the other wouldn't.  Imperfect trust isn't the issue.  It is an unwilling heart.

I get where the anxiety and inability to trust would come from if I thought the slightest little thing would lead to my abandonment.  As a matter of fact, I think disobedience tends to increase at some point in the relationship BECAUSE the submissive finally understands they are not going to be abandoned for any and every little thing that goes wrong.  At some point, that comes back to center.  The disobedience is actually a sigh of relief at finally feeling at home, safe and protected within the arms of the dominant.  It is also shown to be unacceptable, even with the best of reasons behind it, and it stops. 

I know I can be human within my relationship, but I also know I am accountable and that there is a limit somewhere out there where mistakes become intentional and intentional becomes defiance.  That is the place where we have to seriously consider what we are doing and why we are together because we are about to enter something other than the relationship we have if we continue down that path.  We don't know what will be different.  Perhaps our paths will lead separate ways.  Perhaps the other side is infidelity.  Perhaps the other side is just some kind of egalitarian vanilla.  There's not always something harmful about the path on the other side, but we have to acknowledge that it is different and that the difference may be that we are no longer together or no longer master and slave.  Different isn't always bad, but it has to be acknowledge for what it is...not the same as what existed before.

lovingpet     



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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 3:09:59 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		Hi ally,

You're analysis of the situation is right.
My telling him "I won't" was actually an indication of my fear, trying to express to him "I can't, because I'm scared".

At no point in time do I think that either of us felt that my disobedience was anything like having a childish fit, of me stumping my foot and saying something like "I won't because you are a big meany and I don't REALLY have to do what you say".

And that's exactly my issue with the whole "one strike you're out" thing; I think it leaves too little room for the context of the situation. Not every act of disobedience, even if it's willful, implies a childish tantrum fit.

Sometimes, there are well-founded reason why we react to a situation the way we do, and that's all I was doing at the moment when I refused to obey. I reacted the ONLY way I could react at that time: by digging in my heels, becoming stubborn as a mule, and very distinctly refusing to obey him.

Master being the type of man that he is, I would expect him to stick to his word at all cost, which in that situation would have meant that he would be forced to release me because he gave his word that he would do so, if had he told me prior to that that our relationship was over should I ever disobey him.
He wouldn't have had the opportunity to react the way he did, calming my fears and help me past that moment.

Now like lovingpet and others have said, there appropriate and inappropriate ways to address such fears, and I agree with that too.
There have been many times that I have wanted to disobey, but didn't, and instead have brought the issue to his attention in a more appropriate, slavelike way, and that the issue was dealt with just as well. In those cases there wasn’t ever a need for me to disobey, even though my first impulse might have been to do so. I acknowledge that I am an adult, and being a slave doesn’t give me a free pass to always just act on my impulses, quite the opposite actually.

In hindsight, the time I described at which I disobeyed, it was possible to have dealt with the issue in such an appropriate manner as well. I could have gone to him straight away and told him about my fears, and it would probably have been fixed just the same.
It's just that, because of the particular nature of my fears this time, I wasn't able to go to him in the appropriate manner; because I feared that the appropriate manner would only make things worse.
Thus, my perception left me feeling that the only choice I had was reacting the way I felt: by disobeying.

His allowance for things that are grey, instead of black and white, is what saved the situation. I have no doubt, however, that me acting bratty and childish on a consistent basis would mean the end of our relationship. It was just that in this instance, I wasn't behaving in an immature matter, even though I absolutely disregarded several direct orders he gave me.
The fact that he doesn’t prescribe to black and white rules leaves him the ability to assess every situation based on its own context, and his willingness to do that gives me a tremendous amount of faith in him. Faith I couldn’t have in a man who –from my perspective- limits his own authority in a situation by setting up a very rigid system of rules that he now also has to follow simple because he set them up.

I wish you well,

ishy
 


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 3:40:15 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

The fact that he doesn’t prescribe to black and white rules leaves him the ability to assess every situation based on its own context, and his willingness to do that gives me a tremendous amount of faith in him. Faith I couldn’t have in a man who –from my perspective- limits his own authority in a situation by setting up a very rigid system of rules that he now also has to follow simple because he set them up.



I have told people consistently that I am only as good as my word and that IF I draw a line in the sand, then I WILL back it up because it is that important to me.  I don't feel backed into a corner when that time arises and I have to put my money where my mouth is.  I am empowered in that situation because I am holding my own ground and taking the best possible care of myself and others whom I love by following through.  If my partner sets a standard, I should hope he expects it to be followed and that there will be consequences if it is not.  Otherwise, why bother? 

If those consequences don't come and there isn't a good reason for it (such as the standard being fundamentally flawed somehow or inappropriate in a given situation), then I feel adrift.  That doesn't mean he simply has to follow through in order to appease me or to not look like an idiot.  In fact, if that is the only reason for keeping his word, then it is liable to make a bad situation worse.  I don't like rules just for the sake of rules.  I don't like people in a position of leadership over me who are incompetent and so insecure in their own authority as to have to show off in such a brutish fashion.  That would sour me too.

I think those who put in place certain things that cannot be transgressed are doing so because they know themselves well enough to know that it really is that important to them.  They have to proceed in those areas with caution and wisdom so as to not throw the baby out with the bath water.  I really have to trust my partner to have that wisdom and to always be willing to understand before making such a massive decision.  It still comes down to trust, just perhaps from a different angle.

lovingpet 

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 5:31:52 PM   
whiteslavebitch


Posts: 479
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		I'm so thankful that it's not "One strike and you're out". I'm nowhere near perfect, and I do make mistakes. I would live in constant fear of failure if that were the case.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:09:50 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Wow.  And I got the distinct impression that he repeatedly said that he was there to help her and work with her. 

Looks like we got very different impressions from this statement:
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
if she EVER digs her heels in that way, it's over.




While I feel the need to set clear boundaries and limits about what I consider to be acceptable and unacceptable in my relationships, I avoid sentences that are loaded with threats like if you ever when setting up terms for any relationship. Every situation is unique and predetermined mindsets tend to limit us in our ability to treat every situation on it's own terms.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/25/2010 7:10:01 PM >

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:30:06 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		LA, I agree - dealing with situations on a case-by-case basis and being a little flexible goes a long way!

LaT, he did say that if I lie to him, that is completely unacceptable and a deal-breaker. There are probably other things that he could do, or I could do, that would be so horrible that we would need to break up without even discussing it. Disobedience isn't on that list though. I just talked to him a few minutes ago, and confirmed with him that if I were defiant or willfully disobedient, his response would be to find out what's going on in my head, why I reacted that way. He agrees with me that fear could easily be expressed that way, and that if I were disrespectful in how I handled it, I would be punished for *that*, but not necessarily for the disobedience. Instead, he'd figure out with me, once I'd calmed down, what my objections were, try to figure out how to get what he wanted with maybe a smaller step first, or some adjustment to make it an easier task, evaluate how important it was to him if it were that huge of a problem for me, and so forth. If I were repeatedly being disobedient, if I didn't want to obey and please him anymore, then a M/s relationship would be pointless. He would try to figure out what's going on with me and resolve it first, but if it were going on for an extended period, that would not be acceptable and we might indeed need to break up.

KOM, I never made an oath of obedience. Like ishy, my Master doesn't expect that of me, and doesn't feel it is realistic to ask of anyone. He wants me to try my best and let him know if I have a problem, in a respectful, reasonable way. He doesn't want me to go through the motions out of fear that he'll leave me.

ishy, I agree with you that I wouldn't be compatible with someone who had that mindset, who made that demand - that's where this thread came from in the first place. I don't want to criticise other people for how they conduct their relationships, but I try very hard not to make promises unless I'm certain I can keep them.

lovingpet, I try to avoid ultimatums and lines in the sand unless they are truly that horrible, and for those, most pretty much go without saying. My Master doesn't need to tell me not to steal, or destroy his property, or cheat on him, or kill his pets, or out him to his parents, or something along those lines - I'd have to be a completely rotten human being to do any of those things!

Whiplash, I agree that kind of dynamic, figure out what to do, listen to all of the circumstances before making up your mind, is a great approach to life and relationships in general.

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RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:32:19 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for your reply. Your examples were what I was looking for. We ALL have some sort of 'one strike and out'.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:35:02 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, however, in the quote RavenMuse was referring to at the beginning of the thread, I was specifically addressing the "disobey once and you're out" form. Of course, there are some things that don't deserve a second chance.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:41:49 PM   
DWCskitten


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/2/2010
Status: offline 		Master Sir has a definite dislike of "i can't" AND also with my ever saying "i'll do my best" or "i will try" rather than just doing it with a "Yes, Master Sir." He says "i'll do my best" and "i will try" imply that i might fail and i'm not allowed to think like that.

~kitten~

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 7:57:09 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

LA, I agree - dealing with situations on a case-by-case basis and being a little flexible goes a long way!


As do I.

quote:

There are probably other things that he could do, or I could do, that would be so horrible that we would need to break up without even discussing it.


That is the case with everyone and that is exactly the point as I see it.  Some things just cost too much of the integrity of the relationship to allow it to still stand.

quote:

Disobedience isn't on that list though. I just talked to him a few minutes ago, and confirmed with him that if I were defiant or willfully disobedient, his response would be to find out what's going on in my head, why I reacted that way. He agrees with me that fear could easily be expressed that way, and that if I were disrespectful in how I handled it, I would be punished for *that*, but not necessarily for the disobedience. Instead, he'd figure out with me, once I'd calmed down, what my objections were, try to figure out how to get what he wanted with maybe a smaller step first, or some adjustment to make it an easier task, evaluate how important it was to him if it were that huge of a problem for me, and so forth.


RavenMuse and, as far as I recall, everyone else backing this "one strike" position have described this exact same process and leniency.  I don't understand how it is still being misconstrued. 

quote:

If I were repeatedly being disobedient, if I didn't want to obey and please him anymore, then a M/s relationship would be pointless. He would try to figure out what's going on with me and resolve it first, but if it were going on for an extended period, that would not be acceptable and we might indeed need to break up.


Again, that is the same process the "one strike" camp seems to be following and the reasoning for the ending of the relationship is the same too.  If the dynamic is no longer being honored by one, then there is no longer a dynamic at all.  It isn't that someone disobeyed, it is why and with what attitude, intent, and reason.  That just changes everything.

quote:

KOM, I never made an oath of obedience. Like ishy, my Master doesn't expect that of me, and doesn't feel it is realistic to ask of anyone. He wants me to try my best and let him know if I have a problem, in a respectful, reasonable way. He doesn't want me to go through the motions out of fear that he'll leave me.


I didn't either.  I just know that extreme and deliberate disobedience chips away at the foundation of a M/s relationship.  My partner expects me to conduct myself in just the same fashion as you do with your master.  My partner doesn't want me to obey out of fear either, but from a place of love, respect, devotion, and trust none of which exist if I am in a constant and flagrant state of disobedience.

quote:

ishy, I agree with you that I wouldn't be compatible with someone who had that mindset, who made that demand - that's where this thread came from in the first place. I don't want to criticise other people for how they conduct their relationships, but I try very hard not to make promises unless I'm certain I can keep them.


There's no demand from my partner.  He has given his word to lead me in a way that is good and right for me, him, and the relationship and I have given my word to uphold my part with my best obedience and trust.  It's not going to be perfect from either of us, but we are in this together and actively seeking to do our best rather than undermine each other and the dynamic as a whole.

quote:

lovingpet, I try to avoid ultimatums and lines in the sand unless they are truly that horrible, and for those, most pretty much go without saying. My Master doesn't need to tell me not to steal, or destroy his property, or cheat on him, or kill his pets, or out him to his parents, or something along those lines - I'd have to be a completely rotten human being to do any of those things!


Yes, they go without saying, but I say them anyway in the spirit of open and honest communication.  I don't have many lines in the sand, but the few I have must be respected by anyone who is going to be an intimate in my life.  With appropriate compatability and a simple desire for my well being, I don't have to worry about those lines being crossed by my partner.  I, however, also need to respect his and he has just as much a right to have them as I do. 

quote:

Whiplash, I agree that kind of dynamic, figure out what to do, listen to all of the circumstances before making up your mind, is a great approach to life and relationships in general.


Which is what nearly everyone on this thread has been in agreement on.  No one is making rash decisions in the heat of the moment or throwing away a significant relationship over improperly cooked eggs.  There is only an extremely narrow set of circumstances that fit the criteria of the type of strike being discussed and even some intentional...even willful disobedience...doesn't even begin to come close to that standard and risk the relationship.  I think those relationships that I have gotten a peek inside in this thread have all shown a great level of maturity, openess, communication, respect, and compassion for each other.  That stands on BOTH sides of the "one strike" debate.

lovingpet

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 3/25/2010 8:01:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 8:28:22 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

KOM, I never made an oath of obedience. Like ishy, my Master doesn't expect that of me, and doesn't feel it is realistic to ask of anyone. He wants me to try my best and let him know if I have a problem, in a respectful, reasonable way. He doesn't want me to go through the motions out of fear that he'll leave me.


I didn't either.  I just know that extreme and deliberate disobedience chips away at the foundation of a M/s relationship.  My partner expects me to conduct myself in just the same fashion as you do with your master.  My partner doesn't want me to obey out of fear either, but from a place of love, respect, devotion, and trust none of which exist if I am in a constant and flagrant state of disobedience.

quote:

ishy, I agree with you that I wouldn't be compatible with someone who had that mindset, who made that demand - that's where this thread came from in the first place. I don't want to criticise other people for how they conduct their relationships, but I try very hard not to make promises unless I'm certain I can keep them.


There's no demand from my partner.  He has given his word to lead me in a way that is good and right for me, him, and the relationship and I have given my word to uphold my part with my best obedience and trust.  It's not going to be perfect from either of us, but we are in this together and actively seeking to do our best rather than undermine each other and the dynamic as a whole.



Greetings lovingpet,

I'm sorry, but you're confusing me now, are you or are you not, bound by your word to obey him?

See in my situation, if I would tell Master that I am giving him my word that I will uphold my role in our relationship, he would either laugh, thinking that I'm joking, or beat me if he actually thought that I was serious.

So the baseline in our relationship is a totally different approach then yours (not saying that's a bad thing, just noting the difference).

It's not up to me to uphold anything at all in our relationships. The only thing that Master expects from me is that I am myself, and react to him and even that isn't really an obligation I have towards him. It's more that because I react naturally to him, and the way that I react to him that he happens to like me.

If I would try to uphold a role in our relationship, that would mean I would be self-defining how I feel my role in his life should be, which is something he would not accept from me. It is rather, he who chooses what role I have in his life and who inspires me to react in such a way that I fulfill that role.
I am, not allowed to try to make myself act a certain way towards him; he would not accept that from me.

If I would stop reacting naturally to him and instead would act like I feel I should as his slave, which would be a deal breaker in our relationship.
In a sense, if all my senses would scream to rebel against him, and I would instead force myself to obey him because I felt I owed it to him, he would discipline me for that if he would find out. He would discipline me for presuming that I have the right to dictate my own behavior.

While I don't think that he wouldn't first try to fix the situation by finding out why I stopped reacting to him, it still would mean the end of our relationship if I would permanently stopped to react naturally to him (obedience AND rebellion, as they naturally come to me)
Even if I would still make myself behave as his perfectly obedient slave out of sense of owing my obedience to him, he would not keep me under circumstances like that.

He doesn't wish to have a woman in his life that control herself into obeying him; instead, it is he who wants to be able to control the woman to do as he wishes her to do. If she controls herself in obeying, then he is not able to control her obedience.

I wish you well,

ishy
 


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 8:57:13 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think think that stating my intent upfront changes my ability to respond to him naturally.  I might have given my word that I would do my part to make the relationship work, but sometimes that means I have to take that moment or more to evaluate whether I can or will obey.  My part is to be functional within the relationship.  Disobedience is a sign something is off in the relationship.  It means it is time for the hard work of relationship building and maintinence.

My natural response to him IS obedience.  It is not perfect obedience.  I am human, but there has yet to be anything he has asked of me that, even if I hated it, I didn't know deep down was best for me, him, and our relationship.  I am probably not explaining well.  It is late and I need sleep.    I might give it a go again tomorrow.

lovingpet    

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: One strike and out - 3/25/2010 11:42:28 PM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: antinomy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Work with Me or get the fuck out..... if there is a problem, We face it together or not at all, I own an adult, not a child, she knows what is required of her, just as for this to work the relationship requires things of Me... I do My side of this, I expect her to do hers.



I'm late to this, but I do have a question. It's about the highlighted bit. Now, I know in a power exchange relationship, only one person is the 'boss'. So, if a girl knows the rule going into it, that's cool. She agreed and all- she does not work with you, she goes.

My question is, do you hold yourself to the same standards? If you don't do something on your side that causes her willfull disobedience, would you expect her to consider herself unowned then and there? Of her own accord? I think that's the sticking point for me. Not only is she human, you are, too. And, your behavior directly influences her own. So, you would not want- or feel entitled to- a second chance if you fucked up? Because, I hear tells, doms do that too on occassion...


If I may add my comments even though this question was directed at RavenMuse.  My Dominant has told me that if he ever has an instance of not fulfilling his side of our agreement that he would release me or I am to leave so yes if he screws up in a significant way (eg. forgetting my birthday would not be a reason for me to leave him however him ordering me to screw someone else when he knows that this is not something we have agreed to would be a reason) then he also has a one strike and you are out rule.  And I know that he would stick to this. 

If he were to willfully put me at risk of not-agreed to emotional, physical or financial harm I would be required to release myself.




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RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 6:51:41 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
He doesn't wish to have a woman in his life that control herself into obeying him; instead, it is he who wants to be able to control the woman to do as he wishes her to do. If she controls herself in obeying, then he is not able to control her obedience.



In a lot of ways it is a matter of perspective. For my Lord, if I am not able to control my behavior (i.e. control myself so that I can obey him) then he has no hope of having authority over my life. It may be a matter of having differing definitions of control.

The perspective in our house is that any person's behavior is ultimately under their own control. We may influence and have an impact on it, but it is their own internal choice (whether conscious or subconscious) that ultimately controls their behavior. For him, I am required to control my behavior, my emotions and my thoughts so that he may exercise his authority in my life. Without that control he cannot be assured that when he exercises his authority I will do as he wants me to. Since this is how he wants his house run, this is what he expects and gets from Alandra and I.

Different definitions and different perspectives...

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 8:24:46 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
RavenMuse and, as far as I recall, everyone else backing this "one strike" position have described this exact same process and leniency.  I don't understand how it is still being misconstrued. 

Again, that is the same process the "one strike" camp seems to be following and the reasoning for the ending of the relationship is the same too.  If the dynamic is no longer being honored by one, then there is no longer a dynamic at all.  It isn't that someone disobeyed, it is why and with what attitude, intent, and reason.  That just changes everything.

I'm confused. My Master said straight out that even if I were defiant or rebellious right then, he'd try to figure out why, and how to fix the problem. The "one strikers" have all said that willful disobedience and defiance would automatically mean that the trust and foundation of the relationship were broken, so they'd automatically dump the person. I don't see how those are the same at all! Maybe it's more a matter of how it's phrased. Also, you said that most of the one-strikers are basing their response on a long-term relationship, but several said that their Master or Dominant made it clear right from the start that one disobedience would be enough to end it. I know that if I started dating someone, and he didn't mention that he had that mindset until we were already in a relationship and I already felt strongly enough to submit to him, I would feel kind of betrayed, like it was a bait and switch, and would feel very disposable. When my Master and I were discussing it last night, he said that he felt that anyone who would break up that easily doesn't have a solid foundation or a deep emotional connection in the first place, so if someone made that kind of ultimatum (even if it were just in the context of friendship), he wouldn't want to continue spending time with them.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 10:12:39 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

In a lot of ways it is a matter of perspective. For my Lord, if I am not able to control my behavior (i.e. control myself so that I can obey him) then he has no hope of having authority over my life. It may be a matter of having differing definitions of control.



Greetings kyra,

Defiantly different perspectives.

For Master, if I can control whether or not I submit to him, it means that I'm making an active choice to behave as if I am under his control. Which would also means that I can choose to no longer behave as if I am under his control.

If that was the case, he would label me to be free instead of being his slave.

Even if I would act perfectly in all ways as a slave would towards him, he would still not consider me to be mastered if the only reason I did that was because I chose to do so because I felt I owed it to him because of my statue or something like that.

That doesn't mean that he doesn't expect me to be in control of my own behavior, for all practical purposes; but at the same time, he expects my natural reaction to him to be such, that in all instances, he is able to over-ride my own ability to control myself.

Thus, he can provoke me to submit, even if I don't want to, or provoke me to rebel even if I would consciously want to obey because I feel I owe that to him. (He has done the later in some situations to drive home the point that, he not me, is in control of my reactions and that he will not accept submission based on the premises that it is something that I can actively "give" to him.)

It's interesting to read other people's perspective, thanks for sharing yours.

I wish you well,

ishy
 


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 11:09:53 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I'm confused. My Master said straight out that even if I were defiant or rebellious right then, he'd try to figure out why, and how to fix the problem. The "one strikers" have all said that willful disobedience and defiance would automatically mean that the trust and foundation of the relationship were broken, so they'd automatically dump the person. I don't see how those are the same at all! Maybe it's more a matter of how it's phrased. Also, you said that most of the one-strikers are basing their response on a long-term relationship, but several said that their Master or Dominant made it clear right from the start that one disobedience would be enough to end it.

Greetings Andalusite,

This is exactly what I am confused about as well.

The "one strike" people seem to be saying that disobedience is always inappropriate and means the end of a relationship.
They point out that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to approach problems -which I agree with btw.

But at the same time, the appropriate way for a slave to approach their owner is often completely different then what we are "taught" to do when growing up.

So basically, it would seem to me that those who practice "one strike" not only expect total and unconditional trust from the first moment of submission, but they also expect the other person to already come with a learned set of skills of what the appropriate way for a slave is to behave when she is upset, even if the slave in question might have never before related to other people in the same mindset as she is kept now.
On top of that, they also expect the slave to be capable of being absolutely perfect in this aspect, and any slip-ups in trust or obedience aren't considered a learning curve, but a cause for determination.

I know for me, it is sometimes very hard to learn to accept that my life is now under the control of another, especially since I've always been a very free spirit, and very independent. Especially in times of anger or doubt, and especially in the beginning of our relationship, I had the tendency to revert back to my "normal" baseline of wanting to be in control myself because that is what I had been used to doing every day of my life prior to meeting Master.

Every time, he took those times as an opportunity to show me how much I could really trust him, by guiding me through the process and letting me feel that it was okay to not be in control... that it was in fact far better for me, to not be in control.
I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't last very long with anybody in a "one strike" dynamic, because I just couldn't bring myself to trust somebody who told me from the get go: "I expect you to be perfect in this area from the get go, and I will not accept any human flaws from you, even at times that are difficult for you."
I could never bring myself to trust a person like that.

Different tastes in different people I guess.

I wish you well,

ishy
 


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 12:52:34 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Let's see.  The "one strikers", as I have understood it and as it works for me, have said that willful disobedience is a dealbreaker.  They have also said that they will still examine the issue to determine why and if it is something that can be handled without damaging the relationship any further.  It is very hard for me to come up with an example simply because I have not had the urge or occasion to have experienced this.  If my willful disobedience comes due to circumstances beyond my control (put your foot over your head when I have mobility issues) or due to some issue with the domination process (hold this snake when I don't know if he has a good understanding of snakes since I don't because he never has told me).  I will say no to both and with good reason and it would be equally idiotic to hold that against me as it would be for not knowing how to cook eggs over easy or putting the toilet paper roll on the wrong way by accident.  It really isn't extremist and nonsensical.  It is that if, after looking at the issue, it comes down to flagrant disrespect, defiance, and a change of heart from me, then the relationship we once enjoyed is clearly gone and it is doubtful there is anywhere else for us to go together.

Really it is the same stuff that's dealbreakers for anyone else, but it is communicated fully upfront and not one of those unspoken expectations.  My partner made it very clear one time that he did not want me sexually involved with someone he had me experimenting in a new kind of play with.  He gave me a great deal of latitude otherwise, but absolutely under no circumstances was I to have sex with that person.  His reasons went right to the heart of some of the near and dear goals we are headed for together.  For me to ignore all of that and have sex with that guy anyway would have shown complete disrespect for my partner, that I didn't care about what we were building together, and that I had no investment in our hopes and dreams for the future.  Why wouldn't he release me?  Potentially, we could work through it provided the reason for the disobedience was something along the lines of being placed in bondage (which was allowed) and then having the situation exploited.  If it was a big thumbing my nose at my partner's expressed wishes, then how is he in control of me at that point and do I apparently appreciate or want his control over my life if I were to have such a cavalier attitude about disobeying him in such a serious manner?  My guess is there aren't too many relationships where such behavior would be acceptable.  It would be a dealbreaker.  It wouldn't have to happen multiple times.  One such offense would suffice to give evidence of how little I cared about my partner, our relationship, and the power dynamic.

Of course this was stated at the beginning of the relationship.  He knows that, if my desire to be his no longer exists, there is no power exchange and that which we thrive upon now is gone.  He knows my submission is based upon my respect and trust for him, among other things.  If it has gone, it is unlikely I even think he is a good person at that point.  If it were based upon something else, then perhaps we could enter into a new way of relating, but that is not the case.  I would not trust him and disrespect him by the end and that is not conducive to any healthy relationship.  He wants what is best for my well being and, at that point, HE would no longer be good for me, nor I for him.     

There is plenty we can work through together.  Even some moments that seem to fall within this "one strike" category still do not fit.  It is extreme action for extreme behavior here.  There is absolutely NO difference between these two concepts besides the fact that one states this outright and in the other it is implied.  I still have a partner who is patient with me when I am getting through something difficult because he has asked it of me.  He is there with guidance and support when the way is hard and the destination unclear.  I can fail, I just still have to give it my everything and trust him for the rest and for the plan to take a failure and work it through to a success.

lovingpet         



_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.


(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 9:42:12 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
The "one strike" people seem to be saying that disobedience is always inappropriate and means the end of a relationship.
They point out that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to approach problems -which I agree with btw.


As a slave in this type of relationship the first sentence is not accurate but the second one is. I am disobedient every now and then. Just last week I left my cell phone at home and that was disobeying a standing order. However, it was not a matter of me saying "fuck it, I am not bringing it with me even though I know I have to". It was a matter of me just simply forgetting to pick it up. He found it while I was at work and put it on his desk. I knew exactly where I had left it, so I knew that he noticed my error. Mistakes and forgetfulness happens that results in disobedience and yet he still keeps me.

quote:

So basically, it would seem to me that those who practice "one strike" not only expect total and unconditional trust from the first moment of submission, but they also expect the other person to already come with a learned set of skills of what the appropriate way for a slave is to behave when she is upset, even if the slave in question might have never before related to other people in the same mindset as she is kept now.
On top of that, they also expect the slave to be capable of being absolutely perfect in this aspect, and any slip-ups in trust or obedience aren't considered a learning curve, but a cause for determination.


Basically all of the above is a completely inaccurate view of my relationship. There was no expectation of unconditional trust in the beginning and five years later with me and 23 years later with Alandra he still does not expect unconditional trust.

He also did not expect me to already come with a specfic set of skills. He expects me to be open and willing to learn how to most effectively interact with him.

I am not expected to be perfect and rarely are there negative consequences for the mistakes that I do make. He knows that my motivation is in the right place and that because I am not perfect there will be slip-ups and I will do my best to not repeat them and we will move on.

What he will not tolerate in any shape or form is me essentially saying "I will not be your slave anymore".

If these assumptions are what is causing the confusion then maybe throw them out and find out what 'one strike and your out' means to those of us who live it.


Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: One strike and out - 3/26/2010 9:57:08 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

KOM, I never made an oath of obedience. Like ishy, my Master doesn't expect that of me, and doesn't feel it is realistic to ask of anyone.


it may not be realistic for him to expect and ask it of anyone but that doesnt make it unrealistic for those that are capable of doing it. After almost 20 years since Alandra made that Oath... I am thinking that we as a relationship we are demonstrating that fact!

quote:


He wants me to try my best and let him know if I have a problem, in a respectful, reasonable way. He doesn't want me to go through the motions out of fear that he'll leave me.


good for him and because I will not tolerate Willful Disobedience doesn't equate to me not wanting the same thing. In fact... I very much want the same thing.. and I am very much succeeding in achieving that very thing with my two girls.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 100
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