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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 3:49:51 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ok since you all apparently do not know here is how it works.  First you have the 14th amendment that says shut up and put up because you are a citizen of the united states which is a corporation.

Yes a corporation is a body politic and a body politic is a state and you got it you can be a citizen of a member of a state.


ok just to finish up on that thought....

The 14th only applies to consenters and new comers to the country, you know all that nasty old biblical stuff when one of Christs disciples asks but lord who pays the tax?  and Jesus answered; do the children of ceasar pay the tax?  No peter said, the stranger pays the tax.
Then so shall my children be free.

So the 14th does not automatically lock you (meaning a "Native American" into it.  You get "under" it by consent to contract with the beast and once you contract the 14th kicks in to protect you under privileges rather than unalienable rights and one of the parts you agreed to was to pay for the debt and not to question that debt.

Need I get the 14th to remind anyone?

So now you all tell me why you get the scraps they throw out to you and they are so dumb and they dont know what they are doing.

Well I have news for you all they had 200 years practice and most of you all havent even scratched the surface.  Everyone is more concerned about clinton getting his dick sucked and dubya "ACTING" like a clown while they rape you.

The strong always devour the weak and if you arent on top of "their" game you are dinner and need to be taken care of by the corporation as their "chattel".

Freemen and Sovereigns manage their own affairs.


Oh yeh and I forgot to say....

How many of you proudly checked that you are a united states citizen?

Anyone here want to tell me what state that is?

hehe :)




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/27/2010 4:04:12 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 3:51:43 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Hard to say  what's likely and unlikely these days. But it's certainly possible, given that a large - even very large - majority of the public has favored it consistently over the last year. I've got a strong hunch that part of the plan is to let the current private insurance system continue to come apart at the seams for the next few years, and when it's inescapably clear that the public option is the only solution, step in and implement it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

On this I think we agree. I believe that is what the plan has been all along. Not just in the health insurance area.

Edited to add: I am not sure that a plurality of Americans are in favor of the public option, but it may be the only option depending on how badly this thing spirals.

< Message edited by Thadius -- 3/27/2010 3:53:03 PM >

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 3:56:22 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No.

It would, however, make more sense.

Americans have a history of voting against their own claimed interests.

Remember, we ran up this debt, in the 60s, in the 80s and again in the 2000s, while ardently waving our flags.

Same with giving up rights to the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Theater.






we ahd the opportunity to come out of the bankruptcy in november 1999.  They needed to put us back into bankruptcy.

When you go to court you are actually going into a bankruptcy hearing where in they are the trustee and they wrongfully constru you to be the trustee rather then the beneficiary and that is how their wallets get thicker and you all see no way out.

They made enough off of your BC bond through "implied" contracts before you were 25 that you could live high on the hog the rest of your life.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 3:59:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius



and the correct answer that everyone is so skillfully avoiding is to get government out of healthcare and remove the industial commercial aspects of it rather than discuss the finer points of grater commercialization at more loss of freedoms or some chicanery between the large agencies.

Are we all really that blind that we do not see the writing on the wall here?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 4:02:34 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Not just a plurality, but a majority - and a very large one. As many as 70% or more of the people wanted the public option to at least be available. I give the voters credit for this much; on at least this one issue they saw through the bullshit and recognized both the problem and the solution. It gives me a little bit of hope for the country after all.

http://www.progressive.org/wx102009.html
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/06/public-opinion-strongly-favors-public-plan.php
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/10/public-option-still-popula/
http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2009/09/14/survey_73_of_doctors_favor_public_option


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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 4:28:02 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Not just a plurality, but a majority - and a very large one. As many as 70% or more of the people wanted the public option to at least be available. I give the voters credit for this much; on at least this one issue they saw through the bullshit and recognized both the problem and the solution. It gives me a little bit of hope for the country after all.

http://www.progressive.org/wx102009.html
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/06/public-opinion-strongly-favors-public-plan.php
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/10/public-option-still-popula/
http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2009/09/14/survey_73_of_doctors_favor_public_option


Every poll that I have seen that suggests support for the public option words it as something to compete with private insurance, we both know that is not the intent of the public option, the public option is the next step in putting private insurance out of business which leads to single payer.

I didn't look at the links you provide as I recognize a couple of them and have already discussed them in other posts. I suggest that part of the positives are based on the word compete while others are based on the use of similar to Medicare. I wish there was a poll that came out and just asked "Do you think the government should provide insurance for every American, paid for via tax revenues?"

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 5:11:46 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am curious about the mandated insurance part of the new law. In this state any driving a vehicle is required to have insurance. Since we all need medical services throughout our lives is mandated health insurance any different in theory?

Of course there uninsured drivers on the road and they do cause accidents, which means drivers who do carry insurance often pay for an "uninsured driver" clause.

I do not have enough information about mandatory insurance on homes for say, floods or earthquakes.

Are there other comparisons that can be made?





Suffice to say <-(correct english), the only one here who has a hole in one on the OP is me.

Its obvious that I am the only one here (so far) who is capable of discussing thi s matter at a root level while everyone else talks polls and other meaningless crap basically saying you support it but just need to iron out the details.

Now if you pollster people want to show me a fucking referendum the way it is supposed to be done and you show me it was done on paper not some bullshit electronic machine that a kid can hack in 10 minutes then my ears are open.

Until then you can eat your puppy chow and talk around me all day because you cannot debate the problem at its root level.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 6:33:40 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

the public option is the next step in putting private insurance out of business which leads to single payer.


Here's the interesting thing, though.

That can only happen if people prefer the public option to private insurance.

And if they do, it tells you something about both the quality of private insurance and people's trust in a government plan.

However, if, as so many on the right say, private insurance rocks and people don't trust government, nothing to worry about.

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 6:44:05 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I am finding it harder and harder to live with you people.

It is like we all now live in the same household.    One connected to my checkbook.

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 6:46:15 PM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 6:47:49 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

the public option is the next step in putting private insurance out of business which leads to single payer.


Here's the interesting thing, though.

That can only happen if people prefer the public option to private insurance.

And if they do, it tells you something about both the quality of private insurance and people's trust in a government plan.

However, if, as so many on the right say, private insurance rocks and people don't trust government, nothing to worry about.

Oh there is plenty to worry about, that is far from them though. I believe that the wonderful elected folks that are representing me in DC don't give a flying fuck about what the people think. I am going to start sounding like some of the other posters around these parts with chants to vote em all out in Nov.

Has the government given me any reason to trust that they can run something like a single payer system? The list of government run services that have a private sector comparison isn't all that convincing. Amtrak, USPS, Medicare... I am not even looking for anything close to perfection, just some sign that they can run something like this without needing to be saved each year with supplemental spending. Know what I mean?

Even if we look at the CBO numbers and accept their claim that this new law will generate $138 Billion over the next ten years, some simple math and logic tells us that is still a money losing proposal. Here is why, that ammounts to $14 Billion a year, and doesn't include the doctor fix for Medicare which comes in anywhere from $250 Billion to $400 Billion (depending on which estimate). That is using their numbers, which we all know are lowball estimates for costs, the CBO is notorious for that on spending.

Sorry for the derail.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 6:55:06 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Well, that's certainly a different frame of reference.

For all it does, and in a changing market, the USPS does a remarkable job. So does Medicare, if you compare pre-Medicare days to now. States can opt out, you know--yet they don't.

Current shortfalls are fixable, yes, even in Medicare, with some changes in funding. Frankly, if Medicare taxes were doubled, hardly anyone would notice the difference. As for the Post Office, consolidate some offices, raise stamps to something more realistic (come on---a few cents to send a letter across the country!), problem solved.

I wish we could have a safe way for the government to just take a vacation for a month and do nothing. Before the end of that month, people would be screaming for government to start back up.

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 7:00:26 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Tim,

That's the problem though. The clowns we have elected are either too afraid to fix these things or are so out of touch with common sense Americans that they don't realize there is a problem.

Congress won't even listen to the folks they appointed to run the Post Office more like a business. They don't want to lose all of the honorifics that certain post offices carry.

I just wish there was a way to keep Congress from doing anything for the 8 or so months out of the year that they are supposed to be working, save passing the budget with no new spending.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 7:05:02 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I just wish there was a way to keep Congress from doing anything for the 8 or so months out of the year that they are supposed to be working, save passing the budget with no new spending.


I hope you don't find it--that's how California penned itself into its fiscal corner.

Though I agree with you in spirit.

There are times when a household or a business has to spend money. That itself is fine, and preventing that would be a mistake. However, we have got to find the discipline to reign it in during good times.

That means VOTERS are going to have to support different realities. It means NOT liking tax cuts during boom times, preferring that money be spent on debt reduction or saved. It means LIKING new taxes during those times we can afford it, for the same reasons. It means UNDERSTANDING that some things have to be trimmed.

And it absolutely means cutting military spending way back--we overspend by multiples of any other nation.

Ditching the Homeland Security Fraud would be a good idea too.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/27/2010 7:10:16 PM >

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 7:38:45 PM   
Fellow


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
quote:

I've got a strong hunch that part of the plan is to let the current private insurance system continue to come apart at the seams for the next few years, and when it's inescapably clear that the public option is the only solution, step in and implement it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


I do not think this theory is correct. The current administration has shown in everything it is a continuation of Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bush general idea of "pro business" (bank bailouts, car companies bailouts, homeowners bailouts [actually helping banks], negotiating deals with drug companies and insurance providers and so on...).  One may ask: What's wrong with US-style "pro business" approach? The answer is obvious: the owners get fabulously rich at the expense of everybody else. Obama health care plan agenda was forced on him by election rivals (H. Clinton and McCain) and he had to deliver something to maintain credibility. Time will show  very soon he did not deliver much of value: everybody will pay more and the health care racket continues their great run. There is no free market for health insurance. Handful of corporations rule the field. Every health care or health care connected corporation loves mandated insurance. This will increase their monopoly status even further and allows to raise rates as soon as people will get some extra disposable income. I do not think the promised choice options for health care and insurance actually materialize. These are just typical government lies and intentional creations of confusion.  It will be interesting to see how things will work out. It is estimated about 50 million Americans can not actually afford any type of health care (mandated or not). As joblessness and number of poor is increasing, the question is, how long can US maintain the health care sector that costs about twice compared to the other developed countries.


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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 7:42:02 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'd also doubt it's a deliberate plan. For one thing, far too many variables.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see it play out in some fashion similar to this. We can't do unsustainable forever.

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 8:18:37 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Every poll that I have seen that suggests support for the public option words it as something to compete with private insurance, we both know that is not the intent of the public option, the public option is the next step in putting private insurance out of business which leads to single payer.
Then kindly explain to me why we have a public single payer health system AND a profitable private health insurance industry in Canada.


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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 9:16:55 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		We wont get me started.  lol

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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 9:29:33 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
quote:

I've got a strong hunch that part of the plan is to let the current private insurance system continue to come apart at the seams for the next few years, and when it's inescapably clear that the public option is the only solution, step in and implement it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


I do not think this theory is correct. The current administration has shown in everything it is a continuation of Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bush general idea of "pro business" (bank bailouts, car companies bailouts, homeowners bailouts [actually helping banks], negotiating deals with drug companies and insurance providers and so on...). 



I can't agree with that argument, although I do completely agree with where you're coming from.

Obama and the senior congressional leadership in both houses - as well as a sizable number of the legislators - made it clear from the beginning that they wanted some sort of public option in the final bill. It seems clear to me that they understand all to well that ultimately, that's the only option that can save this country from bankruptcy. They backed off and gave up on it far too soon in my opinion, but I think part of the reason they were willing to give it up was because they know full well that  there will be a point where it's inevitable. I believe they made the decision that getting this first bill passed now was too important to screw up, and that having this bill in place will make that next step that much easier when the time comes.

They know damned well that it has to happen, that it's just a matter of time before there's no choice, and they've made a calculated decision to let the snowball keep tumbling down the hill on its own a while longer rather than hold out for the public option now and risk blowing the whole reform bill. When that day of inevitability will arrive, nobody can say, but it's coming. Not next year, probably not the following year, but  at some point in the foreseeable future, it will be here, and they're content to wait for it and prepared to act when it does.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/27/2010 9:34:20 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Every poll that I have seen that suggests support for the public option words it as something to compete with private insurance, we both know that is not the intent of the public option, the public option is the next step in putting private insurance out of business which leads to single payer.


Not necessarily to put them out of business, but certainly to break the back of the current system in which the for-profit health insurance industry is the monopoly that dictates the structure of the entire health care system. And it's about fucking time.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
I didn't look at the links you provide as I recognize a couple of them and have already discussed them in other posts. I suggest that part of the positives are based on the word compete while others are based on the use of similar to Medicare. I wish there was a poll that came out and just asked "Do you think the government should provide insurance for every American, paid for via tax revenues?"


If the question is asked in a responsible manner, I'd love to see it too. I would imagine it won't be long before we start to see exactly that.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 40
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