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RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 2:15:25 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

That can only happen if people prefer the public option to private insurance.


Which they will do when the gummint susidizes 40% of the cost with my tax money


You seem hung up on how the money leaves your pocket.

A dollar is a dollar, whether it goes in premiums or taxes.


That's what I can't understand. The money is already being spent! The only two things that will be different in that regard are that it will be spent through the government instead of the employer, and that less of it will be spent.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 8:59:42 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

The 14th only applies to consenters and new comers to the country, you know all that nasty old biblical stuff when one of Christs disciples asks but lord who pays the tax?  and Jesus answered; do the children of ceasar pay the tax?  No peter said, the stranger pays the tax.
Then so shall my children be free.


Actually, Jesus said "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's". Meaning, "pay the damn tax already".

This tax evader nonsense about "freemen" and income tax being voluntary has been knocked down in court over and over again over the years. It's simply not true. The 14th amendment is a legal part of the Constitution applies to everyone that earns an income in the US.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 9:01:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Actually any U.S. citizen regardless of residence or where the income is earned.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/28/2010 9:02:01 PM >

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 9:08:49 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


1994 was the year the Republicans took over congress.

And there is something wrong with that graph, because it is well known that there never was a surplus, only a projected surplus that never materialized.

Where did you get it from?



Actually, it's a well-known fact that we had a surplus there at the end of Clinton's administration, at least partly because of their budgeting and economic policies. It even looked for a bit there like we might be on the road to paying back our nation debt. It went poof after '01, though it's debatable how much of that's because of market factors (like the tech bubble bursting) and how much was Bush cutting taxes and increasing spending.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 9:14:59 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually any U.S. citizen regardless of residence or where the income is earned.



That's true, too. I put that way because I was trying to include people who aren't US citizens but work here. Some people complain about immigrants using social services like they're a drain on the system, but they pay taxes too.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 11:38:52 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I was thinking along those lines myself, thorny.


Who’s at Risk
Blunt vs. Penetrating Trauma

Initial data collected from LEMSAs reporting blunt vs.
penetrating trauma data indicates that there are two high
risk groups

1. Age group 1: 15—24 years of age
2. Age group 2: 45—65 years of age

In the first set of data for blunt trauma the total number of specified age was 13048. Blunt trauma in age group 1 was 26% and age group 2 was 23%.

Data collected for penetrating trauma reveals that age group 15—24 again
received the highest percentage at 38% of the total 1167 reported."

http://www.emsa.ca.gov/systems/CEMSIS/files/TraumaDataReport1.pdf


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I've often heard of, and from, young folks that insist they're healthy, so why should they get insurance?

That's the exact age group that is most prone to trauma, and you can rack up some serious bucks that way.



(format edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 3/28/2010 11:39:27 PM >

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/28/2010 11:54:57 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

The 14th only applies to consenters and new comers to the country, you know all that nasty old biblical stuff when one of Christs disciples asks but lord who pays the tax?  and Jesus answered; do the children of ceasar pay the tax?  No peter said, the stranger pays the tax.
Then so shall my children be free.


Actually, Jesus said "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's". Meaning, "pay the damn tax already".

This tax evader nonsense about "freemen" and income tax being voluntary has been knocked down in court over and over again over the years. It's simply not true. The 14th amendment is a legal part of the Constitution applies to everyone that earns an income in the US.


ok smartie panties!  ;)


Mathew 17:24-27
When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter and said,
"Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax. He said, "Yes."
And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying,
"What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons
or from strangers?"

When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.
However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up
and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 12:02:49 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually any U.S. citizen regardless of residence or where the income is earned.





agreed man, you got that one bang on.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 12:17:49 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

People play both sides of this fence.

First argument will be that an automobile is a choice, so technically, it's only mandated if you choose to own one.

The trouble is that everyone has health, and will conceivably need health insurance. People will argue it should be choice, but just as with uninsured drivers, that choice impacts others, from unpaid emergency care to disease control.


Everybody travels by road, whether at the wheel or via public transportation... yet we don't mandate all residents have some sort of insurance for being alive.

Again, where does the limits of what Congress can mandate end, if this is found to be constitutional?


Case in point.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 12:35:59 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I had to jump because this thread got big.

Car insurance is for people with "license" and I can't get it. If I hit your car I could lose my house. I call that personal rsponsibility. I haven't had a decent car wreck since 1989 and couldn't get insured since 1995, even though I paid that off.

I have insurance on my house, and it is paid off so it is not mandated. However this is bigger than me and if it were to burn down I would be in deep shit. But I pay the premiums for that reason, and it is by choice.

I figure the way this healthcare thing is going to work is that on the 1040 there will be a box in which you must put you policy number, if not "See table ten" or something to see how much you owe. Go for it, but I am never going to pay another dime in income taxes in my life and they know right where I am. I "owe" thousands of dollars in fines and have more warrants thant most people have changes of underwear, and they know right where I am.

I loaned out my car to someone who, without a license did something stupid and got jammed up. The cop was the famous Simone and he said he would love to put me in jail. Guess what, it ain't happened yet. And I mean THAT Simone, the one who was on Top Cops. I think I drove right by him the other day, hey, enjoy your donut MF.

The fact is they can't mandate any of this shit, and sooner or later the whole plan will fal apart, just like you go to jail for ten years and pay a ten grand fine if you don't register your microwave oven with the federal government. Yeah right. They gave up on that real quick because absolutely noone complied.

I have been doing whatever the hell I want when I want since I was about 12, and I am not going to stop until I land in a jail or a grave. And I'll make them throw me out of jail, and I am not kidding about that. I have ways. Mail me for details, it works every time. I haven't done it but I know enough people who have. Note that this does not make whatever fines and all that go away, but it is so damn easy to get out of jail it's almost funny.

Better learn how to think on your feet folks, otherwise they'll walk all over oyu.

T

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:40:48 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I don't know why this myth about there being no surplus continues but it is easy to verify on government sites.  I've posted it so many times I'm not going to look it up again, but here is a recap:



And yet, if you follow the Dept of the Treasury year by year, the national debt increased every year during the Clinton years.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:43:59 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
And yet, if you follow the Dept of the Treasury year by year, the national debt increased every year during the Clinton years.


Nope.





And more historically:



Since Reagan, the madness started, subsided under Clinton, resumed under Bush.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/29/2010 3:47:49 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:46:24 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		That's due to clever accounting practices done.  You can follow the debt day by day on the Dept of the Treasury's website.

The results collated are -








Fiscal
Year
Year
Ending
National Debt
Deficit

FY1993 
09/30/1993 
$4.411488 trillion


FY1994 
09/30/1994 
$4.692749 trillion 
$281.26 billion

FY1995 
09/29/1995 
$4.973982 trillion 
$281.23 billion

FY1996 
09/30/1996 
$5.224810 trillion 
$250.83 billion

FY1997 
09/30/1997 
$5.413146 trillion 
$188.34 billion

FY1998 
09/30/1998 
$5.526193 trillion 
$113.05 billion

FY1999 
09/30/1999 
$5.656270 trillion 
$130.08 billion

FY2000 
09/29/2000 
$5.674178 trillion 
$17.91 billion

FY2001 
09/28/2001 
$5.807463 trillion 
$133.29 billion

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 3/29/2010 3:47:12 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:48:03 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Grr the site doesn't seem to like the chart formatting.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:49:34 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I don't know why this myth about there being no surplus continues but it is easy to verify on government sites.  I've posted it so many times I'm not going to look it up again, but here is a recap:



And yet, if you follow the Dept of the Treasury year by year, the national debt increased every year during the Clinton years.



But the debt is not the same as the deficit. The debt is how much we owe, the deficit or the surplus is the difference between how much the government takes in as revenues and how much it pays out as expenditures or interest payments. The relationship is important in  the sense that when you're running a surplus (as Clinton was doing), you can pay down the debt faster because you're taking in more than you're spending, and when you run a deficit you generally fall further into debt because you're spending more than you're making. But they're not the same thing.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:49:47 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

That's due to clever accounting practices done.


Clever? It's damn standard.

If you borrow $10,000 and you earn $20,000, that's idiotic. If you borrow $10,000 and you earn $120,000, no big deal.

But regardless, even the "clever accounting" can't help Reagan and Bush---the numbers suck.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/29/2010 3:50:46 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:52:06 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		If in a given year you earn $30,000 and a friend loans you $5,000, and you spend $32,000, is that a surplus?

Nope. 

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:52:48 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:54:22 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

But the debt is not the same as the deficit.


I know this.  Which is why I said the debt increased every year during the Clinton administration.

The deficit was decreasing nicely, and if Clinton had a few more years it probably would have vanished altogether, at which point the debt would have stopped increasing.

But it didn't happen.  Every year during his administration, the National Debt increased.   

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Mandated insurance, vehicle, home, etc - 3/29/2010 3:55:24 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

If in a given year you earn $30,000 and a friend loans you $5,000, and you spend $32,000, is that a surplus?

Nope. 


In a given year, if you just make up your own unsupported conclusions, is that accurate? Nope.






< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/29/2010 3:57:29 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 120
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