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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 3:23:39 AM

Aileen1968

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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13

I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

The only control I have is to end the relationship. I would do that by connecting intimately with another man.
He can end the relationship by connecting intimately with another woman.
I have no control over a "session". It starts, flows and ends when and how he wants it to.
I don't have a safeword. I don't want a safeword.
The day he doesn't have control of the dynamics of our relationship is the day that our relationship is over.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 3/30/2010 3:27:26 AM >

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Post #: 61

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 4:08:31 AM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13

I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

The only control I have is to end the relationship. I would do that by connecting intimately with another man.
He can end the relationship by connecting intimately with another woman.
I have no control over a "session". It starts, flows and ends when and how he wants it to.
I don't have a safeword. I don't want a safeword.
The day he doesn't have control of the dynamics of our relationship is the day that our relationship is over.

Hear hear.

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(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 62

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 4:44:08 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Smutmonger said: No matter how big or bad a master/mistress thinks they are -- the only power they really have is what the sub gives to them.
and with those words I couldn't agree more!

Personally, I find this rather to be one of those statements that is not true for Carol and I. It seems so intuitively obvious on the face of it. As I've dug deeper into what goes on between Carol and I, however, I've become less and less convinced that it's true. My thoughts on that have nothing to do with what a big bad dom I am since I don't ascribe much value to that. They have to do with a sincere effort to understand the woman I love and have committed my life to. I have no idea what is true or not for other people. For us, however, I'm more and more finding the idea that Carol has a lot of "choice" to be an illusion I cannot afford to maintain if I am to love her and care for her properly.

I understand what your saying leadership and your coming from a place that goes weigh beyond what many people have ever seen. I come from a similar place. A place of love and understanding, communication and a joint desire to flow together.
I said in another thread that its a home made of stone and not of wood. In such a place there is, like you said, commitment to a life together. Only with that degree of a relationship can we really start to comprehend what 'control' and 'choice' really means. Only when we are truly settled can we take and give without it having to come under a heading of dominance and submission. I don't even believe its control anymore when it reaches this stage. It is mutual understanding.

On the other hand I seem to see a lot of Masters, Dommes, subs and slaves on here that have relationships purely based on dominance and submission. words such as, 'If my dominant did that to me I would walk'. Walk is a much bigger threat than talk. Walk means she is in control, talk means she is willing to sort things out. When you read a submissive profile its like reading the terms of employment. I read too many fem sub profiles that clearly state between the lines that they are the ones that will be in charge. There is often an aggression there to get things right or don't bother.
In this sort of relationship I believe the submissive is very much in control. Perhaps she won't be as time passes but whilst it is only a BDSM type of relationship, then she pulls the strings. That is until he loses interest.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 3/30/2010 4:46:24 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 7:18:55 AM

Baldwin

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Not having much experience however, this is what I have learned or assimulated (love that word)

Generally speaking (this is not for hard sadism or maso):

A sub is in control. A good Dom will find out what the subs' likes and dislikes are, what are the limits and adjust accordingly.

A subs main concern is how much trust or when trust is given. This is a great leap of faith. (sub in control)

A Dom will use the likes and push the limits and even the dislikes to achieve the subs trust. (Dom in control until or if sub pulls back on trust.)

When trust is given and not "abused" or taken for granted then the relationship will grow and be strong. I do believe it is "more work", at least initially, for the Dom because he is trying to "satisfy" the wants of the sub as well as his own. Eventually, these are meshed together.

I agree with Smutmonger: "No matter how big or bad a "master/mistress" thinks they are-the only power they really have is what the sub gives them".

Yes either one can end a relationship but, how the relationship evolves is in the control of the sub......at least until total trust is given....then .....who knows :-)

(in reply to MasterK13)

Post #: 64

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 7:33:21 AM

Smutmonger

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Another sort of relationship has a sub who wants the master's limits. I know this kind of woman pretty much chooses a practical sort of man with SOME degree of ego control..who realizes he has a good thing going-and just has no desire to screw up the person who feeds his needs so well.

This same sort of man usually finds himself bored with nuerotic women who play control games with him-in about two minutes.

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Post #: 65

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 10:47:18 AM

nephandi

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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

I have been the slave of a Gorean man I do not think he would agree with the statement that the sub or slave is in control just because she can leave. :O

I would say that it is the Dom who is in control within the bounds of the relationship and those bounds are set by both (or more) parties involved.

I wish you well

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Post #: 66

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 12:42:49 PM

elleX

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I see two different things here ,,
first we are in a free world ( supposed to be ) , so the sub has as much power to end a relation , , she just have to walk out,,, , ( well ,, easy to say )

but in some cases the mental bondage is so strong ,, it put chains on her,,,especially if her Master invested her a lot .Therefore i would say that in a deep Dom/sub relation ,, and if we can talk about a Master slave relation the forces are not equal and i would beleive that the Master has more control ,,
does that make sense ??
elleX

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 67

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 1:53:43 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baldwin

Not having much experience however, this is what I have learned or assimulated (love that word)

Generally speaking (this is not for hard sadism or maso):

A sub is in control. A good Dom will find out what the subs' likes and dislikes are, what are the limits and adjust accordingly.

A subs main concern is how much trust or when trust is given. This is a great leap of faith. (sub in control)

A Dom will use the likes and push the limits and even the dislikes to achieve the subs trust. (Dom in control until or if sub pulls back on trust.)

When trust is given and not "abused" or taken for granted then the relationship will grow and be strong. I do believe it is "more work", at least initially, for the Dom because he is trying to "satisfy" the wants of the sub as well as his own. Eventually, these are meshed together.

I agree with Smutmonger: "No matter how big or bad a "master/mistress" thinks they are-the only power they really have is what the sub gives them".

Yes either one can end a relationship but, how the relationship evolves is in the control of the sub......at least until total trust is given....then .....who knows :-)

Is this what it really boils down to?

If a Dom/me respects a limit or safeword, makes allowances for a sub's day to day health or well-being or generally behaves like a principled, decent and honourable human being and thus is trustworthy ta boot, then it's really just evidence the submissive controls him; makes him dance to her tune etc?

Conversely, the only way a "dominant" can truly control a "relationship" is to be an abusive, violent sociopathic predator who kidnaps, uses and disposes of women who really are only submissive virtue of being a helpless captive? This is what I have to do to get a bit of respect around here?

Welcome to the Forums, btw. Note that this is largely rhetorical and aimed at the greater "sub is da boss" fraternity rather than at you, personally.

Focus.

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Post #: 68

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 2:07:00 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I find it interesting that so many people threw "safewords" into the mix when the OP said nothing about safewords.

Why is it relevant whether the OP mentioned safewords? You've been around for nearly 10 thousand personal posts and you've never once heard of a safeword being used as an example of the submissive having control....

quote:

I also think the quoted statement is hogwash. Every relationship except the one you have with yourself involves another person staying in it and therefore agreeing to its terms, and neither has control over the other person, just over themself.

while I agree about the "quoted statement", it's also just a nonsense to say "neither has control over the other person". Unequal control status is precisely what distinguishes a D/s or M/s relationship from your typical vanilla/egalitarian relationship.

Since neither Dom/me nor sub can function in their respective role without the existence of the other, both have EQUAL power and value to the other. But the *relationship* only works if the Dominant party is controlling the submissive.

Focus.

Profoundly contradictory ... think again ? ...

If you're trying to make a point, then put it on the line and make your point.

"Clever" one-liners are worthy of about the same as respect as the drunken yobbo barracking from the bleachers....

Focus.

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Post #: 69

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 2:17:54 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

I have no control over a "session". It starts, flows and ends when and how he wants it to.
I don't have a safeword. I don't want a safeword.

That's true to a degree but if you were cuddled on the floor, sobbing in pain from an apparent appendix attack, he wouldn't choose to start one. The reality is that the exigencies of life exert their own control over us. We might have wanted to play earlier, but the kids being out of high school for spring break means we can't play at noon.

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Post #: 70

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 2:22:23 PM

Aileen1968

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

I have no control over a "session". It starts, flows and ends when and how he wants it to.
I don't have a safeword. I don't want a safeword.

That's true to a degree but if you were cuddled on the floor, sobbing in pain from an apparent appendix attack, he wouldn't choose to start one. The reality is that the exigencies of life exert their own control over us. We might have wanted to play earlier, but the kids being out of high school for spring break means we can't play at noon.

Of course not. Just because he controls things doesn't mean he's irrational or unrealistic or uncaring.
His biggest appeal to me is that he's wildy sadistic and at the same time controlled and intelligent and reality based.
Plus....I had my appendix out when I was twelve.

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Post #: 71

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 3:20:22 PM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13

I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

Excellent responses from -=

Loved this -

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I am in 100% control of myself when I follow his orders, accept his authority, submit to his will.

and this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
No matter how big or bad a "master/mistress" thinks they are-the only power they really have is what the sub gives them

and this..

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimalConsonance

I think any Dom who spends a lot of time worrying about whether or not he's in charge, isn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

In BDSM relationships, I would argue that "authority" is more important than "control." As applied to Simply Micheal's car analogy, I would say its the driver who has authority over the car, and the car is rather brainless in the relationship (unlike a person.)

Good authority figures don't obsess over controlling others, because they already know they don't control anyone. In lieu of control, the authority figure pays attention to earning respect, instilling discipline, and setting goals for those seeking leadership. To me a Dom/Domme is more like coach or teacher, and less like a boss, warden or policemen.

In BDSM control definitely lies with the sub (who decides what he'll do) but the authority is with the Dom (who sets forth a disciplinary structure.)

In the end there is a fruitful commingling and humility from each: The Dom needs a follower and the sub needs a leader.

This rocked...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Since neither Dom/me nor sub can function in their respective role without the existence of the other, both have EQUAL power and value to the other. But the *relationship* only works if the Dominant party is controlling the submissive.

Focus.

As one of the respondents pointed out - there is an apparent contradiction in the above statement - but to me that is kind of the point... and why D/s relationships can be complex.

Personally, we're all somewhere on a spectrum in terms of a whole set of needs and wants (power/control/authority etc etc).. so it's hard to say "the sub is in control" or "the dom is in control".

I've seen controlling subs, sure! And I've seen extremely controlling doms.

Neither is wrong, provided the controlling sub hooks up with a Dom who doesn't mind being topped from the bottom, and the extremely controlling dom hooks up with a sub who wants that level of surrender.

Personally I liked Focus50's comment because my ideal D/s relationship (I stress - my ideal, not "the ideal") is profoundly equal in the sense that her needs are as important as mine. How that equality manifests itself in the different elements of the relationship is where the D/s comes in for me.

So part of what I find so crazy about D/s is that dichotomy - I am in a relationship that is fundamentally equal, but in which that equality is expressed in an unvonventional way.

On safewords (which isn't quite on topic)... I always offer a safeword and would honestly be a little reluctant to scene with someone I didn't know well without one. Early on they're important, but if things go well they sometimes become redundant. But even when I've known someone very well I've occasionally (occasionally mind you..) got it wrong and my partner's used a safeword.

I'm disappointed when it happens - with myself.

(in reply to MasterK13)

Post #: 72

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 3:38:58 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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General reply, to nobody in particular....

What does the phrase "in control" mean? Does it mean having absolute control? If that's the case, then neither party is "in control," because both parties have some measure of control.

Does the phrase mean "having some control?" Then both parties are in control. Each party in any consensual relationship has some degree of control over the other.

Why does it need to be drilled down any further than that? How much "clarity" are people looking for? It never ceases to amaze me how much effort so many people expend in overthinking things that are so incredibly simple.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 3:48:42 PM

ricken

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I saw that CSI...actually a fan of the show.

The posts here have been great and I've learned a bit,so to add my two cents and try to contribute...

I hoestly don't feel either one of us is in total control, rather we share controll, and each of us has controll of different areas of our life together. Our Dom/sub relationship is slowly coming out of the bedroom, there are things she just does my way because I tell her. Of course I won't tell her to do something stupid, and she respects me as I do her. I give her advice, I teach her what I know. I talk to her when I feel stressed
I can not force her to do anything she doesn't want to do to please me, she does things to please me because that is what she believes is right. She does things the way I tell her to (when I tell her how) because she know I have a reason for it.
As far as our playtime, yeah I am in charge, but I also would't expect it when she is overly tired, had a rough stresfull day, or in a bad mood.
And her control over me? when we first meet I wore "tidy whities" underwear, I am no longer allowed to be seen in them by her. I wear colored boxer-briefs.

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 74

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 6:07:36 PM

Whiplashsmile4

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It's takes two people (Dom and sub) to be in control of various aspects of what the hell is going on...

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 6:19:01 PM

AnimusRex

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I see this sort of question periodically- sort of a lot of navel-gazing, Zen-like pondering as to the True Nature of Control- if she accepts direction, but enjoys her surrender, is it truly surrender, and so on...

I get a bit impatient with it- it strikes me as being more a fixation with the IDEA of control, the fetishization of power for its own sake, than any desire to do something worthwile with that power and cantrol.

I don't care who is in control as long as I get what I want, when I want it, the way I want it.

(in reply to MasterK13)

Post #: 76

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 6:46:26 PM

Jeffff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I see this sort of question periodically- sort of a lot of navel-gazing, Zen-like pondering as to the True Nature of Control- if she accepts direction, but enjoys her surrender, is it truly surrender, and so on...

I get a bit impatient with it- it strikes me as being more a fixation with the IDEA of control, the fetishization of power for its own sake, than any desire to do something worthwile with that power and cantrol.

I don't care who is in control as long as I get what I want, when I want it, the way I want it.

What is the sound of one hand spanking?

JeffWatts

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Post #: 77

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 7:08:35 PM

alhamdullilah

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Is it possible to confuse "control" as a concept with simple cause and effect? I think that's precisely the case in many of the examples I've heard from a variety of sources. Ultimately, however, I do think it is an exercise in futility to carry the question any great distance.

Who's really in control? Well, it sure isn't me; I never seem to get what I want! But then I'm unowned, so- I just know that when I am in a relationship, if I so much as sense that I'm really running the show, albeit perhaps unbeknownst to my Dominant, I am absolutely miserable and will never find peace and pleasure in the relationship, nor will my service be of the quality it should. But in the wrong relationship, with wrong motivations pursued, it can very well happen.

Just my two old ChuckECheese tokens thrown in. (Sorry, need the pennies... :P)

-llilah

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Post #: 78

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 7:11:35 PM

Smutmonger

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It's not that hard really-with as many people out there who are more or less desperate to find someone to express a core part of themselves with. It's something that runs in dreams-then it becomes a waking one.

A lot of them seem to manage with small things that don't quite fit-as long as the large ones match needs.

The control comes from meeting desires.

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Post #: 79

RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/30/2010 7:33:22 PM

ForeverOwned

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Since we both are equallly responsible we both have equal power.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 80

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