RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow

RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:48:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I respect them as human beings because its the right thing to do. Its you compassionate leftists who are constantly running about trying to inform us how superior you are to all the ignorant savages you feel you're surrounded by, isn't it. quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Obama has to kiss arse to make sure they keep selling your country oil. What's your excuse for brown nosing them? I take it you think the Taliban is alright, then?

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:48:35 AM)
At last, a voice of reason. Thank you, Kirata. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata I wouldn't argue that this isn't a factor, but frankly I think the Saudis will sell their oil to anybody with money. I suspect our relatively cordial relations with them have more to do with our analysis of the geopolitical situation in the Middle East. K.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:53:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I respect them as human beings because its the right thing to do. Its you compassionate leftists who are constantly running about trying to inform us how superior you are to all the ignorant savages you feel you're surrounded by, isn't it. So when the Saudi government cuts someone's head off for being a witch, they're just decent but misguided human beings and "moderates", and when a Saudi citizen cuts someone's head off for being an infidel they're radical extremists who must be stamped out. Got it.

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:53:28 AM)
The Taliban is at war, it is their mission to forcefully unite all of Islam according to the prophesies and spread their oppressive theocratic ideology to all corners of the planet, and so I am in direct opposition to them. Anyone who approaches them may be targeted for murder simply for being a non-believer. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I take it you think the Taliban is alright, then?

mnottertail -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:55:00 AM)
Which prophesies would that be then? Nostradamus is amazingly silent on this issue, as is Jeanne Dixon. Ron

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:57:11 AM)
To them he's a dealer of death, a direct agent of Satan, but they are willing to listen to outside voices and they are likely to change and moderate even further, and thats really the best we can hope for. Do you believe you or anyone else has what it takes to change their centuries old culture overnight? Again, there is no talking with al-Qaeda or the Taliban, the radicals in the region. The Saudis however are open to dialogue, and thats the difference. Thats what makes them moderates. quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda So when the Saudi government cuts someone's head off for being a witch, they're just decent but misguided human beings and "moderates", and when a Saudi citizen cuts someone's head off for being an infidel they're radical extremists who must be stamped out. Got it.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:59:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Obama has to kiss arse to make sure they keep selling your country oil. What's your excuse for brown nosing them? I wouldn't argue that this isn't a factor, but frankly I think the Saudis will sell their oil to anybody with money. I suspect our relatively cordial relations with them have more to do with our analysis of the geopolitical situation in the Middle East. K. You're right, but then the question still comes back to why the Middle Eastern geopolitical situation is important enough to us that we're in the position of having to make these compromises in the first place. And that's the oil, about 65% of which is under Saudi Arabia. If all the Mideast had to sell us was sand, we'd build a 5-mile DMZ along both sides of the Suez Canal and no Westerner would ever step outside of it.

toyltsl8v -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 7:59:41 AM)
In Saudi Arabia the hard core criminals get their head chopped off, and the thieves get their hand chopped off. The crime rate there is almost nil where the crime rate here in the US is sky rocketing. I guess the system works very well over there, maybe it should be implemented here. I bet the crime rate here will decrease significabtly.

pleasurebisub -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:00:59 AM)
best idea that would save millions of lifes in the world is a world wide ban on organized religion not on belief in God but on organized religion. Y/you have Muslims and Jewish in the middle east, Catholic and Prodestant in ireland, in the USA Christians will against everyone. religious motivated groups have no give and take no bend there way is the right way and if Y/you do not agree Y/you will die and burn in some kind of hell. God never wanted this but religions are made by man not God

SaintIntensity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:05:28 AM)
"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" - it says in the bible anyway - maybe Christian lawmakers should applaud the Saudis tough stance on sorcerors and the like Harry Potter - you're next!

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:07:45 AM)
China will buy their oil. Russia will buy their oil. India will. Their oil will be sold and they will amass vast wealth. What they do with that wealth depends on who is in power there and since Muslims populate nearly half the planet radicals coming into power could try to weaponize and begin uniting the various Muslim lands by force and become our worst nightmare. Think Nazi Germany, on steroids. Thats the prophesy, thats the plan. They didn't get to where they are by peaceful means, and where they go from here is of great concern to every thinking person on the planet. quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda You're right, but then the question still comes back to why the Middle Eastern geopolitical situation is important enough to us that we're in the position of having to make these compromises in the first place. And that's the oil, about 65% of which is under Saudi Arabia. If all the Mideast had to sell us was sand, we'd build a 5-mile DMZ along both sides of the Suez Canal and no Westerner would ever step outside of it.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:09:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toyltsl8v In Saudi Arabia the hard core criminals get their head chopped off, and the thieves get their hand chopped off. The crime rate there is almost nil where the crime rate here in the US is sky rocketing. I guess the system works very well over there, maybe it should be implemented here. I bet the crime rate here will decrease significabtly. Sure, if the only thing that matters to you in a society is a low crime rate. If you want to live in the 15th Century, give up the right to vote, and live in constant fear of having your head cut off for owning an Ouija board, be my guest, but I prefer the 21st Century myself. Anyway, the crime rate in the United States is not skyrocketing at all. I don't know where you get that idea. It's dropped every year since 2001 or 2002.

LadyEllen -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:12:50 AM)
Rather obviously perhaps, this is all a matter of differing cultures. The Saudis have a perfect right to determine what their laws should be and what the penalty should be for breaching them, and since their culture will play a dominant role in those determinations it should come as no surprise that we see problems with them where our cultural and thence legal model is at variance. Our problem in this instance boils down to two principle areas I believe - that we no longer believe in the efficacy of magic whilst the Saudis do and therefore criminalise it - that we believe the individual has a perfect right to self expression and the Saudis do not It is not so much that their culture is more primitive than ours but that it is different. To hold that it is more primitive is to invite comparisons that may not show us in the best of lights, let alone as a perfect guide to social and cultural betterment or to an optimal system of laws and justice, on other counts. But that is not to say that we should not comment as we wish on the situation and seek to exert what pressure we might to avoid the legal process and sanction, understanding that the Saudis are quite free to heed or ignore our calls for clemency, and understanding that it is solely down to our culture and expectations that we see any need to do so. Should it be a crime to practise magic? No. Even so, should it be a capital offence? Absolutely not. Should the defendant be at any risk of prosecution for failing to believe as he is told? Of course not. But I only think that because of the cultural background of time and place I live in - were I in the same place a few centuries back I might have answered quite to the contrary. So all in all I think most people here are correct to criticise and attack Saudi Arabia over this matter, but I also think Sanity is correct (major heart attack) that we have to engage with these people if we wish to see change towards the values we espouse through effecting changes to culture - although in that I would also say that we ought not be afraid of effects on our values and culture where we could learn a thing or two from the other side. The key is exactly this, to encourage them to change their ideas according to what we can give them which is of advantage to them and that they perceive to be of advantage to them, reciprocating that openness according to what we find useful of theirs. E

kittinSol -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:14:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toyltsl8v In Saudi Arabia the hard core criminals get their head chopped off, and the thieves get their hand chopped off. The crime rate there is almost nil where the crime rate here in the US is sky rocketing. I guess the system works very well over there, maybe it should be implemented here. I bet the crime rate here will decrease significabtly. They also condemn "witches" to death. What a fucking wonderful system indeed. Seriously: can you be any more moronic [:D] ?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:15:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity To them he's a dealer of death, a direct agent of Satan, but they are willing to listen to outside voices and they are likely to change and moderate even further, and thats really the best we can hope for. Do you believe you or anyone else has what it takes to change their centuries old culture overnight? Again, there is no talking with al-Qaeda or the Taliban, the radicals in the region. The Saudis however are open to dialogue, and thats the difference. Thats what makes them moderates. OK, so religious lunatics who cut people's heads off for witchcraft are moderates if they are our business partners, extremists if they are not. The only criterion for whether a Muslim fundamentalist fanatic is a moderate or an extremist is whether or not they are our friends. Got it.

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:15:28 AM)
Wow, E. Just, wow. Thank you. [sm=applause.gif]

LadyEllen -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:33:35 AM)
Youre welcome Sanity, but dont get too excited - I'd argue that its the sort of views, ideas and policies you regularly advocate that should show us in a poor light to judge the Saudis and possibly where we might have a thing or two to learn from them. E

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:46:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen It is not so much that their culture is more primitive than ours but that it is different. To hold that it is more primitive is to invite comparisons that may not show us in the best of lights, let alone as a perfect guide to social and cultural betterment or to an optimal system of laws and justice, on other counts.... I can't agree with that. Any culture that beheads people for practicing witchcraft is, by definition, primitive. If you want to argue that Western culture is primitive in many ways as well, that's a valid point - but a separate argument. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Should it be a crime to practise magic? No. Even so, should it be a capital offence? Absolutely not. Should the defendant be at any risk of prosecution for failing to believe as he is told? Of course not. But I only think that because of the cultural background of time and place I live in - were I in the same place a few centuries back I might have answered quite to the contrary. But that's the point - we're not living a few centuries back. We're living right now. Despite our many faults, Western culture has at least moved past the days of the Spanish Inquisition. Saudi culture has not, and that makes them a primitive society. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So all in all I think most people here are correct to criticise and attack Saudi Arabia over this matter, but I also think Sanity is correct (major heart attack) that we have to engage with these people if we wish to see change towards the values we espouse through effecting changes to culture - although in that I would also say that we ought not be afraid of effects on our values and culture where we could learn a thing or two from the other side. The key is exactly this, to encourage them to change their ideas according to what we can give them which is of advantage to them and that they perceive to be of advantage to them, reciprocating that openness according to what we find useful of theirs. Which all sounds good, but if the net effect of this engagement is that after 70 years of mutual observation the Saudis are still beheading people for sorcery and cutting people's hands off for drinking, how much change have we encouraged? I'd argue very little. In fact, I'd argue that this policy of benign engagement has served more to enable the Saudi royal family to stay rooted in the extremist, primitive ways of the past by protecting them and insulating them from the forces of real change.

LadyEllen -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:51:19 AM)
What are our options though Panda? We cant realistically impose our culture and values on them, all we can do is educate, inform, prompt, cajole and encourage. E

Justme696 -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 8:51:20 AM)
quote: their culture is more primitive their culture should be very old and way from primitive ..but I wonder if it is the culture that causes beheadings..or religion..

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