RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:11:31 PM)

Wow....you do realise we are not exactly solving the worlds problems on these pages...there is no need to be so damm stiff !
Now,having said that I will allow you all to get back to your second guessing of the actions and reactions of actual soldiers in actual combat zones.
Perhaps ,and I know its a long shot(and of course it will depend on no additional hijackings) you all,by banging this around some more....might actually come up with a freaking solution to errant casualties with in war zones.....good luck with all of that.
Our hopes and dreams are wrapped up in a successful discussion.
carry on Elisabella!



brainiacsub -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:12:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Hence my asking you to learn to swing a flogger.....I had assumed,erroneously it would seem,that you would willingly switch identification to have a shot at getting next to one as bright and witty as I.....it appears I have made a mistake [:-]

Mike, and I was thinking you would switch sides for me. Our shared proclivity of politics just won't be enough when we are so sexually incompatible. We play for the same team. I guess that'll have to be enough.



slvemike4u -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:16:59 PM)

Sorry sweetheart...an old shoulder injury incurred playing college ball,and just as I was going in for the winning score( I of course was the quaterback for Heritic University back in their heydey...yanno before they became just another RINO university)  precludes my swinging the whip.....damm the bad breaks.[:D]



Elisabella -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:18:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wow....you do realise we are not exactly solving the worlds problems on these pages...there is no need to be so damm stiff !
Now,having said that I will allow you all to get back to your second guessing of the actions and reactions of actual soldiers in actual combat zones.
Perhaps ,and I know its a long shot(and of course it will depend on no additional hijackings) you all,by banging this around some more....might actually come up with a freaking solution to errant casualties with in war zones.....good luck with all of that.
Our hopes and dreams are wrapped up in a successful discussion.
carry on Elisabella!


I haven't done any second guessing. I support the soldiers actions, tragic as the outcome may have been.



brainiacsub -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:24:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Sweetheart, I am well read in many aspects of economics...my comment was tongue-in-cheek.

But for the record, most of the Conservatives who discuss economics on these forums studied at the Palin School of Read it From My Palm.


Your comment was ridiculous, as "conservative economics" is allied with some of the greatest economic thinkers of history. It was one of those meaningless displays of partisanism that people like to spew on this forum in order to make themselves feel like they're on the "right side" of things.

I disagree with conservatives on many things but economics is one thing they seem to have down pat. Please don't confuse "neo-cons" with conservatives.

Relax Elisabella...I am a student of conservative economics and am not entirely disagreeable. You want to talk monetarism, supply side, Friedman, Rueff, Hayek...please start a thread and I'll join you. Most conservatives in these boards can only parrot - tax cuts, spending cuts, big govt, blah, blah, blah....



domiguy -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:25:47 PM)

Let's kick some dust off the old fucker and take it for a spin.....

Hey ladies, Bush sucks.



brainiacsub -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:33:03 PM)

Think you are going to insite a girlfight?

...troll



slvemike4u -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:35:09 PM)

I realise that Elisabela ....I have read the thread.Let me break it down for you....a certain segment of posters are quite naturally appalled at what they are seeing(actually I would say all are appaled,the conflict actually arises from the reaction to that emotion)and proceed to second guess the soldiers....another segment ,as far as I am concerned,a more rational and clear thinking segment have correctly stated that this is pretty much the very nature of war...and these thing,as appalling as they might be are to be expected in a war zone.
How am I doing so far?
Well about at that point a third type of poster showed up and just decided to make a completely uncalled for and childish remark to the effect of....."if you were in a war zone you would wet your pants and call your mommy"...or words to that effect.
I took exception to that post....and stated so,he than referenced another thread....yada yada yada...brainiacsub came along...and well you know the rest.
So there you have it....and if I must I will apologise for derailing the thread....but I will insist on pointing out it was a silly little thread in the first place.The very idea of it more than a little insulting to those who wear a uniform and get sent into harms way...a bunch of candy assed civilians sitting around in the comfort of their homes evaluating their performance of their duties......duties performed where real bullets fly.
No,not much here at all.



jlf1961 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:49:36 PM)

95,775 – 104,481 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the war started, that includes those killed by insurgents.

For all those members of these boards who have never walked a patrol in a hot zone, I envy you. Having done that in 1982-1983 in a nice little place called Beirut, I can tell you that when you see a bunch of people who LOOK like they are carrying weapons gets the pucker factor going to maximum. If you draw fire and those people look like they have weapons, you will put out rounds, just as soon as the patrol commander tells you to.

Sorry folks, but when I had incoming rounds buzzing around my head, I am going to shoot first and ask questions later. My opinion is that I can answer charges later, and if it was clear that there were rounds incoming, I am going to be cleared.

People are caught in the crossfire, if they are smart they are going to find some sort of cover and hug the ground. If they are still standing up when the firing starts, they are going to get hit. Sorry to be so blunt, but those are the facts of life.

Finally, I am sorry, but my hide is more important in that situation than anyone else's except those guys in my unit.



brainiacsub -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:50:23 PM)

Let me add 2 more cents to the buck I already contributed. For the record, I was an active duty soldier. I found it rather amusing that people who have never served could question the training and the motives of the soldiers in this particular case. However, I do generally support these types of discussions because it's vital to a thriving democracy. If nothing else, it keeps those in power honest.

This thread had deteriorated into a tit for tat that I just couldn't resist, and it was 1:00 am. No excuse, but there you have it. My apologies as well.



domiguy -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/5/2010 11:56:11 PM)

Being a narcissist, I shall never apologize. Bush still sucks.



Politesub53 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 2:07:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Also Hitler carpet bombed the living hell out of Britain. Suggesting we emulate this tactic?

Actually just the opposite is true.
You might want to look up the total tonnage of bombs dropped by the Germans on Britian vs. tonnage of the allies on Germany.  "Bomber Harris is the poster child for "carpet bombing".


Thompson, your point seems pedantic to me,  does the fact the Germans dropped less bombs mean that the blitz didnt happen ? 



luckydawg -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 2:13:53 AM)

Polite, you are missing the larger error in his thinking. He is comparing Germanys bombing of England to Russia, America, Britian, and the rest of our allies bombing of Germany.




LadyEllen -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 3:48:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Also Hitler carpet bombed the living hell out of Britain. Suggesting we emulate this tactic?

Actually just the opposite is true.
You might want to look up the total tonnage of bombs dropped by the Germans on Britian vs. tonnage of the allies on Germany.  "Bomber Harris is the poster child for "carpet bombing".


Thompson, your point seems pedantic to me,  does the fact the Germans dropped less bombs mean that the blitz didnt happen ? 


The nazis didnt "carpet bomb" Britain in any sense that we might understand. They launched concentrated air raids on key targets - factories, dockyards and so on. And even then, if you compare the bomb load of the Heinkel and Junkers aircraft used by the nazis with that of allied aircraft, you will see that it wasnt simply numbers of aircraft that made the difference between 1940-41 over Britain and 1943-45 over Germany.

Its a "funny old story" all in all, starting with the Parliament of the UK (Conservative) seeing real ethical problems with bombing German factories and facilities since they were private property, would you believe it?

Then there was the initial attack on Britain, where the nazis were doing well with bombing the RAF airfields, despite the losses they were suffering, to the extent that the RAF was almost rendered useless as a form of resistance.

Then the nazis changed strategy and went for factories and dockyards, bombing thousands of civilians out in the process and allowing the RAF some breathing space to recover. We were saved to no small extent by the nazi change of strategy to the bombing of private property that the Conservative party had found reprehensible and we eventually won with a contribution from that same strategy applied to the enemy.

It is arguable that the nazis' bombing of civilians was incidental to their strategy of targeting factories and dockyards - not that they cared either way, but it is not arguable that the allied bombing of civilians was anything but a deliberate part of the strategy.

E



Elisabella -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 6:13:57 AM)

Sorry, I get violent sometimes :-/



Aneirin -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 8:01:28 AM)

Well, this sorry incident has now made it to the world news ;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1263822/WikiLeaks-Iraq-video-Horrific-footage-shows-U-S-soldiers-shooting-dead-civilians--laughing-bodies.html





domiguy -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 8:24:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub



This thread had deteriorated into a tit for tat


How does a fella go about getting a hold of a pile of these tats?

This is important shit!!!



Thadius -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 9:06:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

So, I guess the consensus is shoot anyone carrying anything..., because all kinds of things look vaguely like all kinds of thing. Is that honestly the standard for killing people..

Lovely.


Seeing as the MO of the opposition is to use any means necessary to kill or injure as many as possible, if there is reasonable cause to believe somebody is about to do you or your sqad harm, yes shoot the fucker and ask questions later. For the record, a video camera that was converted into a weapon is exactly how OBL took out the balancing opposition leader in Afghanistan. Typically an rpg is the first weapon fired in an ambush, to disable the lead vehicle so that the rifles can do their work on the passengers of the vehicles. Seeing armed men and then something that resembled an rpg being aimed, would set off alarm bells the size of the bells of Notre Dame in many combatants heads, and would garner the exact same response.

You should feel better though, recent changes to the ROE provides for advanced notice of any searches of homes or buildings in Afghanistan, that should cut down immensely on the armed conflicts, save the enemy wants to setup an ambush.

What standard do you propose we apply to our men and women on the ground?



subrob1967 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 10:15:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Theoretically speaking you have a point, right up until they shot the wounded and the rescuers. Don`t tell me you find that acceptable.


Perhaps if the "rescuer's" would have arrived in a van marked with a red cross or crescent they wouldn't have been targeted as reinforcements.

Just how did the pilots know the "rescuer's" weren't there to pull out a high value target?




subrob1967 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 10:19:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Polite, it depends on what the rules of engagement were. It seems clear the ROE prohibited firing on an unarmed wounded man, and they complied with this, even though they obviously wanted to finish him off. I'm inferring that the ROE did authorize them to shoot a wounded insurgent to prevent him from escaping, and as hard is it may be to watch, I can understand the reasoning for this. You don't want him to get fixed up so that you have to kill him again next month. Neither of us can know exactly what the ROE were, but if I'm guessing right, it looks as though they were followed.


Dead men tell no tales, without wounded insurgents, the Iraqi's wouldn't have anyone to interrogate.



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