RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 9:55:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not to mention our conventional forces are far, far stronger than Russia's (or anyone else's).

Well, that was why NATO was set up as a world police force in the first place, wasn't it? The set up was looking pretty redundant as soon as the Soviet Union imploded.
I'd question that your armed forces are better than China's though: you have the guns, but they have the numbers...


Build a world police force and someone will find use for it.


OMG-  that was my thought.   My ooodley thought jumped right into your head- it did - it did!!!




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 9:56:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and by the way, once again this 'supposed' original words from the op is a plagarism (as nearly 99% of his crap is, notwithstanding his further prevarication regarding same...) from a chris w of abbington mass, a 24 year old with about a 7 year old political intelligence.


Ron


The OP gave a link to the original article.  I don't see where he claimed the words were originally his.

If you want to attack his logic and reasoning, go ahead.  Attacking him for specious reasons doesn't make a lot of sense. It reflects on you, not him.

Firm




Moonhead -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 9:59:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
1. NATO never has been a 'world police force".

No, but your country tends to treat it as one when it serves your purposes to do so. Iirc, that was what all of the pissing and moaning about the French telling you to fuck off and fight your own wars in 2003 was over, wasn't it? A lot of people had very cosy sinecures that were threatened by the collapse of the warsaw pact, and so they needed to find another excuse for NATO's existence.

quote:

2. In modern warfare, numbers are a factor, but a very small factor when compared to logistics, command and control, available technology and training. 

Firm


Try telling that to the Vietnamese. You might like to mention it to the Koreans, the Bosnians, the Irish Republicans and the Afghanis while you're at it as well.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:00:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No argument with that, Mike, but (as you say) your military is pretty useless for what you want it doing at the moment, unfortunately.


Would you mind expanding on this thought?

How is our military "pretty useless" for "what [we] want it doing at the moment"?

Firm




Yourthreshold -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:01:05 AM)

There's a saying regarding China and the US that applies to both of us right now. If you owe the bank ten thousand dollars the bank owns you. If you owe the bank ten million dollars you own the bank.




countrychick -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:03:06 AM)

Interestingly enough it appears that this has been going on for many years prior to President Obama's election.. From the Department of Defence Website..

http://www.defense.gov/news/nuclearweaponspolicy.pdf

So the President's current manouverings are a continuation of former policy, a little bit more noise to go with it because, SHOCK AND AWE! they're trying to work together with the Russians.

PS. Although I wasn't alive during the cold war (born 1986, perhaps I caught the tail end of it?) If I remember correctly from history class it was basically an arms race without any actual fighting? Kinda like when two boys go at each other at the bar all yelling and screaming but won't throw a punch? ;)




RacerJim -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:03:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: countrychick

China isn't going to attack the US, the USA is one of their largest export markets ;) Unless.. they close the border.. at which point expect Pearl Harbour all over again! SO totally joking on this but yea I don't see any country in the world attacking the USA.. too strong an enemy before you go and say it, no I don't think Afghanistan attacked the USA, I think some crazy terrorists did and even that could be questionable. And Iraq the USA fullout invaded all on its own without provocation irregardless of whether WMD's were found or not. Now if all those Asian and Middle Eastern countries got together... then I'm moving to the arctic and praying that Santa Claus has a force field over his igloo :D

PS. before you attack my ignorance yes I know Pearl Harbour was a Japanese attack..


Your ", I think some crazy terrorists did [attacked the USA on 9-11-01] and even that could be questionable." is prima-facie evidence of your ignorance/naivete/liberal bias. Additionally, the USA did not invade Iraq either on its own or without provocation by Iraq, rather it did so with a 20+ country coalition and after several provocations by Iraqi fighter-jets towards our fighter-jets in violation of the UN's "No Fly Zone". Perhaps you should move to the Artic, build yourself an igloo and pray that China, Iran and North Korea don't form a coalition.




Moonhead -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:05:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No argument with that, Mike, but (as you say) your military is pretty useless for what you want it doing at the moment, unfortunately.


Would you mind expanding on this thought?

How is our military "pretty useless" for "what [we] want it doing at the moment"?

Firm


It's a pretty simple point that doesn't really need explaining further: your military, based on its performance in Iraq since Hussein was deposed and Afghanistan more or less since it arrived there, isn't very effective at dealing with insurgency. I'm told it had much the same problem in Vietnam, Bosnia and Korea, so this is hardly a new development.




MasterCord -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:05:27 AM)

Oh well.....what do we expect from a man who sat around listening to the "Reverend" (what a joke...) Wright for years and is married to a woman who expressed open hatred for this nation. A man who may not be a citizen legally. This man knew from the start that he'd have only 4 years to destroy this country and why is anyone surprised he is doing it? Those who do not understand/believe that Obama wishes to destroy and weaken this nation are either naive or blind.  I predicted he'd go after the military....and he has.

Fortunately we can begin removing his ability to act this November. Sooner of we can ever get hold of his REAL birth records.

MC

Perhaps he will go down (so to speak) in history as "The Knee Pad President"....



quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer

Apparently aware that support for his policies and of liberal policies in general is evaporating faster than a mud puddle in the Sahara desert, Emperor Obama has been on blitzkrieg of further weakening the nation both economically and internationally.

One day after announcing to the world that under no circumstances would the USA ever use nuclear weapons in response to a non-nuclear attack, the president who thinks he is a king, has agreed to hobble America's missile defense system. A missile defense system that the Russians are strongly opposed to, because it effectively tilts the balance of power to the USA. Today in Russia. While the administration has not released details of the treaty, the Russians are hailing this as a victory. Basically the president caved into each and every Russian demand. It would appear that the defense of America is secondary to his desire to pretend that there can ever be a nuclear free world. The Russians are the winners in this agreement, which still must be approved by Congress, there is little doubt that it will receive the support of the left, who's overwhelming desire to reduce the US to a banana Republic is embodied in this administration.

This of course comes on the heels of the US emperors unilateral decision and announcement to terrorists world wide that the USA will not under any circumstances respond to a chemical or biological weapon attack with nuclear weapons. Not to worry friends, the president has assured a worried population that rather than a nuclear a response, he will speak very sternly against any person or nation who might attack the US in this way. He also implied he might wag a finger while delivering this stern warning and pronouncement of disappointment. As a final measure he will ask the UN to produce a letter of condemnation of any WMD attack against us.

The world is learning rapidly that it is indeed a very dangerous time to be an ally of the USA. While the the Great and Powerful Obama has literally kissed the ring of Arab despots, bowed to dictators and publicly professed his desire to engage murderous dictators worldwide in talks, he has snubbed our only ally in the mid east, Israel, by presuming to tell them where in their own country they may build homes and then refused to meet with the Israeli president publicly. He has canceled trips to visit allies in Asia to help ram through a health bill law opposed by a vast majority of Americans and backed out of a promised missile defense system with Czech Republic, to protect them from an ever more aggressive Russia.

The first action taken towards enacting the new health care abomination was to hire 15,000 new IRS auditors to make sure it is enforced, then claimed that the IRS would not be involved in enforcing it. While the nation continues to hemmorage jobs, the federal government has increased it's work force by an astonishing 10+% in the last year alone. While private sector jobs continue to be scarce, he recently added several hundred new employees to the Immigration enforcement dept. Not to crack down on illegal immigration, don't be silly, this increase in in agents is specifically assigned to making sure illegal immigrants in the construction industry are being paid prevailing union wage. Any company found paying an illegal immigrant less than that wage will be fined and forced to pay retroactive back pay to the criminal who is stealing an Americans job.

I have to admit, 1 year and a few months into this joke of an administration, I was wrong about this guy. Before the election I was fond of telling people if you liked Jimmy Carter you'll love this guy. I thought Jimmy Carter was as bad as a president could be. I was wrong. I would gladly trade four more years of the idiot peanut farmer for two and half years of this marxist.

It has become apparent that Obama has recognized the fact he has only 6 months to complete his destruction of the American economy and defense. So he is moving ahead full bore with every wack job socialist agenda item he can. It would appear his strategy is that if he does enough monstrous things to the nation in a short time we will not be able to undo them all when the nation votes the liberals out of power in November.

Once upon a time we could take solace in the fact that his approval rating is dropping faster than any president since they started keeping track of that type of thing, but it is of no concern to him. This president is nothing less than a political suicide bomber. He knows full well he is destroying the Democrat party and that he has virtually no hope for re-election. His goal is to do as much damage as possible before he and the democrats self immolate.

www.apathetic-usa.com







pahunkboy -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:05:37 AM)

I am unable to focus on the OP.   I mean- kitchen sinks --   and purple unicorns. 





FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:07:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
1. NATO never has been a 'world police force".

No, but your country tends to treat it as one when it serves your purposes to do so. Iirc, that was what all of the pissing and moaning about the French telling you to fuck off and fight your own wars in 2003 was over, wasn't it? A lot of people had very cosy sinecures that were threatened by the collapse of the warsaw pact, and so they needed to find another excuse for NATO's existence.


Personally, I think NATO should be disbanded, or that the US should pull out and let you Euro's take over the costs, or let it die.

However, in direct response to your point, NATO is an international alliance that is suppose to ensure that the member countries come to the aid of any member who is attack.

The US was attacked.  I don't specifically remember the French not honoring their treaty commitments (they have troops in Afghanistan still, I believe).  Is this what you are talking about with the French?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
2. In modern warfare, numbers are a factor, but a very small factor when compared to logistics, command and control, available technology and training. 


Try telling that to the Vietnamese. You might like to mention it to the Koreans, the Bosnians, the Irish Republicans and the Afghanis while you're at it as well.


hmmm, the Koreans and the Bosians lost didn't they?  The Irish Republicans are a Brit issue, and I believe I've heard something about a peace there.  Afghanistan fell in a few weeks, although there is still an insurgency.

Vietnam was a loss of political will, not a military defeat per se.

Firm




Moonhead -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:07:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: countrychick

Interestingly enough it appears that this has been going on for many years prior to President Obama's election.. From the Department of Defence Website..

http://www.defense.gov/news/nuclearweaponspolicy.pdf

So the President's current manouverings are a continuation of former policy, a little bit more noise to go with it because, SHOCK AND AWE! they're trying to work together with the Russians.

PS. Although I wasn't alive during the cold war (born 1986, perhaps I caught the tail end of it?) If I remember correctly from history class it was basically an arms race without any actual fighting? Kinda like when two boys go at each other at the bar all yelling and screaming but won't throw a punch? ;)

It was more of a "who can piss the highest" contest than an arms race. There was all sorts of other ridiculous crap money was wasted on besides nukes.




RacerJim -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:11:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LashVicious

Hmm, and Bush and his acolytes did such a GREAT job.  They had their turn.  It seems like sour grapes for the "conservatives"(although I can't see WHAT they're "conserving"...) who thought they were going to rule the American Empire in perpetuity.  Get over it.


Oh well, I guess expecting this thread to be deviod of anti-Bush rhetoric to obfuscate Obama's aquisence to Russia's demands was just too much to expect.




countrychick -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:11:51 AM)

So you mean to say that the terrorists who did the whole 9-11 thing were acting under the direct orders of the Afghan government? Not in their own self interests and hey lets poke the sleeping giant?

And the Iraq thing fine I'll admit I didn't know about the fighter jet thing but thats grounds for the invasion of an entire country? Why not just have the USA's fighter jets shoot the Iraqi fighter jets out of the sky, problem solved?

From the White House archives..

"
THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. American and coalition forces have begun a concerted campaign against the regime of Saddam Hussein. In this war, our coalition is broad, more than 40 countries from across the globe. Our cause is just, the security of the nations we serve and the peace of the world. And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people. "

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html

I'm not seeing anything there about fighter jets getting into the wrong air space?




mnottertail -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:12:16 AM)

nope, no solid fact. and in fact we cannot blow up the world in the conventional sense, but radiate and poison the water and land and eventually all the life in it.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Wpngall.html

thats a pretty good estimate of the number and kilotonnage we got today, does not include china and does not include russia, britian france (and some other bit players, PAKISTAN, INDIA and so on.)

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/1997/00/00_babst_consequences.php
This is the best, latest I can find at the mo, Firm.....

And of course this is all questionable (source, calculations, and tonnage counts) but anything over one world, just like a mouthful of tit, is wasted.

Ron




pahunkboy -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:14:45 AM)

Chick-  you are going to upset people --  asking questions- about 9-11 is,  radical.

(even tho 7 was imploded!)




Musicmystery -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:15:32 AM)

People should also consider that the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are literally fractions of the power of today's nuclear weapons.

Only a few would severely hurt us all, from nuclear winter dust clouds to deadly levels of radiation globally (weather moves around--there's no escaping the effects of a nuclear strike).

In short, nuking anyone is suicidal.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:18:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No argument with that, Mike, but (as you say) your military is pretty useless for what you want it doing at the moment, unfortunately.


Would you mind expanding on this thought?

How is our military "pretty useless" for "what [we] want it doing at the moment"?

Firm


It's a pretty simple point that doesn't really need explaining further: your military, based on its performance in Iraq since Hussein was deposed and Afghanistan more or less since it arrived there, isn't very effective at dealing with insurgency. I'm told it had much the same problem in Vietnam, Bosnia and Korea, so this is hardly a new development.


Well, actually I do think you need to explain further.

I'll admit that insurgency isn't any conventional militaries' strength, especially Western militaries', due to the fact that the most effective way to destroy an insurgency is to kill any and all supporters.  We simply don't do that.

However, based on the situation on the four American situations you mentioned, I don't think you can actually come to the conclusion that we are incapable of it, nor that we are even that bad at it, compared to any other Western military (and yes, I know the Brits have a reputation, and we can argue that if you wish, but there is no other Western military that you can make the claim that they are "better" than the US military in insurgency operations, I don't believe).

Firm




countrychick -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:18:49 AM)

oh i'm not questioning it.. I have my opinions which i'm entitled to and others have theirs. Whether it was a terrorist attack or a consipiracy by the government doesn't really matter to me and I do not wish to argue it, lots of facts, thoughts and ideas going both ways, hopefully in 1000 years someone will find the definitive answer ;).

What bugs me most about it is that Saddam got caught and killed but Osama is still running free, pretty sure Osama was the one behind the attack or was the scapegoat for it no matter which way you look at it, why not string him up too??




countrychick -> RE: Obama Weakens American National Defense; Liberals Cheer (4/12/2010 10:21:25 AM)

I'll argue the Canadians are better! Not necessarily greater numbers but damn we can do our job when we need to ;). Vimy Ridge anyone? Or any other number of peace keeping missions our boys and girls have been on? I dont know specifics, I'm not in the military, nor do I know whats currently going down in Afghanistan but hey the Americans keep begging us to stay, must mean we're doing something right ;)




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