RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (Full Version)

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heartcream -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 8:58:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

See that's the thing - either reparations will fix the problem or it won't.

If it'll fix the problem, there's no use talking about the problem anymore.

If it won't fix the problem, well then it's not much of a solution is it?



Um no. One portion does not need to fix the whole thing or not.

Things work together to fix things and it and it is alllll worth talking about and doing until the is job done.

No, it is not much of a solution is it? Money does not heal these sorts of wounds but as you know being alive on this poor planet how much it helps. Everything and anything that can be done to fix the problem is valuable. This big bad world hasnt worked that way though has it? No the unfairness and ridiculousness still prevails.





thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 9:18:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

Alright, you know what, I think I would support reparations. If people really think it's going to make things better, just name the price. The government should offer at least $10k to start out with, for anyone who's descended from an African slave. And then it will be all better. Seriously. There will be no more 150 year grudge, any resentment over slavery could be ended with a simple "stfu, you got reparations, it's fixed now."

Because then it will be fixed, right? No more problem at all? Cash settlement, case closed. It would probably work out in both parties best interest because they can both look to the future instead of the past.

So yeah. Reparations. Anyone who complains about slavery after receiving them will be fined an amount equal to the reparations they were given. I'd vote for it.



When people get divorced there is a property settlement, which is right. No where in the settlement decree does it state that either party has to stfu about their feelings about what has transpired.
If I appologize to you for some prior transgression you may forgive me but will you ever be able to forget?





GotSteel -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 5:36:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It would appear that black and brown people are more highly represented in our prisons than their population percentage is in the general public.

Agreed, what's your point?




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 5:52:38 PM)

quote:

Thought I'd throw some reality at your racist ranting: http://www.bop.gov/about/facts.jsp

Inmates By Race White:121,649(57.9 %) Black:81,054(38.6 %) Native American:3,783(1.8 %) Asian:3,673(1.7 %)
Hispanic:69,385(33.0 %)


P.S. I'm part Scottish, can I get some reparations?


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It would appear that black and brown people are more highly represented in our prisons than their population percentage is in the general public.

Agreed, what's your point?


My point was:
what is your point?




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 7:18:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It would appear that black and brown people are more highly represented in our prisons than their population percentage is in the general public.

Agreed, what's your point?




Nice -- while I was gone you apparently solved your own question.

Saves me the trouble.




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 7:22:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

So yeah. Reparations. Anyone who complains about slavery after receiving them will be fined an amount equal to the reparations they were given. I'd vote for it.


Reminds me of laws against holocaust denial...

Although, after all, the Jews did get Israel, err, right?



Oh get off your whiney ass soap box. You want to label me a bigot? have at it. im half sioux. I didnt support the bail out... but WE the people were not asked.

Reparations is one of those topics that keeps popping up from time to time to cause a shit storm in order to divert the attention away from the issues at hand.

Your ancestors were held in bondage (assuming they were) for 400 years.

So were mine.

They had to fight for their freedom.

So did mine.

Yours was given land and a mule.

Just when you believe you have it so bad, along comes another group that has it worse. Gates should be advocating improvements in the educational system and health care instead of insiting on checks... checks that will quickly be gone, the people they were intended to help left with little to show for it, and not a single change in their situation.


So... not that it matters, but I'm neither Jewish nor black.

In terms of Native Americans -- maybe you could start a thread on it if you want to talk about it.

I just think it's interesting how people react to this issue so emotionally.




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 7:29:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You have to first show that people alive today were injured by what transpired in the past. As to those who were slaves, there is no monetary value that can be placed on thier lives lost imo.


Just like there is no monetary value that can be placed on these mortgage derivatives, imo.

I guess we should just evict all the sub-white, I mean sub-prime, I mean black homeowners and look toward the future! [:D]


Those are your scurrilous ideas.... not mine. My thought was that lives lost were more precious and anguish suffered more horrendous than can be measured in dollars.


The only 'scurrilous idea' is the one that states losses of life and livelihood cannot be measured in dollar terms, when clearly the whole working world is based on this equation. Like it or not, there's nothing crazier than saying it doesn't happen every single day.

(Side note: How do you think insurance works, for instance? LOL... reparations versus preparations. It's all right to prepare, not all right to repair. 'Thank you, thank you. I'm here all night!' [:D])




tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 7:46:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

So yeah. Reparations. Anyone who complains about slavery after receiving them will be fined an amount equal to the reparations they were given. I'd vote for it.


Reminds me of laws against holocaust denial...

Although, after all, the Jews did get Israel, err, right?



Oh get off your whiney ass soap box. You want to label me a bigot? have at it. im half sioux. I didnt support the bail out... but WE the people were not asked.

Reparations is one of those topics that keeps popping up from time to time to cause a shit storm in order to divert the attention away from the issues at hand.

Your ancestors were held in bondage (assuming they were) for 400 years.

So were mine.

They had to fight for their freedom.

So did mine.

Yours was given land and a mule.

Just when you believe you have it so bad, along comes another group that has it worse. Gates should be advocating improvements in the educational system and health care instead of insiting on checks... checks that will quickly be gone, the people they were intended to help left with little to show for it, and not a single change in their situation.


So... not that it matters, but I'm neither Jewish nor black.

In terms of Native Americans -- maybe you could start a thread on it if you want to talk about it.

I just think it's interesting how people react to this issue so emotionally.


I dont need a thread because its not an issue the natives are screaming about. Despite all their problems, they are attempting to take care of their own. My point in this was to show the abuse that other groups have undergone over the centuries... its not just a black issue.




tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 7:51:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You have to first show that people alive today were injured by what transpired in the past. As to those who were slaves, there is no monetary value that can be placed on thier lives lost imo.


Just like there is no monetary value that can be placed on these mortgage derivatives, imo.

I guess we should just evict all the sub-white, I mean sub-prime, I mean black homeowners and look toward the future! [:D]


Those are your scurrilous ideas.... not mine. My thought was that lives lost were more precious and anguish suffered more horrendous than can be measured in dollars.


The only 'scurrilous idea' is the one that states losses of life and livelihood cannot be measured in dollar terms, when clearly the whole working world is based on this equation. Like it or not, there's nothing crazier than saying it doesn't happen every single day.

(Side note: How do you think insurance works, for instance? LOL... reparations versus preparations. It's all right to prepare, not all right to repair. 'Thank you, thank you. I'm here all night!' [:D])



Then lets send them all a check for 10 grand, provided they can prove ancestory. How long do you believe that would last? And do you honestly believe it would improve the lives of most of the people who would receive the checks?

Or would a mandate to improve the educational system work far better for these people?




GotSteel -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 9:32:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
My point was:
what is your point?


Fair question, I consider accurate data as opposed to inaccurate generalizations to be an important foundation for any debate. That was my one and only point, Silence8 was spewing bullshit and I called him on that.




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/27/2010 9:57:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
My point was:
what is your point?


Fair question, I consider accurate data as opposed to inaccurate generalizations to be an important foundation for any debate. That was my one and only point, Silence8 was spewing bullshit and I called him on that.



I referenced a book and a news segment. What else do you want from me? How many references does it take to screw in your light bulb?




xBullx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 6:38:24 AM)

-fast reply-

Jerry Jones built an Empire for the most part on his own, Mike Brown had one handed to him. People respect Jerry and all his ego-eccentric ways because he earned his own way. Mike does things a bit less than orthodox and people chastise the shit out of him, imply he had it all given to him and he therefore doesn't deserve what he has or our respect. What's right? I don't know...

Sorry you might have to be a professional football player to understand the above analogy, but it works across racial lines as you'll see in a minute.

Everybody likes a man that earns his own way and doesn't seek advantage through some idealistically concocted sense of entitlement. Michael Jordan has virtually everyone in his corner pulling for him and his success with the Bobcats. He came from almost nothing and through very hard work has become someone that, even with his humanistic faults is a hero to virtually all of us.

All that any of this reparation discussion does is drives a deeper divide between the races. Everybody that doesn't “have it all” could feel that they are being slighted or cheated by those that do “have it all”; that's not a color sentiment. It is actually my opinion that the political establishment is using this very condition to fuel their machine. It has to be obvious that the Dems have greatly benefited from the racial equation as of late. The Pubs use it too, attacking the ACORNS and such, anything that might fire up their white base.

The problem isn't the average American, it's our lack of legitimate leadership. Those that lead us now, both black, white male or female want to subjugate you as Americans. Even Obama only pays lip service to the “greater good”.

Until recent decades it was almost impossible for some folks that were and are Americans to get a chance, but nowadays America has the Avenues for any man to make it big. It just takes a lot of very, very fuckin' hard work, dedication to your own cause as well as the cause of those helping you (your employees). I mentioned Michael Jordan above, but what about President Obama, General Powell, Stanley O'Neil or and Kenneth Chenault; and while we're at it how about a black female or two, Paula Madison or Secretary Rice.

All of the above EARNED their way to the top, just like the majority of white Americans have had too do. And when they have gotten to their personal and professional top they belong there and are treated as such. Is it easy? Hell no, it never has been, did they have to work harder then others, I suspect so. But I relish the challenges of my days and when I succeed, damn does it feel good. I suggest we cease all this discussion of entitlement and go out and work, and claw our ways to where ever it is we want to be. I'll respect any man or woman that has earned it and damn anyone that says that they only achieved greatness because of some misguided reparation or entitlement program.

If a man wants the respect of those he would call his peers he must earn it, if he just wants a free ride he can kiss my ass. So get out there and get to work, the future is yours if you want it bad enough.




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:44:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

Jerry Jones built an Empire for the most part on his own, Mike Brown had one handed to him. People respect Jerry and all his ego-eccentric ways because he earned his own way. Mike does things a bit less than orthodox and people chastise the shit out of him, imply he had it all given to him and he therefore doesn't deserve what he has or our respect. What's right? I don't know...


A better question might be who the fuck cares (besides football junkies)?
Give me a fucking break Jerry Jones built an empire on his own?
He is a university graduate,frat boy (kapa sigma) oil zillionaire.
How is that on his own?




Sorry you might have to be a professional football player to understand the above analogy, but it works across racial lines as you'll see in a minute.


Yeh right

Everybody likes a man that earns his own way and doesn't seek advantage through some idealistically concocted sense of entitlement. Michael Jordan has virtually everyone in his corner pulling for him and his success with the Bobcats. He came from almost nothing and through very hard work has become someone that, even with his humanistic faults is a hero to virtually all of us.


Of course there is his unique talent that no amount of hard work will replace

All that any of this reparation discussion does is drives a deeper divide between the races. Everybody that doesn't “have it all” could feel that they are being slighted or cheated by those that do “have it all”;


Well this discussion is not about "everybody" it is about a subset of everybody that the rest of the set of everybody took advantage of.



that's not a color sentiment. It is actually my opinion that the political establishment is using this very condition to fuel their machine. It has to be obvious that the Dems have greatly benefited from the racial equation as of late. The Pubs use it too, attacking the ACORNS and such, anything that might fire up their white base.

My god you have a firm grasp of the obvious

The problem isn't the average American, it's our lack of legitimate leadership. Those that lead us now, both black, white male or female want to subjugate you as Americans. Even Obama only pays lip service to the “greater good”.


And this was different when?



Until recent decades it was almost impossible for some folks that were and are Americans to get a chance,

RockefellerCarnagie,Swift,Westinghouse[8|]





but nowadays America has the Avenues for any man to make it big. It just takes a lot of very, very fuckin' hard work,


Bill Gates worked hard?
Ted Turner worked hard?
ADM worked hard?
Cargill worked hard?
Horatio Alger plays well in the fourth grade but in the real world it is contacts and colusion.





dedication to your own cause as well as the cause of those helping you (your employees). I mentioned Michael Jordan above, but what about President Obama, General Powell, Stanley O'Neil or and Kenneth Chenault; and while we're at it how about a black female or two, Paula Madison or Secretary Rice.

All of the above EARNED their way to the top,


ROFLMAO
Gawd I just love your hutzpa lumping someone like Mike with a punk like chenault


http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2010/03/what-did-ken-chenault-do-to-earn-796-million.html





just like the majority of white Americans have had too do. And when they have gotten to their personal and professional top they belong there and are treated as such. Is it easy?


If you are connected it is a piece of cake....look at your buddy kenny (the shark) chenault.



Hell no, it never has been, did they have to work harder then others, I suspect so.


Didn't kenny the shark prep at Andover before he matriculated at Harvard....(kenny was a poor underpriviledged black kid from Long Island)




But I relish the challenges of my days and when I succeed, damn does it feel good. I suggest we cease all this discussion of entitlement and go out and work, and claw our ways to where ever it is we want to be.

You don't seem to have any problem taking advantage of your entitlements but you don't want others to have the same power?
How come that am???????




I'll respect any man or woman that has earned it and damn anyone that says that they only achieved greatness because of some misguided reparation or entitlement program.



Everyone who has achieved true greatness has done so with the help of those around them and those who came before them. Your mindset of the lone pioneer carving out an empire with nothing but his bare hands is nothing but a figment of your imagination.

If a man wants the respect of those he would call his peers he must earn it, if he just wants a free ride he can kiss my ass.

The free ride is ok for your ass but no one else????
Why come???



So get out there and get to work, the future is yours if you want it bad enough.

Fuck it I am retired[;)]






thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:50:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
My point was:
what is your point?


Fair question, I consider accurate data as opposed to inaccurate generalizations to be an important foundation for any debate. That was my one and only point, Silence8 was spewing bullshit and I called him on that.




While your data was acurate it was incomplete thus giving a less than accurate picture of the inmate population. This in turn begs the question of why did you intentionally misrepresent the data?
When the full data set was brought to your attention you respond with [8|]
Thus you see my position.




Louve00 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:18:05 AM)

I am not going to get into this debate here.  I stated my opinions on it way back on the first page.  But Bull's post about earning things and what all people can do brought up a point that reminded me of something. 

Years ago I was working in a hospital as a respiratory therapist.  There was a Chinese man (a respiratory therapist also) who worked in my department on the night shift.  This guy worked nights in respiratory at the hospital, and by day he owned his own business in real estate.  I asked him once what gave him the desire to have a successful job at night (which paid pretty damn good and even better with the night differential pay) and also dedicate himself to his own real estate business. 

His response was when he was living over in China, the people of China had limited information about their gov't and aside from that did not always have the right to work in any field they wanted to.  He said when he came to America, found out as much about the gov't as he did and that the sky was the limit on what he could do, he wondered why all Americans didn't seize that opportunity.

His wonder was a good one.  His race didn't stop him for success, despite the fact that english was not his first language and he was not always easy to understand and didn't always understand American wit and sarcasm (I laughed my ass off when he told me he tried to put an oxygen mask on a drunk man and the man refused and his response to that was laughter and he added..."he must be a bare head" (he meant skin head! lol)

But it rang home obviously to me that opportunity is there for the grabbing.  Do you want to grab it, or do you want to blame someone for you not grabbing it.  Its a choice we all are entitled to make.  Looking at the number of black politicians, along with the number of sucessful black, jewish, chinese and whatever else race I look at, the sky is limitless for all of us if we want to take the time to make it ours.  Of course, you could very well face prejudice, if you aren't lilly white and a part of the American 'norm'.  But its your personal reaction to that prejudice that will keep you down or not.

My husband is black.  I detest racial prejudice...or any prejudice.  But sometimes we shirk accountability in the name of prejudice.  [sm=2cents.gif]




xBullx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:25:47 AM)

As intelligent as you can appear at times, your zest to find excuses and lay the blame, facilitate apathy, along with your eagerness to advance self promotion and simply debate a point to discover personal entertainment leaves your responses less than impressive, at least to me.

So take your next shot, it's.....................expected.




xBullx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:59:31 AM)


Thanks for actually seeing my point.

I know things aren't perfect or even fair as some would like, but to imply the system is junk is ridiculous.




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 9:09:11 AM)

quote:

But it rang home obviously to me that opportunity is there for the grabbing. Do you want to grab it, or do you want to blame someone for you not grabbing it. Its a choice we all are entitled to make. Looking at the number of black politicians, along with the number of sucessful black, jewish, chinese and whatever else race I look at, the sky is limitless for all of us if we want to take the time to make it ours. Of course, you could very well face prejudice, if you aren't lilly white and a part of the American 'norm'. But its your personal reaction to that prejudice that will keep you down or not.



If this were true then all ethnicities in our country would show success related to their porportion in the general population...clearly they do not.




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 9:12:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

As intelligent as you can appear at times, your zest to find excuses and lay the blame, facilitate apathy, along with your eagerness to advance self promotion and simply debate a point to discover personal entertainment leaves your responses less than impressive, at least to me.

So take your next shot, it's.....................expected.


I make reasoned responses to all of your points seeking to draw you into discussion and you take the opportunity to make a personal attack on me instead of actually addressing the discussion at hand. Then you challange me to respond in kind.
Now if you want to have a discussion I am all for it but if you just want to engage in personal attacks please go back to gor where that sort of thing is expected.






xBullx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 9:38:24 AM)

Here, I found some time so I went back and addressed your comments...

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


A better question might be who the fuck cares (besides football junkies)?
Give me a fucking break Jerry Jones built an empire on his own?
He is a university graduate,frat boy (kapa sigma) oil zillionaire.
How is that on his own?




Well it was simply an analogy. I assume some will care, if you don't why bother...

Jones built his own oil and gas empire. And while he might have been afforded an education, so are many others that apply themselves, no matter the race.

Apart from that he had to buy the Cowboys, Mike was "given" the Bengals. I suppose that fact is lost on the entitlement crowd.

quote:



Yeh right



I should have said that you might have to be a football "fan" to get that analogy.

quote:



Of course there is his unique talent that no amount of hard work will replace



So are you saying fuck the man with talent? That removes his color? I also recall them saying Jordan wasn't the man he ended up being in college and the pros on talent alone, he worked his ass off. As for me, I like Mike...

quote:



Well this discussion is not about "everybody" it is about a subset of everybody that the rest of the set of everybody took advantage of.



Well if you were out in the world at work you might actually hear those everybodies that feel they are taken advantage of. Or do they not count because they aren't black?


quote:



My god you have a firm grasp of the obvious



Thank you!

quote:




RockefellerCarnagie,Swift,Westinghouse[8|]







Your discontenet for the elite is obvious, but simply hating someone fixes nothing.

quote:




Bill Gates worked hard?
Ted Turner worked hard?
ADM worked hard?
Cargill worked hard?
Horatio Alger plays well in the fourth grade but in the real world it is contacts and colusion.





And this list represents all of America or just the people you blame your contempt on?

quote:



ROFLMAO
Gawd I just love your hutzpa lumping someone like Mike with a punk like chenault


http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2010/03/what-did-ken-chenault-do-to-earn-796-million.html



So now not only does he have to be black, he has to be someone you approve of?...

quote:



If you are connected it is a piece of cake....look at your buddy kenny (the shark) chenault.



Again your point is that he is not afford opportunity because he's black or he is a rotten mother fucker?

Hell no, it never has been, did they have to work harder then others, I suspect so.

quote:



Didn't kenny the shark prep at Andover before he matriculated at Harvard....(kenny was a poor underpriviledged black kid from Long Island)



I suspect my response to this further railing would be as redundent as your rant.

quote:



You don't seem to have any problem taking advantage of your entitlements but you don't want others to have the same power?
How come that am???????




Your entitlement tirade was pointless last time we had it and it is again...

Entitlements promote apathy and stagnate growth. My opinion you can go where you want.


quote:



Everyone who has achieved true greatness has done so with the help of those around them and those who came before them. Your mindset of the lone pioneer carving out an empire with nothing but his bare hands is nothing but a figment of your imagination.



You can believe that if you want, I see otherwise. But I believe I also made the point that you should remember those that got you to the place you are.

quote:



The free ride is ok for your ass but no one else????
Why come???






There's been nothing free about my ride, and you better have facts before you talk out your ass on that subject.

quote:



Fuck it I am retired[;)]




Well that explains alot about your apathy...




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