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Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 12:06:22 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		I had a fuckin blast at Beyond Leather here in Ft. Lauderdale this last weekend and anyone else who made it will also be able to say the same thing. One aspect of the event that really stuck out for me was Hardy Haberman's keynote speech on "Community".

The theme was that the word "commune" as in the verb not the noun, means to congregate and communicate as a community. With the advent of the internet communication comes to us in a matter of seconds. Almost literally at light speed (when there aren't any 504 server errors). But "communication does not create a community". Just because we have forums and message boards and instant messaging and "sexting"(!) doesn't mean that this is all a "community". Community comes from knowing what people look like (oh my God!) above their neck line. Community comes from (God forbid) knowing people's real names. Community is the sense of knowing and being able to trust who someone is (even if you can't trust that person...only who they are consistently).

Community is not communication.

I found that this theme (because I am paraphrasing) really rung true for me. Attending "fossil hour" with Hardy Haberman, John Warren, Caro, Master Ces, Mark Frazier, and Ms. Susan was enlightening. We were allowed to ask questions of those who have been in this Community for more than 25 years and (as Caro put it) not AOL or dog years. I was given the chance to ask the last question and I think it brings up part of why some of us agree with Hardy and feel the way he does in a very real sense. My question was this:

"You all have 'Leather resumes' that go on for two days. They describe your accomplishments, achievements, and activities within this community. All of us experience defining moments in our lives. These moments may tell us who we are, what we want to do, who we don't want to be, or otherwise give us direction. What has been a defining moment for you that is not listed on your 'Leather resume'?"

To which Caro responded, "Who the fuck invited her?" And we all laughed. However, the sobering answer was each individuals' experience with AIDS and its impact on the Leather Community. As several of panel were brought to tears with their own stories and how their lives were touched by AIDS in the 1980'2 and 1990's, I was reminded that communication and online friends aren't what took care of our dieing brothers on their death beds, these things didn't happen because we typed away behind a computer screen. These individuals were cared and loved for by people who shared holiday meals with one another, who knew each others phone numbers, legal names, and addresses, and even if someone they physically knew wasn't there during such trying times, they did know each others faces.

"You cannot teach love, that kind of love from behind a computer screen," Caro finished. This love, the love of men like Fernando the Magical, can't be shared by typing some text across the world wide web.

Communication is not "Community".

Please consider reading "An AIDS Tale": http://fetlife.com/users/16620/posts/228399 to understand more about the love that Caro spoke of.

Discuss, comment, flame, whatever. I just wanted to share.

In Leather,

boi


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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 12:30:41 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you, BoiJen.  Beautiful post.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 12:44:54 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		i can totally relate to how the leather community has bonded and banded together. they have lost friends and lovers and they are a close nit community and thats totally awesome.

but i have to disagree.  there is community here.

i have some close friends on here and we have shared good and bad, we've bolstered each other up, shared on a deep level.  i know that there are people on here i could meet tomorrow and we would just pick it up straight away.

one day i hope to hug wisdomtogive and never let her go.  lushy is another one and so many others i just feel 'connected' to that i just have never found anywhere else.

i see the regulars post and i smile as i read what they write,  i think of them there, sharing their often really private thoughts.  i find myself wondering how people are doing.  i notice someone hasnt posted for a while and i hope theyre having fun.

i know people say this isnt a community but it is to me.  the same people come back over and over, bantering, teasing, rowing, disagreeing - but we keep coming back because it has a feel to it that no other place like this has.

i have met people from here and made lasting friendships, i know that others have too. its a meeting place of minds and thoughts, ideas and private things you could never share anywhere else.

dismissing this place because we cant all sit in the same room at the same time is taking a somewhat superior attitude in my view.  but for them to say 'we're real' and anyone who isnt physically in the same room is kidding themselves is a bit ellitest.

community is a strange thing.  i live in an area where there are lots of little villages dotted about.  people dont communicate with each other on any regular basis, they might bump into each other while walking the dog or on a sunday at church, there is no thriving, dedicated get together mentallity going on, but there is community.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 1:00:06 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		From "an AIDS Tale"....

..."
The US military began mandatory HIV testing for all enlisted men and women and paranoia grew. One poll reported that 72% of Americans favored mandatory HIV testing and 50% favored a quarantine of those infected, and 15% want those who are HIV positive to be tattooed for identification.
Fear was palpable. Fear was pervasive. It was everywhere, and it caused some to think the unthinkable: Quarantine “them” in camps. Tattoo “them.” History taught us what would be the next step.
The Cuntessa cried. She cried for herself, and she cried for "them"...."


I cannot help but to think that if the internet were the means of communication then as it is today, that those spouting "this is a community, you elitist!" would be amongst those in favor of internment camps and tattooing. And because of that I will continue to say...."no, this is not a 'community'."
boi


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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 1:26:05 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

From "an AIDS Tale"....

..."
The US military began mandatory HIV testing for all enlisted men and women and paranoia grew. One poll reported that 72% of Americans favored mandatory HIV testing and 50% favored a quarantine of those infected, and 15% want those who are HIV positive to be tattooed for identification.
Fear was palpable. Fear was pervasive. It was everywhere, and it caused some to think the unthinkable: Quarantine “them” in camps. Tattoo “them.” History taught us what would be the next step.
The Cuntessa cried. She cried for herself, and she cried for "them"...."


I cannot help but to think that if the internet were the means of communication then as it is today, that those spouting "this is a community, you elitist!" would be amongst those in favor of internment camps and tattooing. And because of that I will continue to say...."no, this is not a 'community'."
boi



as a health care proffessional i have treated people with symptomatic complications caused by HIV.  ive shared some pretty amazing moments with some and ive often been amazed by the courage in people when it all gets seriously shitty.

to suggest that i would tattoo people is so phucking reprehensible im actually stunned at youre arrogance and peevishness.  you postulate a theory on a discussion board and think that HIV will bludgeon us all to agree with you.  what an ignorant cow you are to use HIV in such a way.  there are many people with HIV who have no damn community real or otherwise.

i will continue to say this is a community for me and you may continue with youre childish slandering.  you postulate something for discussion and then attempt to bully anyone who doesnt agree.

ellitism is all about looking down youre nose at anyone who doesnt measure up to what you have or think you have - you made the leap to HIV, i was refferring to the leather community - like i said earlier - grow the fuck up.



< Message edited by lally2 -- 4/27/2010 1:51:21 PM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to BoiJen)
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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 1:47:11 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Per Websters, this is a community.

Main Entry: com·mu·ni·ty Pronunciation: \kə-ˈmyü-nə-tē\Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural com·mu·ni·tiesUsage: often attributive Etymology: Middle English comunete, from Anglo-French communité, from Latin communitat-, communitas, from communisDate: 14th century 1 : a unified body of individuals: as a : state, commonwealth b : the people with common interests living in a particular area; broadly : the area itself <the problems of a large community> c : an interacting population of various kinds of individuals (as species) in a common location d : a group of people with a common characteristic or interest living together within a larger society <a community of retired persons> e : a group linked by a common policy f : a body of persons or nations having a common history or common social, economic, and political interests <the international community> g : a body of persons of common and especially professional interests scattered through a larger society <the academic community>
2 : society at large
3 a : joint ownership or participation <community of goods> b : common character : likeness <community of interests> c : social activity : fellowship d : a social state or condition

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/27/2010 1:48:06 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 1:53:57 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		I believe that the online "communities" meet the very barest technical definition. And I won't argue that they can provide SOME of the things that a "meatspace" community can provide.

Do ALL "real life" communities provide a sense of whatever it is people need to feel they belong? No. They don't. However, there is no way a VIRTUAL space can completely replace realtime. It can tide you over.. it can put a bandaid on the problem.. it can keep you from starving to ~death~, metaphorically, but you will never have the same richness of life you can create in realtime.

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:00:46 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I cannot help but to think that if the internet were the means of communication then as it is today, that those spouting "this is a community, you elitist!" would be amongst those in favor of internment camps and tattooing. And because of that I will continue to say...."no, this is not a 'community'."
boi

BoiJen: I agree with your first post-to me this does not feel like a community. If you can't/won't/don't make chicken soup for a person when they are ill (hey, my examples are Jewish, deal with it), or sit shiva with them when they are bereaved, or have in-jokes with their children, then they are not of your community.

But the part above that I've quoted? Bullshit, and indefensibly cruel bullshit at that. How can you presume to tell people you barely know (by your own admission-they aren't a part of any community with you, remember?) that they would react to the suffering of other communities by turning into *Nazis*?

Normally I think your posts are extremely well thought out and I value your opinion, even if I don't always agree with you, but this is total rubbish.


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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:00:47 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Boi?... you know I love you like a a gay sister!

Considering the number of folks who have met here and other places and have gone on to have fabulous relationships. I find the statement.
"You cannot teach love, that kind of love from behind a computer screen"  A bit...extreme.

I am not a huge fan of online relationships, but to reject them out of hand is wrong.

To deny the fact that some folks take those relationships all the way is also wrong.

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:05:13 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I do not, and never will, advocate living life online. I am quite specific in telling anyone that contacts me that I will not even attempt an online M/s relationship. I also do not believe a person can become an expert in an action, by only reading about said action.

However, for a person to spout off that there is no common ground via the net, no sense of any sort of relationship between people AT ALL, is utter bullshit.

Personally I advocate using ALL methods of communication in life to have a richer, more informed outlook on life in general.

As an example...... I have family spread all over the country and good friends spread all over the world. My family keeps in touch via Facebook, text messaging, and occasional phone calls. We sometimes do not see one another for years at a time. This makes us no less a family. It only gives us additional layers of contact. Helps us keep better informed about one another.

As a woman with a rich and multi-faceted life, I feel I am part of quite a few 'communities'. Some more fulfilling than others. Just because some make me feel better or are more important to me, does not invalidate the others.

There is no reason to think that just because people are using this website that they have any less rich a life than the OP. It may not mirror the OP's life, but it shouldn't.....it is theirs.

I am fully aware that there are people who's only BDSM, M/s, D/s, experience is in some creepy (to me) online fantasy world. For me, and my life, that would never work. To ME, for MY LIFE, it is not 'real enough'. But to say that those people do not exist, which is how the OP read, is bullshit. They feel a sense of community, have their type of relationships, and that is all that is required to fit the definition.

I did want to add one thing........the only thing that has ever concerned me in a vague, it doesn't really affect me, way.......is the feeling that there are many people that make their on-line communities/relationships more important in their lives than they probably should be. There are a lot of great people here but to become more emotionally attached, for this to be 'more real' than a person's actual physical life and those in it.........that is the creepy, they need professional mental health ASAP, kind of thing. To me.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/27/2010 2:13:06 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to bondmaid123)
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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:10:03 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		I, too, keep in touch with my extremely widely scattered family via things like Facebook and email and the like. however, we were family FIRST, and we use the internet to enhance an existing bond.

If the bond is *only* online, I think it's pretty tenuous. Can online "communities" be a springboard that allow people to find like minded individuals? Yep. It can, and hopefully they then move to a deeper level. I mean, I have friends who I originally came into contact with via the internet. We then eventually talked on the phone... made plans to meet in person.. etc.

Online can be a useful tool. But if it's ALL you have (which is what I read in the OP...)... well.. there is something sad about that.

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:14:38 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think we are reading the OP from two vastly different perspectives.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:15:01 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

But to say that those people do not exist, which is how the OP read, is bullshit.
I disagree.

I'm someone with a decidedly unromantic view of community (or, at least, unromantic compared to your average Brit), perhaps because I've always been surrounded by it. For me, a community is a group of people who are there when you need them, as long as you do the same for them.

So you spend Friday nights with people. You post their letters for them if they can't make it to the postbox. You paint the odd room. You lend someone a twenty when their wallet is piked, and you keep a spare key in your house for when their kids lose theirs. You share lifts to school.

Community is for the mundane stuff. None of the above is possible over the internet.

Friendships-intense and true and valid ones? Yes. Community? No.

Edited 'cause I forgot to add the actual point: that's how I read the OP.


< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 4/27/2010 2:16:46 PM >

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:16:01 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps you are reading a different definition of the word than I am.

The reason I call bullshit is that the OP is trying to use her narrow and incomplete view of the definition of the word to define it for everyone else. Saying that if everyone else does not conform to HER personal point of view, which is not the factual point of view, then they are less a person, that their view of their community is not real.

In the definition of the word........by the very nature of her posting here......she is participating in a community. It may not be her most valuable community, the one that most enriches her life, but by the factual definition of the word, it is still a community.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/27/2010 2:19:58 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:17:08 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Look ..... I  don't even like the idea of a community. I don't believe it exists except in the broadest terms.

Just because there is a shared interest does not make the people interesting. Yes I have some friends who participate in the "lifestyle" both here and in real life.

Those folks are My friends....not My community

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:18:01 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Perhaps you are reading a different definition of the word than I am.
Perhaps, but we'd have to ask Jen which of the two she meant.


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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:21:34 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		All I am saying, without any personal emotional attachment what so ever, is that just because something is not fulfilling to one person, does not mean it does not exist...........with the definition the dictionary gives........to other people.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:22:08 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		I find it very interesting, the development of this thread.

The topic starts with "communication is not community". "Community" is not solely based on communication and is widely faceted in the individual relationships people form through community. How individuals take "complete strangers who communicate with each other on the internet only and couldn't point each other out on the street on any given day is not a 'community'" to "because you communicate with people you have known your entire life through the internet instead of sitting down with one another every day means you're not 'real enough'", I don't know.

What we have here happens to be a fast track of editorial (at best) notes between one another. Meaning that what was seen in the 1980's around the AIDS epidemic and outbreak really does show a side of humanity and what it takes to truly be a Community. To ignore the fact that communication did result in polls in the 1980's stating that some individuals favored internment camps and tattooing because it's a harsh and cruel reality doesn't make it less of a reality. AIDS is the example...the social reaction is a symptom...it's not the problem.

More and more people substitute individual interaction for facebook and text messaging and still want to call these people they don't even know their "friends" and their "community". I don't know about you, but if I can't get some Matzo ball soup when I'm sick from someone in what I call my community (to reference the nature of serving a Jewish Woman lol) then I'm gonna guess that I'm not really part of that "community".

Communicating with your family using these tools is by no means the target of the topic. To take the topic to that extreme is just blindly ignoring the specific information given in favor of finding a "common enemy" to attack.

boi

BTW...I am participating in a form of communication in a certain medium. Forums do not a community make.


< Message edited by BoiJen -- 4/27/2010 2:24:49 PM >

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:23:31 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Perhaps you are reading a different definition of the word than I am.
Perhaps, but we'd have to ask Jen which of the two she meant.


I don't know... I think the topic will bear broadening to discuss community at large, and doesn't need to be kept so narrow as to only allow a "yes or no" voting on the subject. :P

< Message edited by bondmaid123 -- 4/27/2010 2:24:42 PM >

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RE: Communication does not create "Community" - 4/27/2010 2:24:29 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		community can be achieved by phone. im a busy single working mum, i keep in touch with most of my friends by phone, sometimes i get the chance to meet up with them.  but often its just a chat on the phone or keeping up by texting.  im still there for them and theyre still there for me, no soup exchanged ever.

by the same token ive been 'there' for friends who live miles and miles away, the other side of the world in a way that no one else could have been at the time.

there are many different types of community but one main categorisation - sharing, supporting, caring and giving it straight when its needed.  the internet provides that for people who cant be physically together.  im talking friends here mostly.  people ive connected with on here who live in the states who i KNOW ill see one day.  those friendships were created through this place and the sense of community and commonality it provides.  people i would never have known otherwise.

hell people are meeting people from the internet all the time.  its one of the main methods of meeting people, taken off from dating agencies.

its wrong to knock a thing that has brought many many people together.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 20
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