RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID

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Musicmystery -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:29:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The trade off, of course, is much higher prices for goods. Given the success of Wal-Mart and other discount retailers, I doubt Americans are willing to pay what it would cost to "let the market" fix this. Truth is--this IS the market's solution. Much higher consumer prices would also slow the economy--depressing the job market. So the only solution or path for our country is to maintain a system in which we keep buying cheap, low-quality Chinese junk? And to keep the consumer junk cheap, we have to bring in unlimited foreign workers who will keep wages low and unemployment high? So that's what our great country has been reduced to? That fatalism has been fed to us from the top of the corporate empire, and it's turning us into slaves. You can shoot at it all you want. I didn't recommend it--I pointed out that this is the situation. Americans want it both ways--cheap goods AND high labor costs. When that doesn't work, they push for protectionism--expensive goods and high labor costs at the cost of productivity. But people also don't want to hear what DOES work. We live on a globe. It's how things are. We have to address situations globally if we want them to work. We don't care about slavery--we just don't want to be the slaves. As long as that's the condition, this is what we'll get. In the shorter term, continuing to increase exports helps us as labor and as an economy. "Made in America" is far more prevalent than people realize, but every time I share figures, we just get whining about global trade, denying the numbers, and crying to shut our borders, which would kill a third of our economy and throw millions out of work. Even more insane is what YBD proposed, inflation. So we double wages, and double prices. What have we done? Two things. You can't buy anymore than you can now---and your savings are now cut in half. Dumb, dumb move. Amid your righteous protest, got any real solutions?

shannie -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:31:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Shannie, this "global economy" doesn't value "labor" anymore! And it doesn't matter what "type" of labor either! I imagine countries like China and India graduate professions like Accountants, Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Nurses, Doctors and Managers by the hundreds of thousands every year. Maybe millions! What happens to the law of supply and demand if Western countries are the "beneficiaries" of just ten percent of that? If I'm a Manager and I'm looking to hire Accountants and only two or three apply for the job I'm going to pay what is standard for Accountants, these days anywhere from $60- 80K entry level. If I have 50 Accountants lined up in the waiting room I'm going to offer considerably less. The middle class is indeed under attack in this country. They're not producing US-qualified lawyers in China, yet. smiles...

DarkSteven -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Currently, to get hired as an engineer, I must produce my SSN, my birth certificate, and a DL. As required by law. I fail to see why some national identity card will work when the above is already required by law. If you cannot make the current program work, don't come to me telling me that another program will. Are those requirements because you would be working as an engineer? I have not had a job in quite some time but all they ever required was a SS number. Yeah, Thompson, that's the way it used to be. For a professional job nowadays (and I assume some nonprofessional ones), the above is required. As well as a drug test and in some cases a credit check.

shannie -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:37:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery We live on a globe. It's how things are. We have to address situations globally if we want them to work. This "meme" has been planted in the American consciousness in the last five years. Now I hear my fellow man repeating it as if it was the 11th Commandment.

popeye1250 -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The trade off, of course, is much higher prices for goods. Given the success of Wal-Mart and other discount retailers, I doubt Americans are willing to pay what it would cost to "let the market" fix this. Truth is--this IS the market's solution. Much higher consumer prices would also slow the economy--depressing the job market. So the only solution or path for our country is to maintain a system in which we keep buying cheap, low-quality Chinese junk? And to keep the consumer junk cheap, we have to bring in unlimited foreign workers who will keep wages low and unemployment high? So that's what our great country has been reduced to? That fatalism has been fed to us from the top of the corporate empire, and it's turning us into slaves. You can shoot at it all you want. I didn't recommend it--I pointed out that this is the situation. Americans want it both ways--cheap goods AND high labor costs. When that doesn't work, they push for protectionism--expensive goods and high labor costs at the cost of productivity. But people also don't want to hear what DOES work. We live on a globe. It's how things are. We have to address situations globally if we want them to work. We don't care about slavery--we just don't want to be the slaves. As long as that's the condition, this is what we'll get. In the shorter term, continuing to increase exports helps us as labor and as an economy. "Made in America" is far more prevalent than people realize, but every time I share figures, we just get whining about global trade, denying the numbers, and crying to shut our borders, which would kill a third of our economy and throw millions out of work. Even more insane is what YBD proposed, inflation. So we double wages, and double prices. What have we done? Two things. You can't buy anymore than you can now---and your savings are now cut in half. Dumb, dumb move. Amid your righteous protest, got any real solutions? Music, I'm an American and I don't want it both ways. I want to be able to buy clothing and vehicles that's made in the USA. I'm not a "consumer" in that I consume a lot of goods. I buy what I "need" and that's all. To hear some people talk you'd think people were going into stores buying ten pairs of pants and shirts at a clip! Choice is important to me to be able to buy things that are made in the USA. I've looked at a lot of stuff and put it back on the rack when I see it's not made here. I grew up in the 50's and 60's and we didn't have a lot of "stuff" like today and it didn't bother us! Anytime I hear someone in the govt say that "they're concerned about the consumer" I don't really think they're "concerned about the consumer." I think they may be "concerned" about getting another "Free Trade" Bill through which will hurt the consumer! If we all end up making $8 an hour we won't be doing a lot of "consuming" will we? Like Mark Twain said, "We can't all make a living by taking in each other's wash."

Musicmystery -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:44:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery We live on a globe. It's how things are. We have to address situations globally if we want them to work. This "meme" has been planted in the American consciousness in the last five years. Now I hear my fellow man repeating it as if it was the 11th Commandment. Like I said, shoot at it all you want. Still waiting for your solutions. Anyone can howl.

Musicmystery -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:45:27 PM)
popeye, I don't disagree. But this still leaves us where we are.

dcnovice -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:48:58 PM)
FR Apologies if this has been covered already, but what's so bad about a national ID?

popeye1250 -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:55:02 PM)
Music, yup, "we're where we are" because of big business infesting itself into our govt. Look at all the laws which benefit business and those rediculous "free-trade" deals which are really "out-sourcing deals" in disguise! As for a "solution" when do we start shooting a bunch of CEO's? That'd be less painfull than having the people revolt for a year or so and everything descending into anarchy. Just tossing a few ideas out there![:D]

Musicmystery -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 7:57:12 PM)
quote: yup, "we're where we are" because of big business infesting itself into our govt. And now the Supreme Court has made sure that will happen even more.

shannie -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:04:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Apologies if this has been covered already, but what's so bad about a national ID? It offends the spirit of autonomy, privacy, individualism (traits many of us consider uniquely American) -- especially when no greater interest will be served by it. Not to mention the expansion of the role of federal government. The federal government will issue a document to every American citizen, which they must possess in order to ... simply .... work. Wow, it's something our grandparents couldn't have imagined.

shannie -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:06:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 As for a "solution" when do we start shooting a bunch of CEO's? That'd be less painfull than having the people revolt for a year or so and everything descending into anarchy. Just tossing a few ideas out there![:D] Touche.

popeye1250 -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:08:58 PM)
Yup, I own plenty of firearms and plenty of ammo, all flavors. And when food runs low I know where all the lefties in the neighborhood who don't own guns live![:D] ("Can I borrow a cup of sugar?")[:D][:D][:D] (If this place ever catches fire.....!!!) You wouldn't believe some of the weapons that people own these days! What's happening is that those big cos. don't see that they're "canibalizing" their own markets. People who make $15 an hour don't buy much beyond subsistance. They don't hire Accountants, Lawyers, and a lot of others and they don't buy a lot of goods and services like they would if they were making $40-$60 an hour. Jim Cramer said last year; "How DARE people who make $500k per year say that Autoworkers who make $70k per year are "overpaid!"

Musicmystery -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:14:04 PM)
I agree. Too few get that, though. Henry Ford proved it with his $5/day, 20% over the market. It was so successful, next year, he did $6/day. AND his workers could (and did) buy cars. Or in the 20th century--management guru Peter Drucker kept saying his entire career that "labor is a resource, not a cost." But that takes guts and long term thinking--in a pinch, businesses turn to short term cost cutting, and labor is their highest expense.

popeye1250 -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:14:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Apologies if this has been covered already, but what's so bad about a national ID? It offends the spirit of autonomy, privacy, individualism (traits many of us consider uniquely American) -- especially when no greater interest will be served by it. Not to mention the expansion of the role of federal government. The federal government will issue a document to every American citizen, which they must possess in order to ... simply .... work. Wow, it's something our grandparents couldn't have imagined. Shannie, our govt. is bobbing and weaving and trying to do ANYTHING except enforce our immigration laws. Why they are doing this I don't know! But, people like you understand the importance of enforcing our laws no matter who it ,...ahem,..."offends!"

Musicmystery -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:15:11 PM)
quote: Why they are doing this I don't know! Because it would cost money. A lot of money.

popeye1250 -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (4/30/2010 8:19:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I agree. Too few get that, though. Henry Ford proved it with his $5/day, 20% over the market. It was so successful, next year, he did $6/day. AND his workers could (and did) buy cars. Or in the 20th century--management guru Peter Drucker kept saying his entire career that "labor is a resource, not a cost." But that takes guts and long term thinking--in a pinch, businesses turn to short term cost cutting, and labor is their highest expense. Music, correct! I think it will take a ~Bone Jarring~ Depression to get things back on track. We're heading in that direction anyway with this tremendous govt. debt and trade imbalances! Ah! Those must have been the days eh? You're riding the rails in a Box Car when a railroad screw jumps in from above with a big club and you slice his throat open with a leftover whiskey bottle or Port bottle! The stuff of Steinbeck and Hemingway!

tazzygirl -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (5/1/2010 12:54:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Apologies if this has been covered already, but what's so bad about a national ID? It offends the spirit of autonomy, privacy, individualism (traits many of us consider uniquely American) -- especially when no greater interest will be served by it. Not to mention the expansion of the role of federal government. The federal government will issue a document to every American citizen, which they must possess in order to ... simply .... work. Wow, it's something our grandparents couldn't have imagined. Sounds like a social security number (card) and our grandparents had those.

thishereboi -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (5/1/2010 4:31:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Apologies if this has been covered already, but what's so bad about a national ID? It offends the spirit of autonomy, privacy, individualism (traits many of us consider uniquely American) -- especially when no greater interest will be served by it. Not to mention the expansion of the role of federal government. The federal government will issue a document to every American citizen, which they must possess in order to ... simply .... work. Wow, it's something our grandparents couldn't have imagined. Sounds like a social security number (card) and our grandparents had those. Yea, I was thinking the same thing. Every job I have gotten in the last 20 years (ok there were only 3 but still) has required a copy of my ss and my drivers license. Then they fill out the government form proving they actually checked the id to prove you were eligible to work here and kept the copies in your file. I have had to carry a dl in MI most of my life, I don't see what difference carrying a fed id would be.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: proposed immigration bill includes national ID (5/1/2010 5:13:53 AM)
quote: It offends the spirit of autonomy, privacy, individualism (traits many of us consider uniquely American)<snip> Really? Seriously? So out of this whole planet, "Americans" (a misnomer as America includes Canada) are the only ones who possess these traits? This whole idea that "Americans" are this special breed far above everyone else makes me nuts. The fact is that you are no better or worse than anyone else. That you have also exaggerated how often this National ID (probably no more than an SS card) would be required as well as complaining that your freedom will somehow be impinged on shows, at best, lack of knowledge.

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