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The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:06:14 PM   
Silence8


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This occurred to me last night right before hitting the sack, which seems to happen a lot, so I never get to sleep on time.

Thoughts? Does this ring true, at all?

If anything I might be too easy on the sadist, and too harsh on 'normal people'. Also, maybe I miss the essential relationship between the two, how normal and sadomasochistic sex exist as two sides of the same (arguably 'fucked-up') coin.

Sexual sadism, I think, represents a fundamental reversal of the standard modern objectification of the sexual partner. This standard objectification, that most individuals in modern society perform, entails using the sexual partner as a purely physical device from which to dissociate while mentally projecting one's living fantasies, whether of other women, men, or something else altogether. In this sense, sex merely extends masturbation from a solo act to a mutually solipsistic activity for two or more disconnected partners. In modern times this disconnection is of course reinstantiated in the distance of the condom's thickness. You masturbate inside of him or her, and this you call sex.

The objectification enacted by the sadist occurs much more ambiguously. In one sense, the sadist's joy demands that the tension he or she imposes categorically finds himself or himself the only possible agent of resolution; in this sense, one might argue that the sadist's imposed form of objectification exceeds that embodied in the standard sexual mode, that is, if we immediately relate objectification to one's position in the appearance of power structures. Yet we miss here the entire point. Not only does the sadist very consciously address the partner's role as an object -- and we can argue whether in this way the sadist contrasts with the norm -- most importantly, the sadist consciously and quite essentially produces his partner's failure as an object. That is to say, straightforwardly, that the sadist establishes his or her partner as an impossible object, or, rather, not an object at all. In the case of heterosexual sexual sadistic men, we arrive at what appears a rather unlikely and unexpected solution, the sadistic male suddenly representing an almost uncanny feminism where one would immediately expect the opposite, the most derivative misogyny.

What is more, the state of the mind that the sadist attempts to manifest in the sexual partner more often than not represents an engagement of his or her own state of mind displaced over time. So whereas the partner in the standard sexual mode serves an an empty symbolic conduit through which to pursue strictly external fantasy coordinates, (just as money serves as an empty conduit through which to activate labor value), the submissive partner in the sadomasochistic mode becomes the endpoint itself, the ultimate object Herself, that is to say, the mutual simultaneous means and ends for engaging the humanity of one's experience in its extremities, in the emotional force of impossible predicament in the face of impossibly boundless human will.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/1/2010 9:09:01 PM >
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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:18:19 PM   
dreamerdreaming


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OP, you are overthinking this, to say the least. If I were you, I'd stop overanalyzing and just enjoy!


Objectifying my slaveboy is yummy and fulfilling for us both. That's what matters.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:20:49 PM   
Arpig


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Being a sadist I opened this thread with some interest, thinking there might be something interesting...rather I find it nothing but incomprehensible amateur psycho-babble...it makes no sense whatsoever. I have no idea if you are right or wrong as I have no idea what you said.


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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:30:46 PM   
jbcurious


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I can't address your points regarding a Sadists psychology, as I don't have enough first hand experience to have formed any thoughts or opinions but I can address your comments on regular sex and start out by saying...

Wow, how jaded can you get? I've never had sex in the manner in which you describe...why be with someone if you have to imagine being with someone else?

In the vanilla world there is often comments about the difference between having sex and making love. If your description is what having sex is...then I guess I've been making love my whole sexual life.

Whether it's a one night stand or a ltr, I'm connected to my partner. It's about sharing sensation and pleasure with each other and if you're not keyed into their responses or responding to them... Then what's the point?

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:31:28 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Being a sadist I opened this thread with some interest, thinking there might be something interesting...rather I find it nothing but incomprehensible amateur psycho-babble...it makes no sense whatsoever. I have no idea if you are right or wrong as I have no idea what you said.



Again, to each his own. Find me a 'professional' analysis that trumps this one, and I'll read it, and then, naturally, try to trump it.

The critical idea, perhaps, is that in ordinary sex, objectification succeeds by design, whereas in sadomasochistic sex objectification fails by design.

I want to explore this dimension. And I'm hoping to get other intelligent opinions on the matter.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:35:25 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

I can't address your points regarding a Sadists psychology, as I don't have enough first hand experience to have formed any thoughts or opinions but I can address your comments on regular sex and start out by saying...

Wow, how jaded can you get? I've never had sex in the manner in which you describe...why be with someone if you have to imagine being with someone else?

In the vanilla world there is often comments about the difference between having sex and making love. If your description is what having sex is...then I guess I've been making love my whole sexual life.

Whether it's a one night stand or a ltr, I'm connected to my partner. It's about sharing sensation and pleasure with each other and if you're not keyed into their responses or responding to them... Then what's the point?


True, there's a lot of simplification involved. That's what thought and language are -- modes of simplification.

But I also am quite aware how unsuccessful marriages tend to be, this observation only strengthening my indictment, if that's indeed what it is. I might suggest otherwise.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 9:53:58 PM   
jbcurious


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Why would marriage to a "normal" person and marriage to a Sadist change the fact that somtimes life gets in the way of doing the yummy things we like doing to each other...in the form of stress, kids, work responsibility ect.

You're initial post doesn't address marriage, just the sexual act... So I'm failing to see what point you're trying to make.

< Message edited by jbcurious -- 5/1/2010 9:56:01 PM >


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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:07:10 PM   
Silence8


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Consider the endless tools of the sadomasochist... gags, hoods, ropes, full body latex suits... again and again the point is reducing human agency. But again and again the 'submissive' partner fails truly to become an object, or, rather, succeeds in maintaining his or her fundamental human (or at least animal) agency, whether through squirming, struggling, crying out, etc. -- this is a big part of the dynamic, I think, at least for many people.

The objectification isn't meant to succeed. In regular sex, all too often, the objectification does succeed.

I admit, though, that there's a whole 'two-sided coin' phenomenon occurring.

I dare even saying that the prototypical idea of the 'sex slave' exists as the polar opposite of the 'prostitute' -- I bet you didn't want to make this connection, but consider it -- two sides of the same problem of the representation of value! The former privately owned forever, the latter public for sale for the moment!

I said in another thread that the psychological precedes and consumes the logical! If this relation I've established remains difficult to understand, I think this difficulty reflects this same predominance of the psychological over the 'purely logical'.

The truth is never pure, pristine, and platonic. Rather, the truth is (so often) covered in blood, oil, and other bodily fluids.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:14:01 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Why would marriage to a "normal" person and marriage to a Sadist change the fact that somtimes life gets in the way of doing the yummy things we like doing to each other...in the form of stress, kids, work responsibility ect.

You're initial post doesn't address marriage, just the sexual act... So I'm failing to see what point you're trying to make.


I'm considering now whether the 'external fantasy' phenomenon that I've discussed occurs most often in long-term 'normal' relationships.

I think it does.

Also, I suspect it occurs when many men see prostitutes.

Maybe I've overstated the difference in the role of fantasy for normal versus sadomasochistic sex. But maybe not. It's not an easy topic -- that's why the language is apparently somewhat complicated. It's unavoidable.


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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:30:10 PM   
ResidentSadist


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When I saw the OP using some correct terms and concepts, it seemed like the point/counterpoint was going to be about objectification . . . then the train of thought seemed to get derailed.

If objectification was the point, then it is correct that not all sexual sadists objectify their consensual partners all the time. In fact, identifying with the masochist and humanizing them helps the empathy, the connection to their suffering. Heartless torture is dispassionate and more an extension and expression of domination than of sadism.

One aspect of my own sexual sadism is the masochists' consensual sacrifice. When I know that what I am doing for my pleasure causes pain to my partner, it becomes a measure and expression of their love and passion to suffer for my pleasure. This “love” warms my heart and fuels my passion to greater heights.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:30:52 PM   
Jeffff


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I dig the whimpering and tears.

I think it's erotic...... does it need to be more than that?

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:34:14 PM   
ResidentSadist


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Jeff,
I dig the whimpering and tears too. But I think it's romantic. . . except that one time in band camp. That was just erotic.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:39:40 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

When I saw the OP using some correct terms and concepts, it seemed like the point/counterpoint was going to be about objectification . . . then the train of thought seemed to get derailed.

If objectification was the point, then it is correct that not all sexual sadists objectify their consensual partners all the time. In fact, identifying with the masochist and humanizing them helps the empathy, the connection to their suffering. Heartless torture is dispassionate and more an extension and expression of domination than of sadism.

One aspect of my own sexual sadism is the masochists' consensual sacrifice. When I know that what I am doing for my pleasure causes pain to my partner, it becomes a measure and expression of their love and passion to suffer for my pleasure. This “love” warms my heart and fuels my passion to greater heights.


I guess the discussion is more about objectification as a subset of sexual sadism.

The sacrifice that you mention certainly forms a part of sexual sadism, 'less certainly' forms a part of objectification, though there are some counterexamples to this effect.

I'm not anti-love. Although I've been toying with the idea (short circuit, eh?) that love proper does not exist, because existence should be relegated to 'stupid things' like chairs, tables, and that people transcend these things. I'm on the fence, though. I don't know -- I'm a human, I reserve the right to change my opinions and theories on a whim.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:40:42 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I dig the whimpering and tears.

I think it's erotic...... does it need to be more than that?


Making it more than that doesn't make it any less.

If anything, it makes it more.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:48:29 PM   
Venalismihi


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I am a sadist. I have no equipment other than my nails and teeth [sharp objects] and my hands and feet [variable use, objects]. I love the muffled moaning and have never needed to use a gag in any situation. I do not like screamers or shouters; I love all the non-verbal, non-auditory expressions of pain and discomfort, safe in the knowledge that s/he is enjoying the interaction just as much as I am, otherwise, what would be the point?

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 10:54:11 PM   
pompeii


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As for the whimpering and tears ... I too don't have first-hand sadistic experience as I care too much for the recipient ... yet ... I wonder ... I wonder if the electric surge I feel in my loins when I twist a willing sub's nipples ... which evokes such a wondrous wince out of her ... or the spelling out of Shakespearean prose on her clit which elicits a similarly fantastic shudder throughout her body ... I wonder if that control ... that control of a person's strong feelings ... I wonder if that desire and enjoyment of control of their pain and pleasure ... is the initial embodiment of a slight dose of sub-clinical sadism.

I wonder ...

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 11:04:51 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venalismihi

I am a sadist. I have no equipment other than my nails and teeth [sharp objects] and my hands and feet [variable use, objects]. I love the muffled moaning and have never needed to use a gag in any situation. I do not like screamers or shouters; I love all the non-verbal, non-auditory expressions of pain and discomfort, safe in the knowledge that s/he is enjoying the interaction just as much as I am, otherwise, what would be the point?



Do you immobilize your partner, then?

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 11:29:45 PM   
jbcurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Why would marriage to a "normal" person and marriage to a Sadist change the fact that somtimes life gets in the way of doing the yummy things we like doing to each other...in the form of stress, kids, work responsibility ect.

You're initial post doesn't address marriage, just the sexual act... So I'm failing to see what point you're trying to make.


I'm considering now whether the 'external fantasy' phenomenon that I've discussed occurs most often in long-term 'normal' relationships.

I think it does.

Also, I suspect it occurs when many men see prostitutes.

Maybe I've overstated the difference in the role of fantasy for normal versus sadomasochistic sex. But maybe not. It's not an easy topic -- that's why the language is apparently somewhat complicated. It's unavoidable.




I have no problem comprehending the words you use...but your attempt to sound profound and phylisophical has just come across as vague. Additional posts have made things clearer...and I still think your stereotypical ideas of vanilla sex being nothing more than objectification and mutual masterbation to be way off base and very narrow minded.

_____________________________

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 11:35:05 PM   
Venalismihi


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I ask them to keep still. Note, I ask. If I have to tell, then all is lost. It is to be a mutual experience. They will know what I wish and will, I hope, comply.

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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 11:51:30 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Why would marriage to a "normal" person and marriage to a Sadist change the fact that somtimes life gets in the way of doing the yummy things we like doing to each other...in the form of stress, kids, work responsibility ect.

You're initial post doesn't address marriage, just the sexual act... So I'm failing to see what point you're trying to make.


I'm considering now whether the 'external fantasy' phenomenon that I've discussed occurs most often in long-term 'normal' relationships.

I think it does.

Also, I suspect it occurs when many men see prostitutes.

Maybe I've overstated the difference in the role of fantasy for normal versus sadomasochistic sex. But maybe not. It's not an easy topic -- that's why the language is apparently somewhat complicated. It's unavoidable.



I have no problem comprehending the words you use...but your attempt to sound profound and phylisophical has just come across as vague. Additional posts have made things clearer...and I still think your stereotypical ideas of vanilla sex being nothing more than objectification and mutual masterbation to be way off base and very narrow minded.


'masterbation': Does that support my claim, or oppose it?

I don't know... I like to exaggerate the effect to get people thinking. That's the thing... if you try being really accurate, you come off as being really vague. If you try being really specific, you come across as being 'narrow minded' or simplistic or otherwise.

You sadist... cutting me with both sides of the blade!

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