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Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 5:13:25 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		For those who aren't familiar with Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play is, here is a definition based on my understanding of it.

Before entering in this dynamic, the bottom (or submissive, slave, etc) consents to relinquishing their right to consent to the top (or dominant, mistress/master, etc) who is therefore is in a position to have total control over what happens next.

Now on a personal note, I think that engaging in this type of dynamic requires having a very clear picture of the bottom's limits, soft & hard, fears and desires. It also requires being really in-tune with one another.

This dynamic appeals to me a great deal and I'd say that to date, without formally calling it C/NC (I only discovered the term recently), it's very much how I've been conducting my relationships over the years. But I'm wanting to reflect on this practice (is it a practice? a mindset? a dynamic?) further.

So my questions are the following:


  • Do you think this dynamic has to be limited to a moment, an evening, a scene?
  • Do you think this dynamic can work over the course of a relationship? And if so, are there things that need to be put into place?
  • If you are in this kind of dynamic, how do you live it? What challenges have you had?
  • Since I'm huge on communication, how does communication fit in? I have ideas but I'd like to hear more.


I truly hope this will be a fruitful, open-minded discussion.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove
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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 5:46:34 PM   
CDNWolf


Posts: 11
Joined: 5/3/2010
Status: offline 		Seems to me a great deal of communication needs to taker place and both parties involved need to have a great deal of trust in each other.

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An enigma wrapped in a cloak of darkness

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 5:46:50 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		For me... (and me only)... the guy with the literal engineer's brain...

I find these kind of distinctions to be fantasy (not to be confused with "bad"). I do stuff. Carol either consents or she does not. She cannot do both at once. She might have parts of herself that want something and other parts which do not, but at some point there is a net decision. No matter what sort of agreements have been made before hand, the very instant that she says otherwise, it is suddenly non-consensual. At that point, whatever I am doing becomes rape, assault and battery, domestic violence, or a handful of other crimes (or possibly just plain reprehensible but still legal).

Carol and I have a "consent until you don't" dynamic. I do lots of things that she doesn't want me to do. But we don't fool ourselves into thinking that she hasn't consented. Personally, I find the topic of "consent" to be too important to play word games with. Then again, I seldom play word games in general... back to that literal engineer's brain.

Two interesting points on that...

a) I'm not sure that it's really accurate to say Carol consented. Given her personality and mine, once she married me I was in charge. Or, if there was some point of consent, it happened when we got together as a couple. It's certainly not true that she has much freedom of choice now.
b) For someone with more of a rich and vibrant fantasy life than mine, I can easily see how the idea of not-consenting could add spice to the equation.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 5:59:14 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

  • Do you think this dynamic has to be limited to a moment, an evening, a scene?
    • I think it can be whatever makes the two people in the relationship happy.
    quote:


  • Do you think this dynamic can work over the course of a relationship? And if so, are there things that need to be put into place?
    • Ask me in thirty years. The most important thing that needs to be in place in order for this to work for us is that we have to be the most important people in each others lives.
    quote:


  • If you are in this kind of dynamic, how do you live it? What challenges have you had?
    • I do what he says. If he needs something done or wants something, then that becomes a priority for me mentally and physically. He is also very aware of the fact that I have two children and a business and he's not a dickhead and doesn't make me jump through hoops. He lives in a realistic world and doesn't demand things just because he can and is aware of my responsibilities to others.
    quote:


  • Since I'm huge on communication, how does communication fit in? I have ideas but I'd like to hear more.

    • It's impossible for this kind of dynamic to work without communication. He needs to know where my head is at all times and I need to know where his is.

    - LA


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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:00:49 PM   
    LadyAngelika


    Posts: 8070
    Joined: 7/4/2004
    Status: offline     		Jeff, let's put the term "Consensual/Non-Consensual" aside for a moment Jeff, because really, it's only a term, you've pretty much described in your last 2 points what I've considered it to be.

    I acknowledge there is a end point at some point. Because it is a dynamic, it can be ended by either party at any point, but the challenge, desire, is to keep it going as long as possible for me, working it out and keeping it *up*.

    And I understand that you didn't mean fantasy as bad, but since some of us live it, for some it is reality?

    - LA

    _____________________________

    Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

    (in reply to leadership527)
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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:01:58 PM   
    leadership527


    Posts: 5026
    Joined: 6/2/2008
    Status: offline
    quote:

    Ask me in thirty years. The most important thing that needs to be in place in order for this to work for us is that we have to be the most important people in each others lives.

    Personally, I find that damned near anything works when this statement is true.

    _____________________________

    ~Jeff

    I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
    I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

    (in reply to Aileen1968)
    Profile   Post #: 6
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:03:21 PM   
    LadyAngelika


    Posts: 8070
    Joined: 7/4/2004
    Status: offline     		Thanks so much for your response Aileen. I do appreciate it. As the D-type, I totally agree with this statement and I think that having this similar mindset is what has made it work for me:

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
    I do what he says. If he needs something done or wants something, then that becomes a priority for me mentally and physically. He is also very aware of the fact that I have two children and a business and he's not a dickhead and doesn't make me jump through hoops. He lives in a realistic world and doesn't demand things just because he can and is aware of my responsibilities to others.


    - LA


    _____________________________

    Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:03:51 PM   
    kyraofMists


    Posts: 3292
    Joined: 7/29/2005
    Status: offline     		I really do not like that term and do not use it to refer to our relationship. However, based on other people's descriptions of that term our relationship fits it.

    When I became his, I was no longer allowed to refuse him and continue to stay in the relationship. It isn't a dynamic that only exists in play for us; it exists all the time, no matter where we are or what we are doing. His code to do no harm is necessary for me to be able to be in the relationship with him. I do things that I don't want to do or don't enjoy, but he is not going to harm me.

    Our relationship started out this way and I don't know any other way to relate to him. Within the first week of our relationship, he had me do many things that pushed me and were things that I had on my list of things that I didn't want to do. When things get stressful and I feel pushed really hard, I focus on the knowledge that he will not intentionally harm me.

    Knight's Kyra


    _____________________________

    "Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

    (in reply to LadyAngelika)
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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:11:23 PM   
    LadyAngelika


    Posts: 8070
    Joined: 7/4/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    I really do not like that term and do not use it to refer to our relationship. However, based on other people's descriptions of that term our relationship fits it.


    I can understand that. Because my path to BDSM was carved outside of a community (this is pretty much the only link to a community I have), I tend to hear terms and say "hey, that sounds like what I'm doing". One of the reasons I started this thread is to better understand how people live this or what the whole thing evokes in them.

    I'm really appreciating the comments to date. Thank you for sharing that kyra.

    - LA

    _____________________________

    Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

    (in reply to kyraofMists)
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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:31:37 PM   
    leadership527


    Posts: 5026
    Joined: 6/2/2008
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
    Jeff, let's put the term "Consensual/Non-Consensual" aside for a moment Jeff, because really, it's only a term, you've pretty much described in your last 2 points what I've considered it to be.
    Yeah, i thought that when I read Kyra's post. I wish I had thought to say exactly that. Oh well.

    quote:

    I acknowledge there is a end point at some point. Because it is a dynamic, it can be ended by either party at any point, but the challenge, desire, is to keep it going as long as possible for me, working it out and keeping it *up*.

    *nods* Certainly it is true that I push Carol farther and farther past anything she ever would've considered a boundary. And in that way, we grow closer and closer together. I was being pedantic, I admit it. But I did readily admit in my first post that my brain just doesn't work that way.

    quote:

    And I understand that you didn't mean fantasy as bad, but since some of us live it, for some it is reality?
    Again, it is non-sensical in a literal interpretation to say that fantasy can be lived enough that it is reality. If that is true, then it is no longer fantasy, it is reality. I think if my brain worked more like a poet's or an artist's, these sort of statement would make sense to me. Again, not saying that it's bad or wrong, it just isn't how I process things.

    I'll give you an example. When I dress Carol up in silks and I put some music on and have her dance for me. I think a lot of people would think of that as a "scene" and honestly I couldn't argue with them. But to me, it's just making my slave girl dance for me.

    OK, now that I've woken up and smelled the interpretive coffee, let me take a look at your questions...

    • Yeah, we live a C/NC life.
    • For us, it is not limited in any way
    • Yes, I think it can work over the course of a relationship
    • Challenges? Too much NC stuff makes Carol a cranky slavegirl which directly impacts my happiness. In addition, in the beginning Carol just thought I was doing this stuff to make her jump through hoops. That built up resentment. More recently, when she understood that there were two specific reasons I did these things and both were beneficial to her, it removed that resentment. Even more recently, she "surrendered" and no longer bothers to think about why I do or don't do something.
    • Communication is such a broad topic. For us at least, communication is at the heart of everything. Other than a broad and vague "it is key" statement, I honestly don't know how to answer that.

    Now, to make a clarification, my point (a) above, wasn't meant to be faux non-consent. I actually have begun to question whether it is responsible of me to think in terms of Carol consenting. More and more I think that's implying she has choices which she does not... at least not without some really radical things happening in our marriage. Carol's personality is very much like that of Kamala's. I'm more and more coming to the thought that the only choice she has ever had was the choice to marry me (again, ignoring bizarre scenarios that involve me becoming someone other than I am).

    _____________________________

    ~Jeff

    I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
    I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

    (in reply to LadyAngelika)
    Profile   Post #: 10
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:35:57 PM   
    kyraofMists


    Posts: 3292
    Joined: 7/29/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: leadership527
    a) I'm not sure that it's really accurate to say Carol consented. Given her personality and mine, once she married me I was in charge. Or, if there was some point of consent, it happened when we got together as a couple. It's certainly not true that she has much freedom of choice now.


    I think this is an important point. I don't know any other way to interact with him. Who he is resonates with who I am and the only real options are to do his will or to stop interacting with him. How do I consent to be who I am? I can't imagine not being who I am. Even when he has me do things that I don't want to do, don't like to do or that I find emotionally difficult, it is way more fulfilling than having authority within my life.

    Knight's Kyra

    _____________________________

    "Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

    (in reply to leadership527)
    Profile   Post #: 11
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 6:54:41 PM   
    LadyAngelika


    Posts: 8070
    Joined: 7/4/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    Challenges? Too much NC stuff makes Carol a cranky slavegirl which directly impacts my happiness. In addition, in the beginning Carol just thought I was doing this stuff to make her jump through hoops. That built up resentment. More recently, when she understood that there were two specific reasons I did these things and both were beneficial to her, it removed that resentment. Even more recently, she "surrendered" and no longer bothers to think about why I do or don't do something.

    This is key as well. It's a tricky balance but this is where it is key to be in-tune with one another.

    And for the record, I like your original post. I do very much appreciate hearing from people who see thing differently than me and want to explain it to me the way you did. I appreciated it a lot.

    - LA

    _____________________________

    Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 7:04:27 PM   
    NuevaVida


    Posts: 6707
    Joined: 8/5/2008
    Status: offline     		I'm not a huge fan of the term myself, but what I think of when I hear it is, there are certain things the Dom can do that were not "negotiated" in the beginning.  In other words, "I didn't actually consent to this particular activity, but since I consented to do everything you require or me, then I'll do it."  It describes, to me, an umbrella consent of anything - even things we never specifically discussed.  Maybe it's a more acceptable way of saying "no limits?"

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


    • Do you think this dynamic has to be limited to a moment, an evening, a scene?
    No, I don't think this dynamic has to be limited.  Many people (and some have posted on this thread) live a life in which they have consented overall, to whatever their owner's will might be at any particular time.

    quote:


    • Do you think this dynamic can work over the course of a relationship? And if so, are there things that need to be put into place?
    Yes I do, and as has been mentioned, huge communication and a genuine caring of the other person should be established, first.

    quote:


    • If you are in this kind of dynamic, how do you live it? What challenges have you had?
    My last relationship fit what has been described here.  My biggest challenge is that he did not always have my well being in mind, and I experienced physical, mental and emotional harm as a result.

    quote:


    • Since I'm huge on communication, how does communication fit in? I have ideas but I'd like to hear more.
    Ideally, the slave in this dynamic would be fully (or nearly fully) "transparent" to the owner.

    I don't know that I'd describe my current relationship like this, but then, quite honestly, I don't really think of descriptors and definitions regarding my relationship.  I do what he wants. Period.  He has my best interest at heart.  He avoids things that would cause me harm.  We talk to each other about anything and everything.  I don't say no to him, but we communicate a great deal about how things might affect me, him and us.  We don't "scene" - he enjoys me as his slave and makes use of that, and I am fulfilled by serving him and submitting to him.  The undercurrent of all of this is that we love each other very much, and it's our love and respect for each other that makes our relationship so special and safe for us.  All we do stems from it.



    _____________________________

    Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 7:07:12 PM   
    leadership527


    Posts: 5026
    Joined: 6/2/2008
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
    I don't know that I'd describe my current relationship like this, but then, quite honestly, I don't really think of descriptors and definitions regarding my relationship.  I do what he wants. Period.  He has my best interest at heart.  He avoids things that would cause me harm.  We talk to each other about anything and everything.  I don't say no to him, but we communicate a great deal about how things might affect me, him and us.  We don't "scene" - he enjoys me as his slave and makes use of that, and I am fulfilled by serving him and submitting to him.  The undercurrent of all of this is that we love each other very much, and it's our love and respect for each other that makes our relationship so special and safe for us.  All we do stems from it.

    beautiful... simply beautiful.

    _____________________________

    ~Jeff

    I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
    I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

    (in reply to NuevaVida)
    Profile   Post #: 14
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 7:12:43 PM   
    NuevaVida


    Posts: 6707
    Joined: 8/5/2008
    Status: offline     		Thank you, Jeff.  This is the first relationship I've been in, in which love was such a key factor.  It's the first time I have felt emotionally safe.  I think because of that, I am able to appreciate it the way I do.

    _____________________________

    Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 7:55:25 PM   
    belladevine


    Posts: 437
    Joined: 10/23/2007
    Status: offline     		I have never really heard of any body in the BDSM world using the term consentual/non consenual.

    A Master/ slave relationship is the same to me no matter what anybody else wants to call it.

    I honestly think ALL relationships are pretty much the same......take it or leave it.

    All relationships have some element of consent and non consent.

    I think the real question of this topic should be.....

    How many ways can a person re-word a question about consent and limits?


    (in reply to NuevaVida)
    Profile   Post #: 16
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 8:00:10 PM   
    KnightofMists


    Posts: 7149
    Joined: 7/29/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:


    ......His code to do no harm is necessary for me to be able to be in the relationship with him.



    To open a locked door you require the right key if you hope to enjoy everything that is with in the room.

    Of course... you could just kick the door down... but part of the enjoyment of the room is the door itself. It is also knowing that you have the key that no one else has to open the door.

    Being who I am is the Key to enjoy everything that is Kyra and Alandra. I think this is why I don't particularly care for the term Consensual/Non-consensual. It seems to imply that there is a conscious thoughtful consideration involved in making the choice to consent to be in the relationship. I believe that sometimes it's more about an awareness that is obtained and accepted by those involved. Once that awareness is obtained and accepted it makes consent irrelevant. You can't deny that the key opens the door anymore than you can deny that you own someone or are owned. It seems that it's more about authentic self-identification of what is IS, and less about consent.



    _____________________________

    Knight of Mists

    An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

    (in reply to kyraofMists)
    Profile   Post #: 17
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/4/2010 8:33:40 PM   
    Kana


    Posts: 6676
    Joined: 10/24/2006
    Status: offline     		We've operated within a TPE for 3 years that would fall under your definition of non-consent. Essentially she has no rights other than those I choose to allow, which is how we both like it and want it. I would say that it works because of the following reasons:
    1-We are both rational adults. The importance of this cannot be understated.
    2-We have similar values and morals and both of us live life's based in spiritual principles.
    3-We communicate, a lot, about damn near everything.
    Edited to add
    4-Oh yeah, she's an awesome fucking slave. That helps lots lots lots.


    < Message edited by Kana -- 5/4/2010 8:46:11 PM >

    _____________________________

    "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
    HST

    (in reply to KnightofMists)
    Profile   Post #: 18
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 1:59:55 AM   
    RCdc


    Posts: 8674
    Status: offline     		Chalk me up as a person who finds this term pretty bad.  Not only is it totally confusing, it is simplifying something complicated.  If relationships were that simple and easy, everyone would be in them.

    It's simply another term to try and make a relationship presentable.
    I didn't choose to get into a relationship with Master - it occured due to relinquishing authority.  Sometimes, you(generic) just do not have a choice over something.  You can fight it and you can even lie about it to yourself, but it's got nothing to do with consent and everything to do with acceptance.

    People feel safe when they feel in control.  This phrase just highlights that need to believe that as humans, we are sentient enough to not allow our inner workings to exist without being able to control them.

    the.dark.

    _____________________________
    RC&dc


    love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

    (in reply to LadyAngelika)
    Profile   Post #: 19
    RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 2:03:20 AM   
    aldompdx


    Posts: 538
    Joined: 10/24/2004
    Status: offline     		Let us see here...
    - Consent to not consent is consent.
    - Non-consensual consent is a dynamic form of consent. (two-way).
    - Consensual non-consent involves a great deal of consensual communication. (communicate = two way).
    - The non-consensual imposition of another's power is merely "play."

    Sounds to me like you have your personal power base, concepts of "play," and dynamics of delegating authority in a rather confusing situation.

    Surrender is by ongoing free choice from self will. By definition, BDSM requires informed consent (SSC, RACK, SSICK). Non-consensual interaction is not play, but abuse. Consent is not "non-consensual." A similar menatilty exists with people who imagine limits and boundaries to be non-limiting (i.e., "soft"). Presumably, this website does not support criminal activity and conspiracy.

    There is no such thing as "power exchange," total or partial. One cannot give away their own personal power. To do so would mean such power is not personal, but of law or society or physical object (e.g. fuel). One can only delegate the authority to exercise personal power. Such delegation of authority is never irrevocable.

    The ultimate question is:
    Is it okay to be a masochist who chooses to encourage abuse without giving consent?

    Answer: No. Not in the context of BDSM. However, you may prefer an alternative psychological pathology of self abuse, by choosing another person to inflict abuse upon you, as your own self-abuse surrogate. And, that is not sane. Promptly get professional help.

    If you seek validation or approval to inflict abuse upon others without their consent, then that is called -- CRIME. Such sadistic criminals typically suffer from narcissistic personality disorder, or some form of psychosis.

    I find it rather remarkable how many people here seek approval to abuse themself or others. If you are an abuser, GET HELP!



    < Message edited by aldompdx -- 5/5/2010 2:14:09 AM >

    (in reply to LadyAngelika)
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